Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Introductions
>
Please introduce yourself~
Everyman wrote: "The bookshelf is, undoubtedly, incomplete, as any such list must be. The moderators are always open to suggestions for additions to the list which are within the parameters of the group's purpose and which we believe would be of value for this group to read and discuss. "How we can suggest a book to the bookshelf?
Rafael wrote: "w we can suggest a book to the bookshelf? ."Send a private message to me or any of the other moderators.
Natalie wrote: "Everyman, you said that you do not include "collections of poetry, short stories, or essays" yet I've spotted some on the list. And you did Chekhov's stories."In between our "main" reading discussions, we usually have an interim discussion on a much shorter subject -- a poem or a story. For the last few years we have had a longer interim read over the winter holidays on a series of shorter subjects -- a series of related plays or stories. So we do in fact read some shorter works, but as interim reads only.
Thomas wrote: "In between our "main" reading discussions, we usually have an interim discussion on a much shorter subject -- a poem or a story.."Thanks for clarifying that, Thomas. If you look at the shelves, you'll usually find that the poetry, essay, or short story collections are on the "read" shelf, which means they have been read, almost always as part of an Interim Read. If you want to see the books that are subject to being nominated and voted on for regular reads, you have to look at the "to-read" shelf.
There may be some that have slipped through the cracks and still appear on the to-read shelves, but if they happened to be chosen by the random number generator I would omit them and get another random number choice to replace them.
Everyman wrote: "we consider the phrase "modern classic" to be oxymoronic. "LOL!
It is an iconic term, so how would you replace it?
Kerstin wrote: "Everyman wrote: "we consider the phrase "modern classic" to be oxymoronic. "LOL!
It is an iconic term, so how would you replace it?"
The term "book" comes to mind. [g]
Or important modern book. Or excellent read. But really, how do you know what books will and won't endure?
If you go back and look at the prizewinners from past decades -- Pulitzer, Man Booker, National Book Award, and also the Book of the Month Club selections, you'll see books that were in their day deemed important and probably often described as "modern classics." Some are still around, but others are almost totally forgotten today.
Is anybody today reading The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay, by Michael Chabon? (2001 Pulitzer Prize winner). Or Martin Dressler: The Tale of an American Dreamer, by Steven Millhauser (1997)? Or The Mambo Kings Play Songs of Love, by Oscar Hijuelos (1990)?
So much for these one-time modern classics!
Actually I very recently--within the past month--read a literary blog entry on _Martin Dressler_ and I added it to my TBR pile. I agree with your point in general, however. Chabon, for one, is still writing so we cannot see the entire trajectory of his career or evaluate all of his works.Dastardly typos--an affliction of advanced age.
Funny, someone recently recommended The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay to me so it may be too soon to write it off....
Susan wrote: "Funny, someone recently recommended The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay to me so it may be too soon to write it off...."Yes, I haven't read it, but that one seems to have some niche or venue at least for which it is destined. But most of all, we live in the present and have the challenge of choosing from what to engage in that "present."
Everyman wrote: "The term "book" comes to mind. [g]"I agree!! :)
While I agree that "modern classic" is an oxymoron, there are some authors who one can slot in a group labelled: "potential classic." These are the ones who are published by reputable publishers, the ones who make the long or short list for literary awards, the ones who have paragraphs that typically last more than one sentence. I am not suggesting that they be added to this group, but rather that one takes some names (Ishiguro, Zadie Smith, Toni Morrison, Ian McEwan, Don Paterson, Carol Rumens--this list is very brief and partial but not impartial) seriously.
Carol Rumens is a name I don't know. Goodreads lists her books but provides no background information.Some of my "not impartial" adds: Don DeLillo, Salman Rushdie, Rohinton Mistry, Virginia Woolf, D.H. Lawrence, Boris Pasternak, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Gabriel García Márquez, Nadine Gordimer -- oh, but there are so many, why am I even trying? The polyphony is magnificent.
( I haven't even touched those pushing the envelope: Gaddis, Pynchon, Wallace, Murakami, Wittgenstein....)
It's difficult indeed to limit the names of those who are noteworthy and I made myself to a very limited list of the first names that popped into my head.
It's difficult indeed to limit the names of those who are noteworthy and I made myself to a very limited list of the first names that popped into my head.I select this only for brevity: it's written in the Onegin stanza form:
Once After Pushkin
by Carol Rumens
I loved you once. D’you hear a small ‘I love you’
Each time we’re forced to meet? Don’t groan, don’t hide!
A damaged tree can live without a bud:
No one need break the branches and uncover
The green that should have danced, dying inside.
I loved you, knowing I’d never be your lover.
And now? I wish you summers of leaf-shine
And leaf-shade, and a face in dreams above you,
As tender and as innocent as mine.
This is the introductions thread, so can we take any continued discussion of non-introductory posts over to the tea room, please?Thanks.
Hi, I am a new member in this group. My parents always read and so have I, never questioned why. There have been phases of not reading, but then I eventually get bored (esp. with television). I like to read widely, and some time ago I recognized a huge gap in my reading wherefore I started reading classics. Also my supervisor put some items on my mandatory reading list... I am from Finland but now live in UK, doing my PhD at St Andrews.
Tommi wrote: "Hi, I am a new member in this group. My parents always read and so have I, never questioned why. There have been phases of not reading, but then I eventually get bored (esp. with television). I lik..."Welcome, Tommi. What are you doing your PhD in?
Are any of the books on the present poll (accessed through the poll link in the upper right section of the home page) books that your supervisor has assigned??
Hi everyone, I'm Jacqueline/Jacki. I'm an English major currently studying in the US but originally from Germany. I am an avid reader of everything considered "modernist," and I particularly love drama. I think one of the first books I picked up and read as a kid (outside of books you read at school) was Goethe's Faust, and that was pretty much my introduction to the beauty of language and literature. I spent most of my day reading or writing on literature (with brief intervals of watching Netflix/following up on what's going on in the world) when I am not in classes. Not sure what else to write! :)
Jacki wrote: "Hi everyone, I'm Jacqueline/Jacki. I'm an English major currently studying in the US but originally from Germany. I am an avid reader of everything considered "modernist," and I particularly love d..."Welcome, Jacki. Faust is certainly a good introduction to great literature. I'm not sure we here would be considered "modernist," but we'll give you a good break from modernist writing!
Everyman wrote: What are you doing your PhD in?Are any of the books on the present poll (accessed through the poll link in the upper right section of the home page) books that your supervisor has assigned??
Hi @Everyman, PhD in Biblical Studies / New Testament. My main interest is in exorcism and messianic expectation.
My reading list includes works from Seneca, Aristotle, Cicero, Tacitus, Philo and others + quite widely from my own discipline.
Everyman wrote: "Jacki wrote: "Hi everyone, I'm Jacqueline/Jacki. I'm an English major currently studying in the US but originally from Germany. I am an avid reader of everything considered "modernist," and I parti..."Sounds good to me! I'm actually looking forward to reading/discussing other literature. I'm sure there will be connections!
Tommi wrote: "PhD in Biblical Studies / New Testament. My main interest is in exorcism and messianic expectation."Sounds interesting Tommi. Welcome to the group.
Hello everyone. I'm Daniel and I'm new to the group. I'm currently attending university in Portland Oregon (which is where I was born and raised) where I'm duel majoring in English and in German as a second language. I have always considered myself a reader, though it is only within the past few years that I have fully realized my passion for reading. I thoroughly enjoy reading and discussing classics and am excited to begin participating in group discussions.
Welcome, Daniel. Look forward to your participation in the discussions here. Many of us here are also passionate about reading and sharing our reactions to what we read. Join the fun?!If I may ask, did something in particular draw your interest to this board at this point in time? (I see you are currently reading a couple of great classic writers, Shakespeare and James?)
Welcome, Daniel!If you love reading you came to the right group.
Daniel J. wrote: "Hello everyone. I'm Daniel and I'm new to the group. I'm currently attending university in Portland Oregon (which is where I was born and raised) where I'm duel majoring in English and in German as..."Glad to have you join us. With your German, it's too bad you didn't find us in time for our Goethe or Mann (Magic Mountain) discussions, but we'll probably find ourselves in special need of your linguistics before long. Meanwhile, hope you enjoy our next selections. We're almost done the Republic, but will be starting The Blithedale Romance soon.
Lily wrote: "If I may ask..."Nothing specifically. I'm really just seeking out the opportunity to discuss books. I am part of the classics book club at my local library; it's a great group, but the meeting times don't always work with my schedule. The James is for school, and King Lear is just one of my favorite reads.
Everyman wrote: "Glad to have you join us."
Thank you, I'm glad to be here. And I've picked up a copy of The Blithedale Romance from the library.
Daniel J. wrote: "Lily wrote: "If I may ask..."Nothing specifically. I'm really just seeking out the opportunity to discuss books. I am part of the classics book club at my local library; it's a great group, but t..."
Daniel -- thanks for your response to my nosy question! Hope you enjoy time with this board. I certainly have and do!
It took me many reads of "The Turn of the Screw" before I had any sense of what James was exploring in that short story. A discussion on another Goodreads board, along with the exploration I did at the time, have probably been the most helpful I have found to date on that enigmatic little story. I hope your class experience has been good. Henry James today ranks among my favorite authors, even though he can be so obstinately erudite and obscure.
Hi All - I'm a new member to the group, and a lifelong reader who has dabbled with reading the classics, and have wanted to approach them in a more organized way. I have a somewhat unusual career combination, being both a CPA and a minister. The CPA path came along because as a young man I was first a piano major who didn't want to be a starving musician. Later in life, the ministry side came about, in part, because ... well ... I was a musician. We live in the Atlanta area, and have grown children (a daughter and three sons) and .. so far .. 9 grandchildren. That fact, coupled with my being a CPA, should make anyone wonder whether I ever have time to read. But, yes, I do, because it's a passion, and I look forward to being a part of the group!
David wrote: "That fact, coupled with my being a CPA, should make anyone wonder whether I ever have time to read. ..."No, only that you join us in March!
Welcome, David, to a board of passionate readers, many of whom stack their lives much as you do, but with different flavors of cake and fillings between, if I can make a sweet but questionable analogy! Thank goodness, most of the authors we read here do better! May I ask, how long have you been a minister? Peter Drucker, the business consultant, used to cite it as one of the desirable later life career choices.
David wrote: "Hi All - I'm a new member to the group, and a lifelong reader who has dabbled with reading the classics, and have wanted to approach them in a more organized way. I have a somewhat unusual career c..."Welcome, David. I share several of your interests, both as a former professional musician (initially on classical French Horn, later as a member of a recorder consort and a Big Band ensemble) and as a financial manager, though with a MS rather than a CPA (my father was a CPA, though, so I know what it entails).
And I have always made time for reading, so share that with you also. So I know you'll fit right in.
You're just in time for our reading of The Blithedale Romance, which might tickle your religious interests. BTW, what denomination are you a minister of? (I served as chief financial officer for Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and greatly enjoyed the chance to sit in on some of the classes and listen to the budding ministers developing their sermon writing and delivery.)
Hi there. My name is Emma. I finished my MA this year and am considering a PhD but I'm not sure I have the money (or energy) for that yet. In any case, I wanted to read more widely as I've been stuck in an easy book lane for a while now. I'm hoping that these discussions will help me keep my brain working in case I need it for more studies.
Looking forward to NH and most likely will be starting it today.
Rafael wrote: "Welcome, Emma!"Thank you!
Everyman wrote: "David wrote: "Hi All - I'm a new member to the group, and a lifelong reader who has dabbled with reading the classics, and have wanted to approach them in a more organized way. I have a somewhat un..."Thanks so much for the welcome! I played trumpet in school and later for pay, though my main instrument is piano; I don't think I had enough embochure control for French Horn :-) ..... I am a minister in the Southern Baptist Convention, but have been a CPA for years before that and, as I mentioned, I still have a very active practice. Looking forward to reading Hawthorne!
Lily wrote: "David wrote: "That fact, coupled with my being a CPA, should make anyone wonder whether I ever have time to read. ..."No, only that you join us in March!
Welcome, David, to a board of passionate..."
Thanks for the welcome, Lily! I've been a minister officially since 2001, and a CPA since 1982. Amazingly, both careers mesh together pretty well. I wound up in ministry not so much by choice but by being chosen ... too long a story for now, but a very good one!
Emma wrote: "Hi there. My name is Emma. I finished my MA this year and am considering a PhD but I'm not sure I have the money (or energy) for that yet. In any case, I wanted to read more widely as I've been s..."
Welcome, Emma. (A very appropriate name for a Classics group!)
What is your MA and possible PhD in? I'm always curious about what academic fields students today are going into. So many are going into tech fields that we need to cherish those who go into humanities, which since you have an MA rather than an MS I assume you are?
Everyman wrote: "Emma wrote: "Hi there. My name is Emma. I finished my MA this year and am considering a PhD but I'm not sure I have the money (or energy) for that yet. In any case, I wanted to read more widely a..."
My MA was in Classical Studies, specifically Greek theatre and the ancient historians, with a thrilling (!) dissertation on the representation of emotion in Sophocles and Thucydides and how it may indicate changing Athenian political and cultural norms.
It was never a choice for me, i've always been a lover of stories and language. I struggled my way through maths and science subjects at school with a serious lack of enthusiasm. I'm interested in popular tech and science now but studying it is another matter. My brain doesn't work that way.
I think that the humanities should be studied by more people, Emma, so congratulations on getting your MA. I love languages too, but only the moderns. I studied Latin in high school, but never studied Ancient Greek. It must be amazing to read those works in the original language.
Rosemarie wrote: "I think that the humanities should be studied by more people, Emma, so congratulations on getting your MA. I love languages too, but only the moderns. I studied Latin in high school, but never stud..."But the statistic that Microsoft has been publishing that less than 7% of women pursue STEM degrees will continue to trouble me. To the extent personal interests and abilities and time permit, I hope studies that amalgamate the humanities and the sciences can flourish.
Patrice wrote: "why does it trouble you lily?"A couple of the quick reasons, Patrice. First, technology is such a deep part of the world most will have to live into, that I believe it needs female minds, as well as male ones, well skilled and trained in both creating it and dealing with it. Second, many of the better paying jobs right now tend to be in technology areas. I think more women should have better prepared access to those. Third, I think both men and women, to the extent possible, can personally benefit in many ways, from just enjoyment to thinking to social contribution, by cross knowledge. And that is all I have to say quickly -- I'm not interested in going and pulling from the all sorts of stuff written on the subject.
Rosemarie wrote: "I think that the humanities should be studied by more people, Emma, so congratulations on getting your MA..."I agree completely. I think everyone should study the humanities. But the problem is the paucity of available full-time jobs in the humanities. I got my Ph.D. in English Lit in the 1980s. Even at that time, the market was beginning to be saturated with Ph.Ds. Now the situation is even more challenging. Institutions of higher ed are populating their faculty with adjuncts. Finding a full-time position has become extremely competitive.
I was always in such a dilemma with former students who wanted to major in the humanities. Do I encourage them to do so knowing they may have a hard time finding a well-paying career in the field? Or do I steer them away from humanities and encourage them to pursue a STEM degree since that increases their chance of landing a job that is more financially lucrative?
In the end, I decided to give them the pros and cons so they could make an informed decision. But I encouraged them to be life-long readers of the humanities regardless of their chosen field of study.
Tamara wrote: "But I encouraged them to be life-long readers of the humanities regardless of their chosen field of study."This is a good advice.
Patrice wrote: "tamara, my husband, an art professor, has watched the evolution to part time departments. now the part timers are unionizing. i think that might change things. but ultimately supply and demand will..."Patrice,
I sincerely hope you're right. Part-timers are shamefully exploited by institutions of higher ed. They should unionize but I fear many of them may hesitate because they're afraid of being dismissed as 'trouble-makers' should a full time position in their field become available.
Emma wrote: "My MA was in Classical Studies, specifically Greek theatre and the ancient historians, "You've hit a special love of Thomas and me (and Patrice, and maybe others). Do you read classical Greek? Thomas has kept up with it (we both attended St. John's College where we took two years of Greek, but I barely scraped by and have forgotten almost all of it whereas he was a star and still reads it). I'm sorry that you've joined after we have read many of the Greek works (we've read both the Iliad and Odyssey, Antigone (one of my very favorite works in all literature; I translated and directed a production of it for a school I worked for), the Oristeia, some Plato, Herodotus. But not yet Thucydides or any Aristotle.
Rafael wrote: "Tamara wrote: "But I encouraged them to be life-long readers of the humanities regardless of their chosen field of study."This is a good advice."
Agree (obviously, I hope, from my previous comments ;-o). But I will also encourage humanities majors to play at least occasionally with more and deeper STEM readings than may be totally comfortable.
Everyman wrote: "Emma wrote: "My MA was in Classical Studies, specifically Greek theatre and the ancient historians, "You've hit a special love of Thomas and me (and Patrice, and maybe others). Do you read classi..."
Ah, excellent! Good to know there are fans in this group and I can always go back in to your discussions to see what themes were brought up. I do read classical Greek, albeit slowly. I only started it during my MA so it was challenging to learn it alongside the other necessary reading. I also read a lot in translation as part of the degree was on translation and reception: literary works reflecting as much from the time of their translation/reimagining as the original, or even more so. I'm currently doing a GCSE in Latin for fun in my spare time as I never got to study that one. It's getting to the point where I can read through whole paragraphs of text and it's exhilarating.
Like you, I'm a huge fan of Antigone (any of the female characters who break free from the traditional oikos role really). I saw a production of it in London a few months ago. I can't imagine the thrill, and many difficulties, of organising a production. I think i prefer the audience experience. I see as much Ancient Greek theatre as I can, in English or Ancient Greek. Though I do need the subtitles in those circumstances, my Greek isn't that good!
I'm happy to read outside my subject and I've never read hawthorn so this month's choice will be interesting.
Rosemarie wrote: "I think that the humanities should be studied by more people, Emma, so congratulations on getting your MA. I love languages too, but only the moderns. I studied Latin in high school, but never stud..."I was the opposite Rosemarie, but I'm trying for Latin now. As long as I keep it up, get some done every day, then I should be able to read something challenging by the end of the year. That's my goal in any case.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Metamorphoses (other topics)Gilgamesh: A New Translation of the Ancient Epic (other topics)
The Portrait of a Lady (other topics)
Ficciones (other topics)
Dracula (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Søren Kierkegaard (other topics)Dorothy L. Sayers (other topics)
John Ciardi (other topics)
Alexis de Tocqueville (other topics)
Dani Shapiro (other topics)
More...
Yes, "Nightingale" is swoonworthy and I had long had a posthumous crush on Keats. What he achieved at such a young age is unparalleled, I believe. Shakespeare would not be remembered if we only had his work through age 24.
Everyman, you said that you do not include "collections of poetry, short stories, or essays" yet I've spotted some on the list. And you did Chekhov's stories. I only saw a couple of items on the list which left me with little enthusiasm; it's an excellent list as it stands. I don't know if I can ever get terribly enthusiastic about the 18th century novel--I have read them.