Madam, want to talk about author Mary Stewart? discussion
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Touch Not the Cat
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Touch Not the Cat -- Chapters 1 thru 4
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I read a lot of British fiction from the turn of the 20th century. The term "lover" is also used by courting couples to refer to each other in an exclusive, though not, physical relationship.
Jeannette wrote: "It seemed as if Stewart was hinting that they had a physical relationship, too, without having met. They seemed to be very intimate, without interacting with each other in an intimate physical way...."I understood that this was what Linda seemed to be thinking, which was why I made the point that Mary S did not mean that when she used the word "lover". It was simply something to call him, since she didn't know his name but did know how they felt about each other.
Hj wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "It seemed as if Stewart was hinting that they had a physical relationship, too, without having met. They seemed to be very intimate, without interacting with each other in an inti..."And that helped loads! It made it not seem so creepy (and it wasn't as creepy as I kept reading) but this helped
I'm glad it helped, Linda. As a digression - in some parts of England, notably Devon, they use "lover" as a casual form of address. Imagine my surprise on being asked "Do you want a bag for that, my lover?" in a shop by a complete stranger - who was also female!
Hj wrote: "I'm glad it helped, Linda. As a digression - in some parts of England, notably Devon, they use "lover" as a casual form of address. Imagine my surprise on being asked "Do you want a bag for tha..."
Cornwall, too - rabid Doc Martin fans may notice that usage occasionally - the organist character from the first couple of seasons uses it at least once, and a couple of the 'real people' who do bit parts (such as shop assistants) use it as well.
So I'm going to resurrect the TNtC threads as I'm reading this book now (still pouting that I missed all these buddy reads last year). I read this book so many years ago that it's almost like a new MS book for me. I think that maybe I remember who Bryony's "lover" is but I'm not at all certain. I'm getting a little impatient with how he won't tell her who he is when he gets to know who she is, and he's all "just trust me." It feels kind of unpleasantly paternalistic to me--there'd better be a very good reason for it. Right now it just looks like a kind of transparent plot device.
And finally, I'm getting a chuckle out of the first cousins/second cousins difference in the UK and US versions. The idea doesn't bug me nearly as much as it would have 15 years ago; I've done a little reading and the increase in the genetic risks is really pretty minimal, unless it's repeatedly done over several generations. It's sort of like having a child when you're over 40 (which I've done): you can say your risk of birth defects is going up by 50%, but when you realize that the risk is going from the normal 3% to maybe 5%, that kind of puts it in perspective.
Tadiana wrote: "So I'm going to resurrect the TNtC threads as I'm reading this book now (still pouting that I missed all these buddy reads last year). I read this book so many years ago that it's almost like a ne..."I shall enjoy your comments, especially given that it's virtually a new read for you! There is a good reason why her "lover" doesn't want to tell her who he is. I agree that it's frustrating, but I think that MS wanted us to feel Bryony's frustration combined with her sense of being loved and held safe. I don't think you'll find it's paternalistic when you know who it is.
I'm interested in your comments about the cousin issue. Usually there is more heat than light when this is discussed! People have grown up learning either that's it's very wrong (usually in the US), or that it isn't a big deal (UK etc.). They rarely check the detail for themselves.
I just did a quick bit of checking for myself, and there was a study in the UK published in 2013. This states that only one percent of marriages in the UK are between cousins. The risk of birth defects doubles - but, similar to the over 40 risk you quote, that is an increased risk from an average 3% to 6%.
In fact I wonder whether the study might show results on the high side, because it was focussed on a community in which cousin marriages are more common and therefore (it seems to me) there may well have been cousin marriages among earlier generations too. It seems to me that if that was the case then that would increase the risk.
Tadiana wrote: "So I'm going to resurrect the TNtC threads as I'm reading this book now (still pouting that I missed all these buddy reads last year). I read this book so many years ago that it's almost like a ne..."I'll be watching for your thoughts as well. I can recall who the lover is but memory has faded as to why.
Just stumbled on the group. Not sure how I missed it, given how huge a Mary Stewart fan I am. I've read all her books, many more than once. TNTC is one of my particular favourites. The mystery is well done and kept me guessing to the end. I really loved those exerpts at the end of each chapter and how that links into the main story. Sorry to have missed the buddy read too.
Cryssa wrote: "Just stumbled on the group. Not sure how I missed it, given how huge a Mary Stewart fan I am. I've read all her books, many more than once. TNTC is one of my particular favourites. The mystery is w..."Glad you found us. Feel free to pop in on any of the buddy reads next time you pick up a MS for a reread. We'll jump back in with you.
Cryssa wrote: "Just stumbled on the group. Not sure how I missed it, given how huge a Mary Stewart fan I am. I've read all her books, many more than once. TNTC is one of my particular favourites. The mystery is w..."Nice to meet you, Cryssa! There are several other latecomers in this group so I'm hoping we can organize a repeat buddy read of some MS books for those of us who missed the first go-round. You should introduce yourself further in the Introductions thread.
Cryssa wrote: "Just stumbled on the group. Not sure how I missed it, given how huge a Mary Stewart fan I am. I've read all her books, many more than once. TNTC is one of my particular favourites. The mystery is w..."Over at the "*more buddy reads?" we're choosing the next one, possibly Thunder on the Right". Come on over and join in!
Welcome Cryssa. This is a great group, you will really enjoy it. Hope you can join our next buddy read for TOTR. Judith
Thanks, Tadiana. TOTR will be perfect. It's been so long, I can't remember what it's about. Can't wait to rediscover it.
HI, Misfit,Back in the land of the books where I belong,.
Cryssa wrote: "HI, Misfit,Back in the land of the books where I belong,."
The best place to be.
Well, I brought the wrong MS with me on vacation; I'm about half through The Ivy Tree (not sure why it jumped into the suitcase). But I'll grab Touch Not the Cat when I get home!I do remember who the lover is, but I don't actually remember why he's a secret for so long. Selective memory...
@Karlyne, this isn't a current buddy read; it's just me reading TNtC late and using these old threads to comment on my thoughts, and luckily for me, some others here are commenting too. So you don't need to feel obligated to read it right now, but I'd be delighted if you or anyone cares to join me.
Karlyne wrote: "Well, I brought the wrong MS with me on vacation; I'm about half through The Ivy Tree (not sure why it jumped into the suitcase). But I'll grab Touch Not the Cat when I get home!I do remember w..."
We've done a buddy read on The Ivy Tree as well, feel free to pop in on those discussions.
Karlyne wrote: "Well, I brought the wrong MS with me on vacation; I'm about half through The Ivy Tree (not sure why it jumped into the suitcase). ..."Maybe because we were talking about Josephine Tey's Brat Farrar and how it relates to the Ivy Tree? We're probably going to be reading Thunder on the Right as our next buddy read.
Hj wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Well, I brought the wrong MS with me on vacation; I'm about half through The Ivy Tree (not sure why it jumped into the suitcase). ..."Maybe because we were talking about Josephi..."
Must have been, Hj! I only got to one little book store on vacation, and it had no Teys at all, so Brat Farrar is still on my Amazon wish list!
Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "So I'm going to resurrect the TNtC threads as I'm reading this book now (still pouting that I missed all these buddy reads last year). I read this book so many years ago that it's almost like a new..."I know the comments above are from several years ago but Tadiana's really matches my current thoughts. Looks like I read this in 2004 so I can't remember who the lover is or why he is being so secretive. I am also rather impatient about that and hope there is a good reason. I do know that I liked this book and was anxious to reread it.
I also found her using "lover" in her addresses to him fairly creepy at first, but after some of the comments above, I can understand it. It must be like someone in the South here addressing a stranger as honey or sweetie. I usually want to say "I'm not your honey." especially if it is a male.
I also do not remember that parallel storyline at the ends of the chapters at all.
I really liked the start - although I'm not big on the paranormal. Stewart sets the atmosphere well.
I've just discovered this group, and I am interested in joining the discussion. I read the book long ago--probably about 40 years ago. I've just reread the first four chapters. I agree with a lot of what has been said above. I find the anonymity of the "lover" annoying, but it is great to read a Mary Stuart book I don't remember.
I'm not big on the paranormal, either, Carol, so that's probably why this isn't my favorite. But then, again, it's still a Mary Stewart, and those descriptions of Madeira are making me look for my passport. And, Hi, Casceil! Welcome to our happy family!
And I was wondering if the 1976 publication date had anything to do with the supernatural aspect of the story - it's current with her Merlin series.
I read this book last year and just loved it. I’m following the discussion.
I agree--her calling him "lover" has always seemed... kind of seventies lounge-jacket to me. Never really liked that. On the cousin issue: I teach British 19th century literature to college students, and whenever we do Jane Eyre or Mansfield Park I always have to point out we are in a world where it's perfectly ok to marry your cousin, but not ok to marry someone from a different social class. Because otherwise everyone is SO CONFUSED.
Hoping to get some discussion in July 2023.
I am liking the paranormal aspect of this book and wondering if Mary Stewart was writing about a type of mental phenomena she had experienced - otherwise, how would she know to write this? The fact that the man she mind-talks with won't reveal his identity and keeps telling her to wait concerns me. It seems like a bit of a one-sided relationship and despite her calling him "lover" it doesn't seem very loving to me. I can only feel sorry for Bryony for thinking this is a person she should call "lover." She could be very deceived. Can't wait to see how the story develops. I'm currently in chapter five.
I haven’t started yet, but your comments are intriguing me!
Oh, sorry - didn't mean to post spoilers - but this is a very strange book and is unlike anything else I've read by Mary Stewart - or anyone else for that matter! It is all very mysterious!!!
Linda wrote: "Oh, sorry - didn't mean to post spoilers..."Linda, you posted no spoilers! All is well. ;-)
It's an odd book, but an enjoyable one, written in Stewart's engaging and oh-so comfortable style. It's not as smooth as some of her other works, but it's still smooth enough...
This is my 4th time reading this so I know the story quite well. It was my first ever Mary Stewart novel too. I also found the 1835 story at the end of the chapters intriguing as well.This time I'm noticing her beautiful descriptions of the countryside and flowers, having noticed them more in all of her previous books.
I’m enjoying it so far! Makes me want to go back to England in May again. It’s an intriguing setup.
I was googling around to see if I could find a moated manor house in the Malverns that might have inspired Ashley Court, and I found this one, which fills the bill nicely: https://birtsmortoncourt.com/
I don't have a great visualization ability when reading, so I find it really helpful to have a reference image.
Gorgeous! Though I imagine moated houses are hell on the rheumatism. Thanks for sharing this!
Abigail wrote: "Here’s one of the right era in Surrey: http://mr3.homeflow.co.uk/files/prope...."That is so lovely and comfortable-looking. I'm with you though, as a homeowner myself, when I see these places, all I can think is "mildew and money-pit" lol.
I have always been somewhat troubled by the telepathy/"lover" element of the story. In these days of consent and female agency, I am very uncomfortable with the idea of a man who refuses to identify himself, and who comes and goes as he pleases, living inside Bryony's head!However, reading the description of the nature of the communication I had a thought. Stewart says the phenomenon is like a "…sudden block of intelligence that is thrust into one’s mind and slotted and locked there… and there is the page for its meanings for you to read.” She goes on to say that individuals in this special relationship share dreams, and it’s like having an imaginary companion.
This is a good description of the creative process itself for a writer. Often your ideas and characters come to have a sort of life of their own in your mind. Ideas and plot elements descend on you from seemingly nowhere, characters talk and argue with you, etc. This is pure conjecture on my part, but I was wondering if maybe Mary Stewart thought to herself, “What if that phenomenon was an *actual* person who really did exist and who you could one day remove hime from your head and have a real relationship with!” For a writer, that fantasy might in fact be appealing.
I was struck by how effectively she works through family history, scene setting, and getting the plot in motion all at the same time in 4 relatively short, globe-trotting chapters. Her overview of how the Ashleys managed to survive and thrive over hundreds of years of English historic drama was masterful. I loved her beautiful descriptions of Madeira. Then she has a brief but moving visit to Bad Tölz to review the details of her father’s death and receive his final mysterious words. And finally, the return to Ashley Court, and encountering the mysterious nighttime visitor to the church, and it’s all go!
I am very interested in how Bryony’s grief over her father’s death is depicted. It’s all very understated and stiff upper lip so far, but this sentence really blew me away, during her conversation with Herr Gothard, "I have no recollection of anything he said, but to this day I can remember every petal on the blue hyacinths in the bowl on the desk between us.” We’ve all been there, haven’t we, during some life-changing event when it’s all a blur and yet you can remember some crazy little detail.
Last thing: the girl with the Jaguar who nearly hits her in the crosswalk is described as having “that Pekinese look that is somehow typically American.” I’m American and I have absolutely no idea what she means by that, but I do find it funny.
Iolanthe wrote: “that Pekinese look that is somehow typically American.” I’m American and I have absolutely no idea what she means by that...I, too, am American. I think the reference is to a certain overly pouf-y, excessively made-up (heavy on the mascara) "look," a style which characterized some young American females during the 1960s-70s - a look associated with a degree of frippery and uselessness - much like a Pekinese dog. Teased coat, heavy black points on the mask, and all but useless as a dog...
;-)
Ha, after reading your comment, I googled "1970s American models" and I think you've hit the nail on the head!https://www.chron.com/life/style/slid...
(I was born in '61, so you'd think I'd know, but this "look" must have passed me by).
Fascinating thoughts on telepathy, the creative process, and grief, Iolanthe. Yes, the creative process is certainly a form of possession, and no author can say those characters encamped in one’s head aren’t fully alive and exercising free will!Bryony’s description of her family echoes at least one other Mary Stewart book (not sure which one right now) in which the heroine’s relatives are described as being somewhat selfish and imperious, though with an abundance of charm. Wondering if this was simply Stewart’s stereotype for British well-to-do gentry or if this is an echo of her take on her own family. Family members in her book do tend to be fairly problematic figures, especially romantic-interest cousins.
I agree that the cousin taking up residence in one’s head is a very creepy and icky idea, especially with romance involved. I find myself hoping Francis will swoop in like a breath of fresh air. And wondering if Rob isn’t a dark horse.
I find myself straying into spoiler territory and will discuss further in another thread. Am now in chapter 13.
Iolanthe wrote: "Ha, after reading your comment, I googled "1970s American models" and I think you've hit the nail on the head!https://www.chron.com/life/style/slid...
"
Or TWIGGY, with her two black eyes! Add an oversized poor boy turtleneck sweater, and you've got Cathy Underhill... http://www.howretro.com/2011/07/1960s...
And another link to that classic "Pekingese" look...
https://www.whowhatwear.com/60s-makeu...
Either decade will do for crazy faces and goofy hair (then again, the 1980s had the big hair trend too, didn't they?) I always wondered why I had to be born with limp, silky, insubstantial hair incapable of being "teased," until I realized my pathetic-seeming bit of thatch was pathetic because it was - "merely" natural - un-permed, uncolored, not "treated" at all. (No amount of Breck Shampoo or Clairol Herbal Essence was going to turn my hair into a tiger's mane.) How I suffered (silently) through junior high school!
Fortunately for you, all of this likely did pass you by, as, having emerged in 1961, you're just a baby. I, on the other hand, having hatched in 1955, have seen it all! (Don't we all like to think we've "seen it all...")
Glad everyone is enjoying the book! I read it a few months ago, while ill, but I am still enjoying following everyone's comments now, during the group read.
Thanks to all for sharing! It's lifting my spirits... xox
;-) Galowa
Madam, want to talk about author Mary Stewart?
Books mentioned in this topic
Brat Farrar (other topics)Thunder on the Right (other topics)
Inkspell (other topics)
That was what I assumed and that was what creeped me out somewhat--but I had trouble with believing them intimate in a physical way psychically. But I think part of that stemmed from not knowing who the other party was--I personally would have difficulty opening up in this sort of way to a person who could be someone I knew in my "waking life" and keep it separate if that makes any sense.