Review Group discussion
Advice
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So what is a review and how do I write one?
Oh dear, Douglas, you've made me laugh again - me, wise? If you only knew how far that is from the truth!I've seen a few instances of authors replying. It quickly degenerates into very unedifying slanging matches which does nothing but harm to the author's reputation. Besides, reviews are by readers, for readers: an author is wise indeed to stand well clear of that particular forum. Read the reviews and take what you can from them, but from a distance. Sometimes you'll feel furious and want to sound off about it - that's what friends are for. Just keep in mind that it is the reviewer who looks bad, not the author, when a blatantly unfair review is posted.
I suppose I'd better go read that review now...
Well I never - in my Changes books I have a dog called Deefor...
How funny. I know several dogs named Deeohgee, though.
Douglas wrote: "It's a sunny morning here in Paris this morning, after a couple of days of stormy weather, and as usual the first thing I did was to check out how the world was receiving by literary genius.What a..."
I believe there is a lesson here: if you must have a negative review, get it from someone whose writing is so frigging hard to read that no one will understand what the complaints are.
I hope I never have to read a book written by this reviewer! Oy!
Thanks for the positive take on this Sue and everyone I hope I won't be stigmatised because of the length of my tail.Cunning play on words, did you notice?
Well, after much thought and soul-searching (and a line-edit from a friend who is "good" at it), I'm getting a professional edit and going to spend the money changing my book on createspace. It is simply too hard and embarrassing to leave it as it is. I have more books coming out this next year and don't wish all of them tainted by my woeful editing skills.
My first couple of books were professionally edited. The good thing is, you learn a ton and it makes your later work better right off the bat - plus, you have an idea what to look for when you are self-editing. So it's an investment in all future books as well as the current one!
Gwen and K I have a feeling it may be a good idea for me to do the same, any suggestions where to look for a good service?
I still eschew paying out for an editor who will most likely make changes I don't agree with and not notice errors I thought I was paying to be corrected. I'd rather the errors were my own and my cash (limited in supply as it is) were still in my pocket. Apart from that, how do you select an editor when they all seem to offer slightly different styles of editing? And none of them seem to offer the type of editing you want. And then they say you also need someone else to do the proof reading...
Well, my first two were edited by an editor assigned by my publisher (Suzanne Baldwin). Fortunately for me, she was great to work with and I agreed with 95% of what she said. The other 5% I ignored. However, I had an odd experience, as I've related before, with another editor to whom I'd given a previously-edited piece of work (done by Suzanne) which I received back from him re-edited so heavily that it produced an entirely different feel and rhythm. I was kind of shocked and it became immediately obvious to me that editing is an art, not a science, and heavily dependent upon the particular editor's own preferences for style and substance. What you might be looking for instead is a proofreader, followed by a beta reader. You can get beta reading free from some groups here on Goodreads and proofing is cheaper than editing if you can't do it yourself. (Alpha reading is a read-through by a professional with an eye to structure, organization, etc., and beta reading is a read-through by your intended audience, a reader who will give you feedback on whether the story works, how the characters are perceived, things they didn't understand, etc.)
Susanne wrote: "I had my self-published book edited. I still found mistakes that the editor had missed. Now I found a mistake that had resulted from an earlier edit. I've read my book so many times that I can't pi..."Your comments reflect my own sentiments. I don't pay for editing either but I do spend an enormous amount of time & effort reviewing my manuscript in several formats in an effort to eliminate errors. I also have a couple of fantastic readers/editors who go over it for me several times too. They are great friends and I'm lucky they are happy to do it. I trust their opinions and their help is invaluable.
No. I have a very good writing group. This book, and all of mine, go through extensive rewrites. What happened is a there was one last line-edit by an outside friend that ended up adding in lots of little typos. That line-edit was not changing story but just little stuff. But a lot of little stuff. It did end up making some things a little better and catching some mistakes, but put many little mistakes in. Things you can't catch with spell check or grammar checking. I screwed up. I should have then re-read the whole thing aloud, which I didn't. For heaven's sake, my husband is a well-known science editor and one of my friends is a great line-editor. I just hate to lean on them.
To Douglas: I'm trying out one of the recommended people from Awesome Indies. He did a one chapter line-edit to let me see what he would do. It looked pretty clean to me. He didn't do anything weird.That's one of the things you can ask for is a sample of there work.
By the way, I apologize for turning this conversation. It wasn't my intention.
Gwen wrote: "By the way, I apologize for turning this conversation. It wasn't my intention."No apology needed, Gwen. These threads are here as organic entities for us to use and abuse as we feel is fitting at the time. The way this conversation was developing it would have been weird to break it off at some artificial point and continue elsewhere just because it didn't come directly under the 'review' category. Let's face it, the editing/proofing (or lack thereof) will directly affect the reviews you receive ;)
This first paragraph might count as marketing - ignore it if that annoys you! I have a friend who wants to start a side business with her editing and proofreading savvy, now that she has retired as a professional story analyst. If you want her contact info, message me. She would edit at whatever level you requested, and no other; and would be reasonably priced because trying to build business. I know what you mean about reluctance to lean on friends. I didn't get my edit-savvy friend involved with the proofing of my latest novel and now here I am contacting readers to offer them a less typo-riddled version.
Thanks, I appreciate the offer. I have already hired someone and hope to have the whole thing done very soon. There are a couple of contests I want to enter and I'd like a clean, respectable book. :-)
A good way to improve the success rate of editing your own work is to leave it sat on your hard disk for a couple of months while you write something else. That will make it more likely you can read it with fresher eyes.A good way to improve proofreading success is to read it backwards. That way you're not distracted by the story, each sentence stands alone. I also proofread a printed version as I tend to skim read what's on screen.
Then run a final spellcheck/grammar check. It's easy to reject suggestions and may well show you the last few errors that you missed when you got tired or distracted.
And definitely read it aloud, especially dialogue.
Reading it aloud is key for the final edit. I've done all the rest.
I would like to address a concern I have regarding reviews that offer suggestions on how the story could have been improved if the author would have added more of this information. My concern is the reviewer is assuming that the author had the information but did not include it. It is a dangerous assumption and identifies shortages in the story to possible readers. As an author I want people to give me an honest review so I can improve my craft. However, I can't improve on something I didn't have available.
Perhaps a disclaimer, such as "If the author had additional information on his father's childhood presenting it would have improved the story." It takes on a different meaning if I said "The story could have been improved if the author expanded on his father's childhood." The second statement is an assumption but to a potential reader is presents a negative element.
I'm OK now! I just needed to dump my thoughts somewhere and here among comrades of the pen I knew they would understand. Bless you my brothers and sisters .... and I'll take your comments off the the air.
I'm late to responding to this thread but here's something I've used before that worked well for me. The thing is really once a book goes live on Amazon any bad reviews can kill your book sells or slow them down dramatically especially when it's first published and goes live.When this happened to me I actually unpublished the book, made a few changes(formatting, added a few more pages)tweaked the title alittle and made a new book cover and republished it under a new title. It's important to have 3-5 positive reviews ready to go once the book goes live. Hopefully you can at least find that many people that like your book and willing to leave a good review. The new version did much better and having 3-5 positive reviews at the beginning definitely helped with future sells....good luck! :)
Interesting thought. I have great reviews...just that some of them point out the errors.
I'm new here and have some questions. The guidelines for reviews obviously are for novels. Is this group interested only in novels, or are non fiction memoirs and self help/how to books welcome as well. Interesting discussions here. I hope I can fit in.
Les, there is only criterion: 'is your ebook available for purchase (or free)'? No restrictions at all as regards fiction/non-fiction/genre/poetry/length - if your work is published that's good enough for us :)We don't have time (or funds in most cases) to allow for snail mail delivery of printed copies to our international reviewers. For the most part we're talking self-published, but that doesn't have to be the case.
Have I missed anything out? Oh yes, we don't expect you to be anything other than who you are. There's no need to distort yourself to try and 'fit in' as there's no such thing as a 'standard' to fit in to anyway. Our very diversity is what makes life interesting.
Thanks Jay for doing all that you do to keep this review group running in a professional manner.
Gwen wrote: "Well, after much thought and soul-searching (and a line-edit from a friend who is "good" at it), I'm getting a professional edit and going to spend the money changing my book on createspace. It is ..."Hi Gwen,
Your book received great reviews on goodreads. You should never doubt yourself.
Susanne
Lori wrote: "Thanks Jay for doing all that you do to keep this review group running in a professional manner."Aw, shucks, you'll make me blush...
You're very welcome, Lori :)
I have just upgraded from a reader profile to an author account!! Woohoo!! My first publication, a short story, An Angel for Maggie, will be published in a holiday anthology, A Season of Joy. It will be available as a free download on Smashwords as of November 29, 2013. I am still hard at work on my first novel, a mystery/suspense, as well as my review blog, which is now on my profile here. Thanks to all my good friends for all the support!! (Sorry, Jay--I know this is a bit off topic, but I just had to share!)
Hi Rebecca, congratulations!! I well understand your desire to share your news with the world. Well done :)There are two places you might like to use in future: The General topic is for anything you want to post about really, either on an existing thread or start your own. There's also You're Not Alone topic, for discussions about specific writing problems/challenges you may be facing that you'd like some input from other members on, or for a bit of basic chatter there is a thread 'Want to chat?'.
Jay wrote: "Hi Rebecca, congratulations!! I well understand your desire to share your news with the world. Well done :)There are two places you might like to use in future: The General topic is for anything ..."
Thanks so much, Jay. :)
Vipin wrote: "I have made my book available free by coupon on smashwords. Coupon code is ZM79C , it is valid for a limited period.
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view...
You can also ask directly at vi..."
Thanks, Vipin, but you're on the wrong thread. Free book offers go on... Free Book Offers ;)
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Jay wrote: "Amazon rules are certainly rather strange at times - not recognisable as consistent or fair in many circumstances. Hey ho, love 'em or loathe 'em we deal with it all as best we can. And they gave m..."It makes me sad that we are forced by economic considerations and the superior publishing tools they provide, to deal with any company that treats its employees so shabbily.
I shall probably get barred from BM as some of my friends have, for such forthright criticism, but I saw an undercover film of Amazon working conditions, and it made me realise the 'third world' is here, now, for many unskilled people.
On reviewing rules I posted a review which they accepted, but the review was never published. I assumed it was because I had not purchased it but been given it as a review copy.
Rebekah wrote: "As someone who is brand new to the review groups, I can't tell you how glad I am that you posted this, Jay! I've reviewed plenty of books over the years and I've done critiques in fiction writing ..."
Is that how we are brought up reading I wonder, Rebekah? I read first (they say I was not taught) convalescing in the country with two elderly maiden aunts, both retired teachers. They were both excellent teachers despite one having graduated through the pupil-teacher system, and I still surprise myself 64 years later knowing the names of wild flowers they showed me on our walks. Their training was 'never leave a book unfinished. Someone thought it was worth publishing'.
It means I have read some self-published books that I struggle to finish, but I always do. The single exception to finishing was in college when we had to read and write a critique of Virginia Woolf's The Waves . I got as far as page 7, but then it only started on page 6. :-(
I had the top mark for my review though!
Some books now I set aside and read in portions between interesting ones, but I hope to complete the reading of all I read. I can learn from the terrible ones, what not to do!
Rebecca wrote: "As a writer, we should all know the basics. I don't worry about a typo or a stray comma..that happens. I would only grade down if it was apparent that the author did not have a grasp of basic gramm..."But using way instead of weigh is not basic grammar, it is not being able to spell!
I'm afraid we have bred that into people by the use of computers and texting. (Texting because it just plain encourages things like rumin8 and 4play so that the spelling is never learnt*, computers because my study of early learning, reading and writing methods, led me to conclude that we learn much spelling by the physical sensation of forming the word on the page.)
My elder son (the author) is dyslexic, and his favourite tool is the "spool-chicken"/"spill-chucker" as he calls it. I am a right-hander with a lifelong left-handed occupation, the opposite of dyslexic until now, when I have late-onset dyslexia caused by my occupation and by a physical damage caused by it, which means I can no longer write by hand, and also hit all the wrong keys.
Having made all those excuses, I hate misspellings and poor grammar, and trawl my own work to eradicate them, and wince when I encounter them in the writing of others.
*(learned for most US readers although learnt according to Webster's.)
Candice wrote: "The issue of typos or grammatical errors is a significant one for indies. I try to give a fair amount of leeway, but, if there are many errors then that does look unprofessional."" I acknowledge my difference from big publishers by charging low prices in recognition that I'm selling the "Ford Focus" book not the "Porsche" book."
Oh, Candice "Ford Focus" is beyond some of us: "Trabant" nearer the mark! ;-)
Good news! I was savaged when I published my first book. Quite rightly so but being word blind I just could not see the faults everyone referred to. They just did not make themselves evident.So I am reconstructing the book with the help of an editor who has opened my eyes to what everyone else was criticising. When it is finished I hope someone will give it a critique and I will give a first class reference for my terrific editor.
Beware Jay, I am still swimming around under the surface :)
Jay wrote: "First of all I’m going to talk about reviews as written by readers who have purchased books from one of the ebook sellers.Let’s start off by clarifying what the purpose of a review actually is ou..."
I'd also like to stress that the point is not to fill the review with spoilers. I had one reviewer tell the entire plot of my book, even the big surprise, rather like telling someone before they viewed the movie that Darth Vader was Luke's father. If you tell the reader everything, why should they bother reading it?
Gee wrote: "Hi Friends, Our Book is already in promo and free for today and tomorrow only. Grab your copies now and leave us a review :)"
This is the wrong place, Gee - please move it here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
You're also not allowed to ask for reviews in return for free copies.
I note that you suggest the following when reading unfamiliar genres:CHARACTERS:
STORY:
PACE AND STRUCTURE:
USE OF LANGUAGE:
NARRATIVE VOICE:
DIALOGUE:
SETTINGS:
THEMES:
Could you give similar advice for reviewing Non-Fiction? I feel that the last non-fiction review I did I got too hung up on the content (which I disagreed with) and not the book itself as a presentation of facts / opinions. I would suggest:
AUTHOR CREDENTIALS:
TOPIC:
STRUCTURE:
USE OF LANGUAGE:
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF ALTERNATIVE VIEWS / CRITICISMS:
ACADEMIC vs POPULAR (i.e. STYLE):
STRENGTH OF ARGUMENT:
CONCLUSIONS:
What do you think?
I have just joined this group.How do I get to review books, and how do I get my own book reviewed?
Join the next review gruop, we currently have an 18+ group looking for members (group 48) and group 49, a general group will be available in the next few days.
Thanks, E.What do I do to join one of those groups.
Go to the 'review rounds' section, see if a review round has 'now forming' next to it and sign up with you author page link and your book link.
Is it expected that as reviewers, we should give full disclosure that we received a free copy of the book in exchange for our review?I suppose it also wouldn't hurt to say that the review is non-reciprocal, and that we never promised or implied that the review would necessarily be positive.
The concern is that if only the favorable reviews end up containing such disclosures, readers may come to believe that only the unfavorable ones are "organic".
John
I noticed some have a seperate account on Amazon to review. They don't use their own writers account. Is this advisable?(I don't know if this is the right treat, if not, please let me know)
Its up to the individual, some people set up another account, some don't. I know one author in the group who has three goodreads/amazon accounts.Two are 'author' accounts, one is a reviewing account. Personally I think it makes it more difficult to coordinate activity, it's bad enough keeping up with goodreads, amazon, website, blogs, facebook twitter, marketing, writing, reviewing, editing, betareading, networking, oh and life/work/family without adding multiple accounts to the mix.
I can assure you I could have thought of a thing or two this morning :)
It just messed up my breakfast so I had to blast off, but you are right, the smuck gave me three stars so I'll leave it there. (Till I meet him, but that will be another book!) Thanks for the comment.