Starting a new club pick - how open-minded are you?

[Michele]

It seems to me a lot of people when reading selections often have trouble getting "hooked" at the beginning and comment about slow starts and wanting to know if it gets better. Or being confused and not knowing what's going on at first.

As someone who has read a lot, a lot, a lot of fantasy stuff over the years I expect a slow buildup and sort of intro to the world, also more flowery or stilted language and the laser picks start off with me overwhelmed with techno stuff or "who are these people and why are they shooting photon torpedoes at each other" and "was that an alien?" and I'm wondering if this is just a genre difference - that people with less exposure to the other genre are having to adapt. I'm thinking that a lot of sci fi likes to begin smack in the middle of the action, whereas fantasy traditionally begins with a slower paced, more "intro to the world" and then stuff starts to happen.

Is it just me, or looking back over the club picks do you see a pattern where the books you have more trouble with are those of the genre you are less familiar/comfortable with?

Or is it that more recently written books follow the current style of starting you off right in the middle of some action and then slowly stick in the bits of background and stuff, opposed to older styles of "beginning at the beginning" and then building up to the action?

Most of us here are probably inclined more to sword OR laser and so the other genre is newer to us. Also maybe lots of you have read many current works and are less familiar with older (say 60s 70s 80s) stuff.

Making broad generalizations I know, but just out of curiosity, did you have trouble because of unfamiliarity of style, now that I've asked you to look back and reflect? There are so many lemmed threads about the books, where many people seem to give up very early in a work, and maybe now that you've been exposed to a broader selection of styles it has made you more tolerant?

[Serendi]

I've read widely enough that I don't think it's *unfamiliarity* that drops me out, it's "I don't wanna." In other words, I know perfectly well what I'm getting into, it's just not a favorite style.

This is partly a side effect of the degree of burnout I'm experiencing at the time; I'm currently rereading a ton of stuff because I have four books a month I "should" read for various book clubs, and I overdid on trying to get through stuff I don't wanna, so I'm reading relaxing stuff. It's really quite lovely. I'm working on some of the book club books *too*, but I guess that's the problem; when the operative verb is "working," I start to wonder why I'm doing it.

I have, however, occasionally found stuff I'm now thoroughly hooked on via book clubs (the Psy-Changeling series, forex). So I keep coming back.

Also, I'm starting to realize I need to pick up the reading pace in certain books; makes 'em much more fun. Other books, you really can't or you'll miss too much. I developed my usual pace decades ago and don't vary it enough.

ETA: I don't read the way most people do; I always read ends, and I often skip around a lot so I know what happens (I look at it as an armature for a real read later, which may or may not happen). I also don't consider it "lemming" when I decide not to continue with a book, because that seems too forceful for what I do. And I have noticed some people who stop books (especially in Vaginal Fantasy) because they're intentionally fluff and the reader doesn't seem to know what to do with a fluff book. So I dunno....

[Deon]

For me it isn't genre related at all. I've read sci-fi and fantasy equally (sci-fi from my Mom's side, fantasy came from my step-dad's side) and I never know what's coming until I'm there. I've had ambiguous action filled fantasy issues as much as slow starting sci-fi. I really think it has more to do with the balance of character/story/setting.

Then again, there is only one reason to lem a book, really. You don't have faith that it will become a more enjoyable experience. I think I am most faithful when I trust the author, rather than the genre.

[Brad Theado]

I have a 100 page rule. if you can't hook me by 100 pages, I drop it.

[Michele]

So when asked by the club to read a book by an author you have no knowledge of are you less likely to read on despite something like archaic language style or technobabble?

I found an old thread where someone read the first page of a book, which was a prologue with some bard singing or something, and then lemmed it because of "passive tense" and then people jumped all over the post. And almost every past book section I've looked through there is a thread where someone says they are bored or don't like the language style or something similar.

I guess I'm asking, if people say they are looking for new and different reading experiences then within a few chapters start complaining because it may take some "work" or at least a willingness to accept difference, are they really just looking for something comfortable and familiar, but with a fresh twist?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to read stuff you already know you like, but saying a book is terrible or boring or what have you, because you didn't like the style of writing, well that seems a bit shallow. Especially here where we constantly try new books in different aspects of the catch-all "SF/F". By all means, if you don't like hard scifi or epic fantasy don't feel compelled to read, but understand that if you try something new, it may be uncomfortable at first.

I wasn't carried away by Ringworld, but I'm glad I read it for the exposure to an older era of science fiction, and while I didn't find the technical writing of it to be impressive, I found the vision and ideas explored to be worthy ones. I bitched about the characters, but read it and felt that at least I learned something from it, if only that I'm a character-driven reader mostly.

Sorry if I'm tl;dr about this, it just that going back through the last few years of book discussions and finding so many lem threads about "boring" or language style "too flowery" within the first few chapters made me kind of mad. I don't need to join a club to read the same old stuff I know and love, I want to find new stuff to try and to learn why others love it.

I read a lot, I read pretty fast, and I have found plenty of time to devote to reading - I like a little work/exercise in my hobby. And I can always grab a Pern book or something when I just want easy mindless entertainment.

If you don't like it, don't read it. But I hope its not a knee-jerk reaction to pure different-ness that stops you from reading a book.

[Deon]

I think a knee jerk reaction to what is different is exactly what it is, but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. I haven't completely given up on a book in a long time, but I have come close, and to me, posting that I have this issue or that with the book is more of a cry for help (actual assistance) more than anything. I might be alone in that, I know there are some that will just give up and wait for the next book. I think, though, that it is helpful to know others are having trouble with it too, or that someone who has finished it is giving you a push to keep going. I would worry more about closed minds if you didn't see people complaining.

[Alicja]

There are too many books that I've started to read in many genres that the language or style wasn't the usual I was used to or that I just wasn't into that I would have regretted if I haven't persevered. Recently, I read 2312, it is sci-fi, which I generally prefer to fantasy, but the style was just so different and the plot for the first 150 pages almost non-existent that I was tempted to just drop. But I needed the read for a challenge so I persevered and in the end I was more than glad that I did because everything finally started to fall together, the plot picked up, and I became used to another style of writing. I had the same initial reactions to At Swim, Two Boys and Blackout among others. If I had abandoned at the beginning when it was hard to get through I would have missed some of my favorite novels of all time. It doesn't happen all the time but quitting too early, regardless of genre, can mean you are missing out on something great that is just taking some time to get there.

[Rick]

Michele,

I've actually never understood people who join a book club but don't seem to want to try anything that's not immediately appealing to them. I'm not saying anyone should read a book that's actively painful, but posting after a handful of chapters "Oh, it's slow" is more about the attention span and gratification expectations of the reader than the book.

That said, I'm with Brad - a book that's not doing it for me after 100 pages or so might get dropped. After all, that's 1/4 to 1/3 of most books and is plenty of time to introduce characters, etc. Of course, what hooks me might not hook others so while someone else might think 'gee, this is slow' I might be involved with a character and read on to see what happens to them.

Slow pace is also an issue when reading the first book in a series and from what I can tell series are more common in fantasy than in science fiction this, if a slower opening pace bothers someone, it's more likely that they'll note it in fantasy picks. I don't see that purely as a genre thing since fantasy CAN be a single volume. This, btw, is one reason I dislike doing first books as a pick - you get the buildup but not, as part of S&L, the payoff.

[Joe Informatico]

I've been a fan of both sword and laser all my life, and don't find the differences in writing styles too disruptive. Since I joined S&L with The Lies of Locke Lamora, I've only lemmed Downbelow Station, and that had more to do with that month being exceptionally busy--I fully intend to finish it before the end of the year. (To be fair, I'd read almost half of last year's picks before, but reread all of them except Among Others and Redshirts since it had only been 6 months since I read them).

I think you see the SF vis-a-vis fantasy distinction more with older books. Epic fantasy in particular often comes in hefty volumes, and thanks to Tolkien, often tell their stories in 3 to 5 of them, so your typical epic fantasy story is anywhere from 500 to 1200 pages.

Meanwhile, most of the Golden Age SF classics are short, standalone volumes. Rarely have I read one with more than 350 pages in paperback, with the occasional exception like Dune or Stranger in a Strange Land. And even when they're part of a series, the books are rarely as interdependent as an epic fantasy trilogy would be. Sword and sorcery fantasy of the same era, as opposed to epic fantasy, seems to be of similar length.

Both fantasy and SF books today seem more eager to grab the reader from the beginning, so I find devices like first-person narration, in media res, and cold open or flash-forward prologues that immediately jump back to the main narrative pretty common in both genres these days. I assume that's because we've had a whole generation or two of authors grow up with television, writing for audiences who also grew up with television, so they're adopting some of the storytelling conventions of TV and film for narrative prose.*

*Most of these devices were used in prose fiction first, but they were just some of the tools in the writer's arsenal. Whereas film and television writing of the past 10-20 years relies heavily on them.

[AndrewP]

I'm pretty open minded about club selections and I haven't lemmed any, even though there have been a couple I really disliked.

For me, reading the S&L pick is a matter of availability. If it's not at the library, or I can't find it at the second hand store I'm probably going to skip it. Purchasing full price books I reserve for authors I know I am going to enjoy, not the 50/50 crap shoot of the S&L pick.

[Rich]

Michele wrote: "Sorry if I'm tl;dr about this, it just that going back through the last few years of book discussions and finding so many lem threads about "boring" or language style "too flowery" within the first few chapters made me kind of mad. I don't need to join a club to read the same old stuff I know and love, I want to find new stuff to try and to learn why others love it."

I largely agree with your original and followup comments. I'm sure it's not the case all of the time, but I do believe that when people read outside their comfort zone, they're likely quicker to complain and lem than someone who's reading in a genre (or, especially, with an author) that they're already familiar with.

I think that the reactions to the recent club choice of "Downbelow Station" is a perfect example. People were jumping off that boat like it was the Titanic. Some folks just didn't seem to have the patience to read thru the book. Perhaps people in general are just more easily distracted these days.

I also recall that guy who lemmed after one page. My thought there was that he was just trying to be first.

[terpkristin]

I try to try all the books. This year I am definitely trying all of them. I don't like some of them, but have had some gems, too.

[Rick]

I don't equate being open minded with needing to finish every pick. I do think that if you're serious about a club you need to give each pick a real try. For me, that's ~100 pages or so, not a page or 10 or a chapter. But if something is boring you or you hate it and you're 100 pages in, it's fine to stop.

Being open-minded is on the trying, not the finishing.

[Rich]

Rick wrote: "Being open-minded is on the trying, not the finishing."

That's good (and quotable!) way of putting it.

[Deon]

Though I don't do it as much with books, with other story media I like to be able to give a reason, a sound logical reason that I can back up, if I'm going to stop before the end. That way, when the person (or group) who recommended it tries to get me to finish, I can defend my decision. If I can't defend it, I go right back to the story.

Then I really let loose if it was bad the whole way through ;)