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Far From the Madding Crowd
Nice intro Ann. You say that it took you a while to get hooked-- me too. We recently read and discussed The Mayor of Casterbridge and I remember getting into it right away. Of course, Hardy was something of a rookie here. It was his first good book.You're so right about Hardy violating the "show not tell" mantra. But as you point out, in those days it was not a violation.
What kept me from cruising easily into the story were Hardy's endless intrusions intended to teach me about human nature. Men are like this. Women are like that etc. It was very annoying. Consider this sentence very early in the narrative:
The only superiority in women that is tolerable to the opposite sex is, as a rule, that of the unconscious kind; but a superiority which recognizes itself may sometimes please by suggesting possibilities of capture to the subordinated man.
A worse sentence in the English language has never been written. "Possibilities of capture to the subordinate man." Ah, Tommy Hardy, stop philosophizing and get on with it (I'm out of Excedrin).
But the characters are great, the story is dramatic and I loved it.
The best character in the book was that big-ass dog who dragged Fanny Robin to the poor house. Mercy... it don't get no betta.
Ah, I loved the brief appearance of that giant dog, too; sad they stoned the gentle beast away...Ann wrote: In fact, I thought I detected some hostility towards women in Hardy’s generalizations about the female sex.
Must agree with Kenneth, I found them extremely annoying and almost made me drop the book - not so much because of any real misogyny, considering the era, but simply because I've never cared for authorial aphorisms invading a piece of fiction. Plus, they were very repetitive and simplistic.
And how about those farm hands, who seemed to be there to advance the plot, but also to provide comic relief? I found them to be painted with very heavy brushstrokes for the most part. Call it local color.
I did find the main characters to be fairly well-rounded; Boldwood actually seemed the most interesting to me. And yes, I definitely bought his rather late-life obsession with Bathsheba; that little valentine worked its way like a worm through his mind, spawning fantasy and delusion.
Hardy is so interesting in writing about women. He repeatedly creates portraits of strong, interesting women, and engages our sympathies for them--then tells us again and again how flawed they are. I don't excuse him on account of his era; think of Trollope's women, or for that matter, Shakespeare's! In MADDING CROWD Hardy seems to me to espouse an almost Lawrentian view, esp. when Bathsheba comments on the sheep blushing from the insult of being flipped over on her back for shearing. Like Lawrence, he seems to suggest that the dominance of men over women is inherent in nature and is somehow almost mystical. He's old-fashioned in comparison to most of his contemporaries, who were using free indirect speech to get inside the heads of their characters. Hardy uses references to paintings and myths to characterize people who themselves would be unfamiliar with these things. I wonder if this reflects his class anxieties--whether he felt it was important to show off his own education.
On the other hand, Hardy provides an awful lot of reading pleasure--story pleasure, if you know what I mean. I really enjoyed rereading this.
Kat wrote:...he seems to suggest that the dominance of men over women is inherent in nature and is somehow almost mystical.Hmmmmm... I'm not so sure. Bathsheba is a strong woman who assumes a man's role in running the farm. She has no problem standing up to men, speaking her mind, putting them in their place. It's true that she is emotionally vulnerable and is easily weakened by flattery (from Sgt. Troy for example).
But it seems to me that emotional weakness is widespread. Consider Boldwood. He was crazy in love to the point that he became, well, crazy.
When Troy flirts shamelessly with Bathsheba he is having fun, doing what he does so well. Amidst a flirtatious rant, he is struck suddenly by cupid's arrow:
Her beauty, which, while it had been quiescent, he had praised in jest, had in its animated phases moved him to earnest; and though his seriousness was less than she imagined, it was probably more than he imagined himself.
Just like that he's in love (at the very least infatuated big-time). Meanwhile he's crazy in love with Fanny Robin. Troy is an intersting piece of work.
Just popping in to say that I will be here soon. I'm reading the book but am not to the end so I don't want to read the notes yet.
I'm glad I read this, while I admit to skimming past the overly flowery language a few times. I enjoyed the candor in Bathsheba and Oak's relationship over the years.
The character Oak was appealing to me even while a part of me was laughing at myself for it, because he seemed a bit too good to be true. I realized that he is something that can be elusive in real life for women, a man who loves them, who will readily leave them alone if they are told their love is not returned, but whose love is so true that they will work for the woman's best interest always even if there is nothing at all in it for them. All women should have an Oak (and mine should look a bit like George Clooney as well)!
Kenneth P. wrote: "Kat wrote:...he seems to suggest that the dominance of men over women is inherent in nature and is somehow almost mystical.Hmmmmm... I'm not so sure. Bathsheba is a strong woman who assumes a man..."
When I saw "Sgt. Troy", all I could think of was the Sgt. Troy with DI Barnaby on "Midsomer Murders". The author must have taken the name from Hardy.
Lyn wrote: "The character Oak was appealing to me even while a part of me was laughing at myself for it, because he seemed a bit too good to be true...."I think there's been an interesting change in values in this area since the time in which Hardy's novel is set. "Constancy"--staying in love with someone who's not interested in you "that way"--was greatly valued for a number of centuries. But now we look on it as psychologically unhealthy, and recommend therapy or Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous!
Kenneth, I agree that Hardy creates flawed characters of both sexes. And I think he himself sees society as hard on women. So he could be much worse! But I also think he could be better. It's almost as though he's in an argument with himself.
Great comments everyone.Hardy had some negative views of women and marriage that we find offensive today. At the same time, he sees Bathsheba as a frequent exception to those undesirable "female characteristics."
Here is a very negative view on the influence of a wife and family on a man's mixture of intellect and emotions:
He [Oak]was at the brightest period of masculine growth, for his intellect and his emotions were clearly separated: he had passed the time during which the influence of youth indiscriminately mingles them in the character of impulse, and he had not yet arrived at the stage wherein they become united again, in the character of prejudice, by the influence of a wife and family. In short, he was twenty-eight, and a bachelor.
Hardy, Thomas (2012-05-17). Far from the Madding Crowd (p. 2). . Kindle Edition.
On the other hand, Bathsheba can sometimes rise above the weaknesses of most of her sex.
In this part of the story, Bathsheba has just saved Oak
(again - nice name) from suffocating in his cottage:
"It was not exactly the fault of the hut," she observed in a tone which showed her to be that novelty among women—one who finished a thought before beginning the sentence which was to convey it."
Hardy gives Bathsheba high marks for her abilities at the market,also noting: Strange to say of a woman in full bloom and vigor, she always allowed her interlocutors to finish their statements before rejoining with hers.
By the end of the book, as Bathsheba takes charge while holding her bloodied husband in her lap, Hardy seems downright enamored of her:
She was of the stuff of which great men's mothers are made. She was indispensable to high generation, hated at tea parties, feared in shops, and loved at crises.
Hardy, Thomas (2012-05-17). Far from the Madding Crowd (p. 297). . Kindle Edition.
I don't understand all of that ("indispensible to high generation"?), but I am sure it is a great compliment.
I especially enjoyed the comments on Oak. I think he is why the book finished 10th on the British newspaper Guardian's list of greatest love stories of all time.He does seem ideal in so many ways. Kat, good point about constancy not being much valued today, although it was in the past. Now we would just say to someone, "Get over it!" At least in Oak's case, he accepted that he didn't have a chance and went on with his life.
Ann wrote: "I especially enjoyed the comments on Oak. I think he is why the book finished 10th on the British newspaper Guardian's list of greatest love stories of all time.He does seem ideal in so many ways..."
His surname is a perfect metaphor for his personality--the steadfastness and being able to weather violent storms of an oak tree.
Lyn wrote: All women should have an Oak (and mine should look a bit like George Clooney as well)! Agreed! He really is as constant, reassuring and solid as a strong oak tree.
I wondered about how Bathsheba in the Bible might have any metaphorical relevance to the Hardy character if any.
Ann, those are some great quotes. Kat, Hardy having an argument with himself is a sharp observation. I think it is absolutely the case. But Oh how you ladies go on about Mr. Oak! Thomas Hardy is having you on, girls. If only he could look like George Clooney..... Tell me, is there a difference between constancy and martrydom?
Great question, Kenneth. I'm so glad you're here to stir things up!For me "martyrdom" requires that you make sure everyone knows that you are suffering. I knew a girl once who spoke of her mother's attitude as "Just pound a few more nails in the cross."
I didn't see this in Oat. He is indeed a paragon. :-) Unfortunately, he is just an average looking joe, which is why he is so easy for Bathsheba to overlook.
Interestingly, both Oat and Boldwood thought that Bathsheba should marry Troy once they believed that her purity had been soiled. Oh, the horror of a disgraced Victorian woman!
Andrea,Interesting question about the significance of the name "Bathsheba." She was a woman whose beauty tempted King David so much that he got her pregnant and then arranged for her husband's death. In retribution, God took the life of their son.
I wouldn't think "Bathsheba" was a common name because of its negative connotations. Hardy must have chosen it to indicate the great temptation of Bathsheba's beauty. After all, her looks did lead her to attract 3 different suitors when she herself wasn't even interested in tying herself down with marriage (quite an unusual stance in those days).
I suppose the shooting at the end of the book could be seen as retribution for Sgt. Troy's bad behavior.
I believe I read somewhere that Hardy identified himself with Oaks because, like Oaks, he came from the laboring classes but had something more going for him. I think it's interesting that Oaks is shown in such positive terms but all other members of the laboring class are shown in caricature (though possibly with affection). I wonder if it speaks to the distance Hardy must have felt toward others of his class in his early years.What about those names? Oaks vs. Boldwood--obviously intentional. Fun.
As in his later novels Hardy relies on the power of Chance. It was Chance (and an excitable dog) that put Oak in a subservient position to Bathsheba, just as Chance (with her uncle's death) elevated that woman above him. What would have happened if the sailors had not arrived just in time to rescue Troy? Would Batsheba have agreed to marry the unstable Boldwood? What if Fanny Robin had gone to the correct church to marry Troy?Early in the book Batsheba flirts with Chance in the "valentine" scene. It's an interesting situation when she flings the book in the air. With free will she taunts fate.
Characters are constantly making decisions that affect their lives for good or ill. Yet they seem always subject to the whims of some Great Manipulator.
Kat,Good point about the respect shown for Oak in comparison to the caricatures of the other laborers, and I do think that "caricatures" is the right word for it. Hardy wanted to show that Oak was obviously far above them in intelligence, ability, and behavior. He "deserves" to move into the middle class. I think this is a theme in Hardy, one that came out of personal experience.
Jude the Obscure, the first book I read together with Classics Corner, showed another very intelligent working man who yearned for education and deserved a better life, but, in his case all ended in complete tragedy.
Although Hardy wanted to contrast Oak with his peers, I am still not entirely sure why he chose to show the other workers as such naive fools. Granted, in those days, country workers had very little education and almost no chance to observe the rest of the world. This would have made them very unsophisticated. Yet, most of the time, Hardy seems to be making fun of them for comedic effect. Maybe readers of that time were used to seeing rural people portrayed that way. Only the exceptional people "deserved" to move up.
Kenneth,Excellent note about the role of chance in this Hardy novel. I especially like this observation about Bathsheba's decision to send the valentine: With free will she taunts fate.
To what extent do we have free will? How much does fate determine our lives? Once again, Hardy asks these questions.
Hell Ann we got plenty of free will. But hell, if I hadn't walked into a certain place one night decades ago, well, I wouldn't be with a certain wonderful woman. Two terrific people would not exist. It didn't have much to do with free will. It's so much easier to analyze fiction.The humor in Hardy is, I think, a bit forced in this book. But he certainly tries, especially with the local farm hands. One character's intoxication is called a "multiplying eye."
When the errant dog drove Oak's herd of sheep over the cliff it wasn't funny (was it?). It really bothered me when that dog was put down. Dammit he was just being a dog. It would be like killing me for farting. Actually it might have been a bit funny, Oak in a smoke-induced stupor while little doggy scampered around the meadow thinking, "Master Oak will like me tomorrow..... he'll LIKE me!"
It brings me to the tortuous journey of Fanny Robin, in the beginnings of labor, grasping for mile-markers in the blackness, fashioning crutches from a bundle of sticks, climbing on that lumbering dog and falling off again and again only to hear that POS at the poorhouse say that he stoned the dog away.... threw rocks at it! It was just too much for me. Here's my confession: I laughed like hell.
Speaking of dogs and humor....."Ah, Are You Digging On My Grave?"
"Ah, are you digging on my grave,
My loved one? -- planting rue?"
-- "No: yesterday he went to wed
One of the brightest wealth has bred.
'It cannot hurt her now,' he said,
'That I should not be true.'"
"Then who is digging on my grave,
My nearest dearest kin?"
-- "Ah, no: they sit and think, 'What use!
What good will planting flowers produce?
No tendance of her mound can loose
Her spirit from Death's gin.'"
"But someone digs upon my grave?
My enemy? -- prodding sly?"
-- "Nay: when she heard you had passed the Gate
That shuts on all flesh soon or late,
She thought you no more worth her hate,
And cares not where you lie.
"Then, who is digging on my grave?
Say -- since I have not guessed!"
-- "O it is I, my mistress dear,
Your little dog , who still lives near,
And much I hope my movements here
Have not disturbed your rest?"
"Ah yes! You dig upon my grave...
Why flashed it not to me
That one true heart was left behind!
What feeling do we ever find
To equal among human kind
A dog's fidelity!"
"Mistress, I dug upon your grave
To bury a bone, in case
I should be hungry near this spot
When passing on my daily trot.
I am sorry, but I quite forgot
It was your resting place."
--Thomas Hardy, 1913
Hardy does tend toward the melodramatic. But then, he's essentially a Victorian. Dickens and Eliot have the same tendencies, I think.
Ann wrote: "Kenneth,Excellent note about the role of chance in this Hardy novel. I especially like this observation about Bathsheba's decision to send the valentine: With free will she taunts fate.
To what ..."
Fate to me means: you are progressing in life and faced with two choices. The one you choose is your fate. Life goes on and we face crossroads at every point. This is kind of the sense of the old AngloSaxon Wyrd . Life is a combination of both. I think that's what Hardy meant.
Kenneth P. wrote: "Speaking of dogs and humor....."Ah, Are You Digging On My Grave?"
Interesting! What a bitter kind of humor.
I wonder if Harding's contemporaries found those laborers a lot funnier than we do. Humor doesn't always travel well across time. I have never been very amused by Shakespeare's "humorous" characters.
Kat wrote: "Hardy does tend toward the melodramatic. But then, he's essentially a Victorian. Dickens and Eliot have the same tendencies, I think."I enjoyed those melodramatic twists, although I wouldn't accept them in a contemporary novel. Harding always kept me guessing about exactly what would happen next. I suppose the whole serialization process encouraged a lot of the drama. You had to keep the reader's interest until the next issue.
Jane,You wrote, "Fate to me means: you are progressing in life and faced with two choices. The one you choose is your fate."
To me, fate means that the choice was made for someone by circumstances or by others. For example, Oak's sheep were destroyed by the little dog who had not completed his training. On the other hand, Bathsheba chose to send that Valentine, so I would not call that "fate."
Do you think we usually use the word "fate" to refer to something negative?
For those of you who read both THE MAYOR OF CASTERBRIDGE and FAR FROM THE MADDING CROWD, which do you think is the better novel? The most enjoyable?
I enjoyed them both, but I think Far from the Madding Crowd wins by an eyelash.
I'll go with "Mayor." I especially enjoyed the Mayor's journey with all his ups and downs.
I'm about 75% finished with Madding. But I'm like Kenneth; I think I'll be liking Mayor better. Plus there's that marvellous movie of Mayor with Ciaran Hinds as Henchard!
Jane,There is a new movie of MADDING CROWD coming out in 2014. It stars Carey Mulligan as Bathsheba and Michael Sheen as Boldwood. Mulligan is a wonderful actress and I love Sheen for his versatility in playing both serious roles and comedies. He was hilarious in 30 Rock.
Having read MAYOR, where the past had such a critical influence on the story, when I read MADDING CROWD I kept expecting there to be revelations about Bathsheba's past. Her childhood must have been quite colorful. The farmhand gossips said that her father chased women and was bankrupt more than once. I thought it was strange that Bathsheba went from penniless to running her dead uncle's farm in such a short time. But Hardy left that part of her story alone.Did anyone else expect to hear more about this?
Jane wrote: "I'm about 75% finished with Madding. But I'm like Kenneth; I think I'll be liking Mayor better. Plus there's that marvellous movie of Mayor with Ciaran Hinds as Henchard!"Jane, I must see that movie!
Kenneth P. wrote: "Jane wrote: "I'm about 75% finished with Madding. But I'm like Kenneth; I think I'll be liking Mayor better. Plus there's that marvellous movie of Mayor with Ciaran Hinds as Henchard!"Jane, I m..."
He is perfect--great acting and I can visualize Henchard with Hinds playing the role!! And the love scene [if you can call it that] between Farfrae [James Purefoy] and Elizabeth Jane [Jodie 'Something'] in the barn is the most absolutely erotic 'love scene' I've ever seen--and there are absolutely no shenanigans or graphic stuff!
I saw the MAYOR movie on Netflix. I have loved Hinds ever since he played Wentworth in PERSUASION. He was also excellent as Caesar in ROME, as was James Purefoy, who played Marc Antony. Altogether, a top notch cast.As for my original question about preferring MAYOR or CROWD, Henchard stays with me more than the characters in CRWD. He was a true tragic hero - someone who constantly screwed up, but wanted to be a better human being. Also, I think the later book was more tightly written.
What about Boldwood? Could you have any sympathy for him, or were you like me - wishing that he would just conveniently disappear? - which is, of course, what happened in the long run.
Do you think that Oak is just a little too perfect?
I did have some sympathy for Boldwood, but I thought he was too milquetoast-y. I thought his name was a sarcastic comment on his personality, since he wasn't, uh, bold. The thing about offering Troy money to marry either of those two ladies, I didn't like. Also, although rich, he was no good with people--like trying to buy them off--but I feel he was a decent person deep down. I just thought he was...there...and kind of a blah person.Yes, I thought Oak was too perfect, and he happened to be at the right place at the right time to save the day on a couple of occasions--the fire and the rain.
But would you say Hardy was trying to contrast the two--Oak and Troy as being at opposite ends of the spectrum? How the heck a smart lady like Bathsheba could become infatuated with that slimy Troy--I'm still shaking my head at that one.
Ann wrote: "Jane,There is a new movie of MADDING CROWD coming out in 2014. It stars Carey Mulligan as Bathsheba and Michael Sheen as Boldwood. Mulligan is a wonderful actress and I love Sheen for his versatil..."
Thanks. I'll have to watch for this one!
Jane wrote "How the heck a smart lady like Bathsheba could become infatuated with that slimy Troy--I'm still shaking my head at that one."Ah, but he was very handsome and Bathsheba was very young. By the end of the book she was only 23 or 24. She did not have any parents to steer her right.
It's been a long time, but I remember when I was young, physical appearances counted for a whole lot more than they should have.
I think Oak would have been in the running a lot earlier if Bathsheba hadn't been worried by the class difference. Class was still very important in those times in England.
True -- physical appearance, plus class differences plus Troy could talk a good game and turn a young girl's head. I know she was only 23 or 24 by the end of the book, but even at the beginning she seemed mostly mature -- except for that foolish valentine and letting herself by enticed into marrying that creep Troy.
Yeah, I suppose Troy was a creep. But didn't he have positive qualities? He loved deeply and he grieved deeply. Can you despise a man like that? There were some important things about him that we don't know. Did he know Fanny was pregnant? Her pregnancy explains her urgency to be married. But did Troy know about it in time to act responsibly?
I remember Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights banging his head against a tree. Can you totally hate a guy who loves deeply?
I'm sorry -- I disliked the guy intensely. I thought it was all for show, to make himself feel better. I do not think he was sincere, but that's me. He may or may not have known Fanny was pregnant; that would explain her haste, but I think he just DIDN'T want to marry her period.
Wouldn't he have married her if Fanny had shown up at the right church?
I think he would have married her with many regrets. He might have eventually abandoned her after the child was born. Sociatal contraints would have dictated he make "an honest woman " of her. Plus his army commander would have had a say. I can't recall if he even told his superiors.
I agree, Carol. He wouldn't have WANTED to marry her, but he would have had that much decency [I would hope, even though I absolutely did NOT like the guy.] And from what I could see of his personality, I think it more than likely he would have run out on her at some point.
To be fair , I think men were discouraged from taking a wife, especially if they were junior officers. If I remember correctly taking on a wife so early in a military career, was a death knell for a career man. Their careers stalled , or they were decommisioned. Also if they were found to father a child out of wedlock, wasn't that punishable?
I finally finished this book! Parent conferences and lots of paperwork at my job slowed me down enormously and the first half didn't really grip me. However, the last half had me staying up a bit late. My favorite quote of the book was toward the end when Hardy was talking about the relationship between Oak and Bathsheba developing over time through shared work and knowing the good and bad sides of each other's personalities:
This good-fellowship-- camaraderie, usually occurring through similarity of pursuits, is unfortunately seldom superadded to love between the sexes, because men and women associate not in their labours but in their pleasures merely. Where however happy circumstance permits its development the compounded feeling proves itself to be the only love which is strong as death -- that love which many waters cannot quench nor the floods drown beside which the passion usually by the name is evanescent as steam.
Granted this is typical Hardy wordiness. However, it seems very progressive when compared to some of his earlier comments about women that you have discussed here.
In answer to the question posed earlier, I think I liked The Mayor of Casterbridge better than this one. The characters were more complex. However, I must say that I loved the happy ending in this one!
Barb,Yes, I was pleasantly surprised by the happy ending of this book, and I agree with you about the greater complexity of the characters in MAYOR.
I liked that quote about male/female relationships too. In our own day, it is a lot easier for that kind of relationship to develop. In Hardy's day, I think those less well off were much more likely to experience that kind of bond because they shared the work of the farm.
Have you read the Tomalin biography of Hardy? I really liked her biography of Pepys, but I got bogged down in the beginning of the Hardy one and never got very far.
Yesterday, just channel-surfing the tv, I happened to catch the movie with Julie Christie as Bathsheba. I thought it stayed close to the book. I got the same impression of the characters as I did from the book, but I felt a little sorrier for Mr. Boldwood in her pursuit of Bathsheba and I still INTENSELY disliked Sgt. Troy! That said a lot to me about Hardy's characterizations.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Mayor of Casterbridge (other topics)Jude the Obscure (other topics)
The book was originally published in serial form, which helps to explain the cliffhangers yet sometimes meandering story. As in all Hardy novels, fate, coincidences, and tragedy all play significant roles. For me, the strengths of the book are the characterizations and the compelling narrative. It took me awhile (all those long descriptive passages are hard for me to get through), but once I got into it, I was hooked
Hardy tells us a lot about the personality of each of the main characters as he introduces them. This is the framework the reader uses to interpret and judge their subsequent actions. This violates the modern “show, not tell” mantra, but it worked for me. What did you think?
Are the characters believable? Sympathetic?
Bathsheba is sometimes referred to as a modern heroine, a woman of independence who does not set out looking for a husband and wants to run her own business. Yet ultimately, she is not very successful. Do you agree? In fact, I thought I detected some hostility towards women in Hardy’s generalizations about the female sex.
What about Boldwood? (You gotta like some of these names.) He has reached his forties, without showing any interest in women, but suddenly becomes totally obsessed with Bathsheba. Plausible?
And how about those farm hands, who seemed to be there to advance the plot, but also to provide comic relief? They seem a far cry from today's working people.
I’m looking forward to reading your thoughts about the book.