Ask Our Grammar "Experts" Showing 501-550 of 1,580

[Ken, Moderator]

I use dashes willy nilly, but that's improper use up there. Also, the hyphen is used incorrectly. Who is the writer -- John Updike?

[Ruth]

Yes & yes, S.

[Anna]

Tell me more.

[Ken, Moderator]

Yes & yes & YES. How's that?

[Anna]

A lot better than a list of 'no's

[Sarah]

It's from a newspaper article. Ah! The death of copy editors...

[Ken, Moderator]

... A Miss Marple mystery, that.

[Stacie]

Here's a grammar question for you: Is the period at the end of a list of ingredients really necessary? Is it a style thing thus considered correct? I have a friend who's starting a business making her own lip balm, and I suggested she take off the period at the end of the list. Her response was that all ingredient listings have the period at the end, so she's leaving it on. Your thoughts?

[John]

It provides a sort of 'closure', rather than leaving the list open-endedly hanging.

[Ruth]

I own a gazillion cookbooks and I have never seen a period at the end of a list of ingredients.

3 eggs, beaten
2 cups brown sugar
4 cups flour
2 teaspoons cinnamon

Only if you were writing it as a sentence, then a period at the end would be necessary.

The ingredients for this cake are 3 beaten eggs, 2 cups brown sugar, 4 cups flour, and 2 teaspoons cinnamon.

But who lists ingredients that way?

[John]

Ruth,

I believe Stacie is referring to a product's "contents" listing, rather than a recipe, such as:

Ingredients: sugar, monosodium glutamate, eye of newt, cod liver oil, ginger.

[Stacie]

I am, but shouldn't it be approached the same way?

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

It should have a full stop.

[Ruth]

Aha. Just checked on some of the stuff in my larder. They all have a period after the list of ingredients.

[Ken, Moderator]

I think it's because the list of ingredients looks like a "sentence" while the cookbook ingredients look like a list. Period in the first case, nunca in the second.

[Ruth]

I think you're right, NE.

[Ken, Moderator]

Yes, you can end a sentence in a preposition. There is no rule against it -- just a prejudice against it on the part of a certain grammar book writer once upon a time.

And "all right" is still the way to go, try as "alright" might. I know, I know. It's a coming, but until it's in the dictionaries, I will remain...

Stubbornly yours,
NE

[David]

Can you end a sentence with a proposition?

[Carol]

So is it awhile or a while or alot or a lot? I have used both.

[Ken, Moderator]

It's always "a lot" (two words).

Re: "a while" vs. "awhile" from Bryan Garner's Garner's Modern American Usage:

"As a noun, spell it as two words . As an adverb, spell it as one ."

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

NE said....."And "all right" is still the way to go, try as "alright" might. I know, I know. It's a coming, but until it's in the dictionaries, I will remain...

Stubbornly yours,
NE "

CollinsEnglish Dictionary 1979 Edition, p41: al+right, adv. a variant spelling of all right.

So there!!!

[David]

Aright aready, this is strictly from hunger!

[Ruth]

It's fine to end a sentence in a preposition if that's the least awkward way to say what you need to say. Often in more formal writing it sounds best to keep the preposition before its object ("This is the argument with which I beg to differ"), while informally that would sound stuffy ("He left with the same girl with whom he came"--better "He left with the same girl he came with").

But do take note: many end-of-sentence prepositions are actually functioning as adverbs. For example, "She closed her eyes and jumped down." If you keep that in mind, Anna, seeing such constructions may be less excruciating to your grammatical sensibilities.

I'm a lot less hyper about grammatical infelicities in published or otherwise public venues than I used to be. I think it's because I edit six days a week, which calms my instinct to correct & gives it plenty of vent. Makes me nicer to be around.

[Ken, Moderator]

Oops. "Alright" is in my Webster's, too. Maybe I mean the usage books. Just out this year, Garner's Modern American Usage says:

"Alright for all right has never been accepted as standard in American English. Gertrude Stein used the shorter form, but that is not much of a recommendation... This short version may be gaining a shadowy acceptance in British English (where appearances in print are more common than in American English)."

On his "Language Change Index," Garner gives alright a Stage 2 rating (though I think it should be a Stage 4 or at least a Stage 3). His ratings are as follows:

Stage 1: Rejected.
Stage 2: Widely shunned.
Stage 3: Widespread, but...
Stage 4: Ubiquitous, but...
Stage 5: Fully accepted.

[Cecily]

Of course you can end a sentence with a preoposition. The prohibition was invented, along with many other grammar rules, when the first grammar books were published, and based on Latin grammar. In Latin, they do "pre" (before) position the noun, but English is not the same language. As Churchill may (or may not have) said, it's the sort of silly prescriptivism "up with which I will not put". And it's fine to start a sentence with a conjunction too.

Great writers, past and present do these things because often they are the clearest and most elegant way to express what they want to say.

[Ken, Moderator]

That's exactly what I was speaking of. And you said it so well, too.

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

Alright is definitely a Stage 3 or 4 in English English!! Alright?

[Ken, Moderator]

Alwrong.

[Summer]

Anna wrote: "Alright. I have just started a fight in another group over this age old question. Can you end a sentence in a preposition? I think not."
My The Elements of Style has nothing on the subject, so I am inclined to say officially anything goes. My personal opinion is that, especially in dialogue, forcing the preposition forward looks awkward and overly formal. “From where did you come?” seems like it ought to be said by a gentleman in a powdered wig. Same said reference, though mine is admittedly an older edition, indicates that “all right” is properly written as two words. I consider “alright” to be fine in conversational use. I wouldn’t use it in an APA paper, but this is a web forum. We can relax into slightly non-standard I think. Pull up a cushion and have some tea.

Newengland wrote: “Alwrong.”
I admire your admission. ‘Twas stylishly done.

[Summer]

Cecily wrote: "And it's fine to start a sentence with a conjunction too."

Even "but"? I'm sure I was taught not; though I can't find any proof.

I'm finding a disconcertingly large amount of writing style seems to be taste oriented. I've tutored for the local community college this past semester. One of the students I worked with told me her professor required them to repeat the sentences of their thesis paragraph word for word as topic sentences in the succeeding paragraphs. At first, I thought she must have misunderstood, but she showed me a paper which the professor had marked all the paragraphs with that instruction. I found it terribly distracting as a reader. Also, it seemed a little insulting to the students. If I were a teacher of English Composition II, I would be trying to make the students enjoy words and writing, not make them spit out the same exact words over again. I know our county has low literacy rates, but the job that professor signed up for is teaching. I think she's doing it wrong. Of course, the job I signed up for was tutoring, so I did what was necessary (with gritted teeth) to help that student improve her grade.

[Cecily]

Yes, "sentence initial c-ordinators" are fine, though that is not to recommend reckless usage! Look around. It's commonly used throughout the history of written English and isn't mentioned in early grammar books (and even some modern ones).

The prohibition possibly arose from school teachers fed up with reading things such as "We went to the park. And I fed the ducks. And I flew my kite. But it broke." A blanket rule is easier to teach than a real feel for language.

[David]

Churchill: "Ending a sentence with a preposition is a situation up with which I shall not put."

Remember the phrasal verb . . .

[Carol]

When I was a child I thought like a child, now that I am older , ah shoot, I still think like a child.

[Ken, Moderator]

Yes, a lot of these rules are forbidden in schools, but we must remember that schools create and feed their own monsters (like the 5-paragraph essay) typically seen NOWHERE in the real world of writing.

Bottom line: Real writers occasionally end a sentence with a preposition, more often start one with a conjunction, and even raise hell when they feel it's alright. Oh. And they use contractions a lot, too. And the pronoun "I," which schools say do not belong in a formal (oh, my!) essay. And write fragments. And use comma splices, they just do.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

David wrote: "Can you end a sentence with a proposition?"

Sometimes it's right to end a sentence with a preposition:

References for those who want them:

1. Huddleston, R. and Pullman, G.K. A Student's Introduction to English Grammar. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2006, p. 20, 137-8.
2. Strumpf, M. and Douglas, A. The Grammar Bible. New York: Henry Holt and Company, 2004, p. 231, 217.
3. Thurman, S. The Only Grammar Book You'll Ever Need. Avon: Adams Media, 2003, p.32.
4. Stilman, A. Grammatically Correct. Cincinnati: Writer's Digest Books, 2004, p.264.

One of the reasons the "myth" that it's not okay to end a sentence with a preposition developed because people considered English an inferior language when compared to Latin. So they tried to force Latin grammar rules onto English. The problem with that as I'm sure everyone knows, is that English is a Germanic language, not a Romance language. The rules of Latin simply did not apply to English.

Winston Churchill's "That is the sort of thing up with which I will not put!" is correct when stated, "That is the sort of thing I will not put up with." He wasn't ending his sentence with an adverb, but with an adverbial participle, and it's okay to end a sentence with an adverbial participle.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

Cecily wrote: "Of course you can end a sentence with a preoposition. The prohibition was invented, along with many other grammar rules, when the first grammar books were published, and based on Latin grammar. In ..."

I totally agree, Cecily. And I just repeated some of what you said first.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

carol (akittykat) wrote: "So is it awhile or a while or alot or a lot? I have used both."

<<>>

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/awh...

[Carol]

It is still all Greek, Latin whatever. I get so confused. I have a pea brain when it comes to Grammar.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

I like it a lot, but then, I'm an editor, so I'd better know grammar. I don't always make my posts perfect grammatically, but I do have to know it for work.

[Carol]

I think I have said this before , my husband and children are always laughing at my Grammar. English is a second language for hubby and he knows more then me.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

English is my husband's second language, too, after French, but he's still a lot better in French than he is in English. He has a heavy accent and while his spoken English if fine, his written English is terrible. But he's sweet, so we all forgive him for not trying harder.

[Carol]

My husband went to all English schools in his country, and being married to me, he has very little accent.

[Ken, Moderator]

Sweetness goes a long way, especially in a mean world.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

Yes, it does, NE.

Carol, my husband never spoke a word of English until about 2001.

[Carol]

My husband spoke the Queen's English from the time he was 5 years old. Now he just speaks Americanese.


edit : he is in his 60's now.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

Sebastien's thirty-one and I don't think he'll ever speak perfect English, but that's okay. My family is French and I learned French right along with English.

[Carol]

Good for you. I never learned hubbys language. It's only spoken in two countries, it not like the world is clamoring to learn it. hahahahaha

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

I think a lot of people born in that part of the world speak very good English, Carol. I can also get by in German, having lived in Zuerich for ten years. I went to school in Switzerland, but it was an American school.

[Carol]

You have had an enriched education , with all your travels. Lucky you.

[Ruth]

English is my husband's second language, too, but he speaks and writes it better than many native speakers. He started learning it in school in the 6th grade. In med school he was given the choice of textbooks in English or German (there were none in Norwegian) and he chose English.