The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts

[Nell]

This thread is for the Group Read for December 2013/January 2014, but having read it on Gina's recommendation I feel it's important that members read it as soon as possible, especially if they are already channelling spirit guides or thinking of doing so, and Gina agrees.

[Nell]

Having finished the book yesterday, my thoughts today are that the implications of this book are even further reaching than they first seem, spreading to infiltrate the practices of lucid dreaming, astral travelling and shamanism/healing, perhaps even into cases of supposed reincarnation and memory of past lives. How can anyone know what is true and untainted?

[Little]

Nell wrote: "This thread is for the Group Read for December 2013/January 2014, but having read it on Gina's recommendation I feel it's important that members read it as soon as possible, especially if they are ..."

I'm hoping that others will read it soon and join us in discussing it, Nell. This book has gobsmacked me. So to my own recent experience. I think this has implications for shamanic journeys too. Also I am shocked by how many religions and spiritual movements have been founded in prophecy.

I'll be back tomorrow afternoon to plunge in.

[Nell]

I've de-highlighted the Choose a Book Here thread, as I want this one to be visible and find a natural place on the Discussions Board.

Little wrote: Also I am shocked by how many religions and spiritual movements have been founded in prophecy.

Indeed...


And in addition to my post above, I'm now asking myself if meditation can open a door that would be better kept shut.

[Aaron, Moderator]

I guess if you want to make a religion and have it take off, and not just be a niche cult, you have to advertise in advance.

[Aaron, Moderator]

Nell wrote: "I'm now asking myself if meditation can open a door that would be better kept shut."

There are Xtians who believe that meditation opens the door for the devil to talk to you.

The adwait philosophy is that it's all you anyway, so what's to be afraid of. When you close your eyes, you commune with the Param Aatma, the supreme soul, which is God, and also you. If voices are talking to you, let them witter away, and keep focusing on what you're meditating on. don't let it bother you.

[Aaron, Moderator]

That said, even Adwait advises that people who practice meditation should have a decent head on their shoulders, because if the Kundalini power rises, and the channels are blocked, it can drive a person mad.

[Little]

If you can get a hold of a copy of this book Aaron, please do. I think you will be shocked too. I have just experienced this first hand. No joke. Joe Fisher's book describes the discarnate entities, Hungry Ghosts or Pretas, and their behaviour to a T. I would never have believed it.

"Madame Blavatsky affirmed long ago that "your best, your most powerful mediums, have all suffered in health and body and mind." Other authorities have stated that mediumship, while sometimes culminating in insanity, leads frequently to the atrophy of brain tissue, the degeneracy of mental powers and increasing egotism and emotionalism. Such testimony tallies, indirectly, with the contaminating presence of hungry ghosts. If mediumship is indeed synonymous with negativity and disintegration, only dissolute astral beings would participate in such a process."

And this (The Great Psychological Crime):

"It may be accepted as an axiom of spiritual life that no spiritual intelligence...who has learned the meaning and the results of the mediumship process, and who is honest, will never subject any individual of earth to the blighting influence of mediumship control. Whoever does so thereby convicts himself of either gross ignorance, deliberate dishonesty or unconscionable immorality."

Quotes from TSCOHG: "When all is said and done, there is no shortcut to Nirvana. But in this narcissistic age of instant gratification and swift solution, the great deception of channeling is that we may glide effortlessly back to the Godhead. All we have is pay our money, take our seats and dream on as loving discarnates lead us to enlightenment. Why, the Big E. is just around the corner and anyway - didn't you know? - we are God."

"Many bogus gurus have succeeded in the West the same way. In fact, in the late 1970's a world-famous Mayavadi yoga society was almost shaken apart when a Sanskrit-quoting preta that claimed to be the group's deceased founder began speaking through a senior staff member. Though at last exposed, the spook held sway over fifty people who deserted the organization rather than give up
their belief that the great yogi had returned to them."

(ETA: removed a questionable link and quote from another source.)

[Aaron, Moderator]

I'm sorry, but it reeks of the usual sort of lemming panic surrounding any spiritual practice. I will check out the book if I get a chance, but I have to tell you, I'm much more interested in reading inspiring material, rather than bubble popping stuff.

Let me be clear. There is absolutely no relation between channeling and meditation whatsoever. Channelling is a very low and mean form of spirituality, generally speaking. Not to be too sweeping, but the idea is to do it yourself, not submit yourself to some strange entity you barely know. Channelling is one of the practices described in Vibhooti Pad in Patanjali. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Kaivalya-Liberation. It's about power, not spiritual evolution. Meditation is about confronting your true self, and if you're talking to some nitwit in your head in your meditation, you're not really meditating. You're entertaining yourself and wasting your time.

I am as suspicious of capricornian minded naysayers as I am of starry eyed spiritual nincompoops.

Now about the spirits. Encountering a nasty spirit is indeed very upsetting, but it doesn't mean you're going to meet one every time you venture into the ethereal realm, in the same way you're not going to encounter a rapist every time you step outside your door. Caution is good, but living according to fear is quite useless, either in the spiritual arena or in life in general.

I find people who write books with the express purpose of debunking a belief system they find vexing to be very sad and wasteful. I'm not saying that's the case here, but if it is, I'm telling you now, I'm not reading it.

I'm quite familiar with Pretas, (the correct pronunciation is actually Prayt), because my roommate has one in his village. They're quite prevalent where I live.

Finally, anyone who takes up any spiritual practice should have enough of a brain not to confuse a God with a ghost. At no point should anyone surrenderer their intelligence to a God, Guru, or spirit. That's not what spirituality is for. It's to achieve mukti-freedom. The key is in the name. You can't achieve it by becoming a Zombie.

Okay I apologize for having a slight rant there, but I was overcome. Blessed be.

[Nell]

I'd been editing information about Helena Blavatsky for the August newsletter when I read that quote of hers - it had quite an impact - powerful stuff.

[Little]

Aaron wrote: "I'm sorry, but it reeks of the usual sort of lemming panic surrounding any spiritual practice. I will check out the book if I get a chance, but I have to tell you, I'm much more interested in readi..."

It's not. It was written by one deeply involved. But this book isn't about meditation but mediumship and channeling. I'd say read it and see what you think. He wasn't trying to debunk a belief system, he was trying to warn people who have no concept of what they are dealing with, and do not consider the reality of Pretas or Hungry Ghosts. He didn't benefit from revealing any of this either, quite the opposite.

[Little]

Nell wrote: "I'd been editing information about Helena Blavatsky for the August newsletter when I read that quote of hers - it had quite an impact - powerful stuff."

Yes, it summed it up for me. Very powerful.

[Aaron, Moderator]

Oh okay, fair enough.

[Little]

Thought I'd cut and paste this here, re Joe Fisher's background.


"Joe Fisher, 53, author of The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, died on Wednesday, May 9, 2001, by jumping off a limestone cliff at Elora Gorge, near his hometown of Fergus, Ontario, Canada. A variety of personal problems, including a growing list of unpaid bills for the writer, appeared to have pushed him over the edge. In one of his last communications with his editor-in-chief, Patrick Huyghe at Paraview Books, Fisher noted that the spirits were still after him for having written his final book.

Joe Fisher was an investigative writer specializing in metaphysical topics. His books had sold more than one million copies in 22 languages.

Andrew Joseph Fisher was born and educated in England; he held dual citizenship with Canada, his home base since 1971. He regularly gave workshops and seminars based on his explorations into the supernatural.

A veteran broadcaster who gave more than 200 radio and television interviews on his work, Fisher started his career as a junior reporter on The Staffordshire Advertiser where he became, at 22 years of age, the youngest news editor in England. After emigrating to Canada, he worked as an investigative reporter and feature writer for both The Toronto Sun and The Toronto Star. His journalistic stints were interspersed with excursions to Greece, Ireland, Ecuador, Morocco and Peru where he pursued personal writing projects. At Ecuador's Colegio Americano in Quito, he taught English and composed journals which were later edited for the book Cotopaxi Visions: Travels in Ecuador.

In 1981, Joe Fisher left daily journalism to concentrate on writing books and freelance articles. Since then, he has traveled widely (Australia and Antarctica are recent destinations) and contributed to periodicals ranging from Canada's national dailies, The National Post and The Globe & Mail, to magazines including Outpost, Equinox, Ocean Drive and Life & Soul.

Joe Fisher's books included the contemporary metaphysical classics The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, Life Between Life, The Case For Reincarnation and Predictions. While His Holiness The Dalai Lama wrote the preface to The Case For Reincarnation, film rights to Hungry Ghosts have been optioned to a Los Angeles film company which is moving towards production.

For five years, Fisher painstakingly investigated the claims of channelers and the mysterious voices that speak through them. The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, his last book, is his gripping journey into a realm of darkness and deception. The revised edition includes a new foreword by Colin Wilson, and an epilogue that updates events since the book was first published in the U.K. a decade ago.

In 1987, Fisher was presented with The Leask Award by The Spiritual Science Institute of Canada for "making an outstanding contribution to the field of spiritual awareness."

Many in the publishing community, as well as friends of Fisher's, are expressing shock at his death. A Fergus-area friend, writer Sheila O'Hearn said: "He believed in giving of himself for other people. He felt, for him, that's what life was all about." Her husband, Ray Krzyzanowski remarked: "He's going to be really missed. He was my only real friend here. I'm going to miss him.'

Fisher's family have decided there will be no services.

--Loren Coleman"



http://www.anomalist.com/milestones/f...

[Nell]

Aaron wrote: "I'm sorry, but it reeks of the usual sort of lemming panic surrounding any spiritual practice. I will check out the book if I get a chance, but I have to tell you, I'm much more inter..."

For me, knowledge of Gina's recent trauma and the author's suicide added tremendous weight and veracity to the book, which doesn't actually cite meditation or the other practices I mentioned as risky - they were thoughts that occurred to me the day after finishing the book.

But the voice of caution in the other direction is good to hear. Do try to read it if you can Aaron - the author (a healthily skeptical investigative journalist) became very caught up in it before the awful truth struck.

[Little]

Re my suspicion of religions and spiritual movements founded in, or featuring prophecies and prophets, and those in which prophets spoke to 'angels' or manifestations of 'gods' or 'goddesses' I thought I'd post these links too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divination

The celebrity entities:
Seth (Spirit) through medium Jane Roberts
Ramtha through J.Z. Knight
Lazaris

[Sara]

Perhaps I should read this book before making any comment, though I do want to address something earlier in the thread. My comments are directed toward the concern about shamanic journeying. As an active shamanic practitioner, I have journeyed many times. I do not see this work as akin in any way to mediumship or channeling. Yes, there can be shamans who use the tools for power and personal gain. Yes, it is possible to encounter unfriendly entities on a journey. Some of these may in fact be dangerous. Most of us are well protected by our allies on these journeys, and have acquired some skill in working with the less than positive entities we meet. It is not something best done by an inexperienced novice on their own. I have spent many years with a teacher, and still consider myself a novice. Like anything, it helps to "obey" the rules of the road. It would be foolhardy to deny that malevolence is out there. I certainly have had my own encounters, though never through my journeying. In shamanic practice, it is all about environment, technique and developing/acquiring skills--very much a "walk before you run" environment if properly taught.

I will try and give this book a read--need to acquire a copy first. It may cause me to change my mind about this. For now, I feel as safe journeying as I do crossing the street. Some days the latter can be quite dangerous.

[Nell]

Thanks Sara, it's invaluable to hear from someone with your direct experience in shamanic journeying. I hope you do find time to read the book, I'd be very interested to know what you think of it.

[Little]

Sara wrote: "Perhaps I should read this book before making any comment, though I do want to address something earlier in the thread. My comments are directed toward the concern about shamanic journeying. As a..."

The big difference seems to be you are not inviting anything to enter through you Sara. The book is essential reading though, not only to give another larger perspective on the Hungry Ghosts, and the dangers they pose, but also because someone has to sound the warning, and quickly. We need to pass Joe's message on. The New Age community don't seem to be heeding it so far.

[Sara]

Thanks, Nell. I am always happy to try and clarify issues with which I'm familiar.

Yes, Gina, that's correct. In journeying, I am not inviting anything, good or bad, to return with me, other than the knowledge I'm shown. For example, I might learn of an application of a specific crystal, or plant. Or I might gain insight even about a personal issue. I take my allies with me, and for the most part, my allies have been identified in ordinary reality. I journey as part of my healing practice, and strive to serve community, which is the true role of a shaman (not that I am one, at least not yet).

OK, OK, I'll get the book already, as long as I can put it down if it scares the you know what out of me, a la Mr. King. :-)

[Little]

Sara wrote: "Thanks, Nell. I am always happy to try and clarify issues with which I'm familiar.

Yes, Gina, that's correct. In journeying, I am not inviting anything, good or bad, to return with me, other th..."

:):) Best read during daylight hours. I finished it close to midnight, then was unfortunate enough to find that the outside dunny light had blown. A rather fraught visit to the outhouse it was!

[Little]

Also re the destructive nature of the channeled entities messages and advice. In my case the first thing that I was advised to do in the letter (I received a mass of articles too that contained much more poison, coated in saccharine sweetness) was to start eating meat. Second was to get some billy goats for our farm.

Both suggestions put my back up. Both are aimed to cause damage and strife. One billy goat would be trouble enough. Two would be mad. Also it's interesting to note that in Joe's book he talks about how much Hungry Ghosts are said to crave meat. This woman who is channeling this nasty was also originally a vegetarian, but her 'angel' wasn't having a bar of it.

Also she gets the ringing in her ears when she doesn't listen to him. She broke her arm by getting an urge to jump on the trampoline, then felt her legs were no longer her own to control. She fell, busted her arm. Also this creep told her to have her womb removed, despite doctor's strong advice against it, as there was nothing wrong with it. The damage and mischief done to her life has increased bit by bit. The arm breaking incident being one of the most recent. I think there is also a real risk that she will end up suiciding. I'm not alone in this thought.

Adding a link to a few more New Age author's angel books that people need to exercise caution when reading: Doreen Virtue, Asandra, Richard Webster, Arthur Hastings.

[Sara]

LOL, I knew I didn't read those books for a reason. I much prefer the ancient Egyptian perspective, and Sekhmet is well up to handling these sorts of issues.

Speaking of this reminds me I'd best get busy and plan a post on the book I'm moderating for August and September. :-)

[Little]

Sara wrote: "LOL, I knew I didn't read those books for a reason. I much prefer the ancient Egyptian perspective, and Sekhmet is well up to handling these sorts of issues.

Speaking of this reminds me I'd best ..."

Must admit they aren't my thing either.

I have the Egyptian Mythology book on my kindle and ready to go. :):)

[Aaron, Moderator]

Little wrote: "In my case the first thing that I was advised to do in the letter (I received a mass of articles too that contained much more poison, coated in saccharine sweetness) was to start eating meat. Second was to get some billy goats for our farm."
I think in your place, I'd be inclined to take the opposite course in both cases. Your vegetarianism is very beneficial to you, and for Goddess's sake, stay away from goats, maybe even Capricorns altogether!

[Little]

Aaron wrote: "Little wrote: "In my case the first thing that I was advised to do in the letter (I received a mass of articles too that contained much more poison, coated in saccharine sweetness) was to start eat..."

I totally agree about my vegetarianism too Aaron. I actually have two goats, but they are neutered, very gentle creatures ( a little cheeky of course, like all goats). But billy goats are testosterone driven aggression. No way I'd get one, let alone two. You know after I realised that this woman (re the discussion in the Rapture thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1... ) had channeled a nasty (Hungry Ghost), after my terror, I started to feel resentful that this thing had thought me such a fool as to follow his lies.

I think I have managed to convince my husband to read this book, which is some feat. (The agreement was if he enjoyed the writing style.) My husband is a near to complete skeptic, and I push him to his limits in my pursuit of meaning. I have ordered a paperback copy, as he downright loathes my kindle. Here's hoping...

[Nell]

Perhaps I'm seeing the possibilities of hungry ghosts in too many places, but yesterday another thought occurred. A week or so ago I read Old Souls: Compelling Evidence From Children Who Remember Past Lives, and yesterday it struck me that these supposedly old souls reincarnated in children seemed to check out in much the same way as the spirits in the book about Hungry Ghosts - i.e. some facts were correct while other things the children said didn't add up at all.

One little girl believed she was the dead wife a man in the next village - she knew his name, recognized members of the family without being prompted and convinced the man that it was all true. She had to see him often and lavished him with affection. His wife was not exactly happy.

Disturbing.

[Little]

Nell wrote: "Perhaps I'm seeing the possibilities of hungry ghosts in too many places, but yesterday another thought occurred. A week or so ago I read Old Souls: Compelling Evidence From Children Who Remembe..."

I'm seeing the many possibilities too, Nell. I've been thinking of human history and our barbaric times, how preferable that raw energy would be to those who are still craving the physical realm, and are unable to pass on.

When I think about how many 'angels' or the like appeared in western and eastern religions, and the antics of the global pantheon of twelve, and the multitude of splinter Christian groups founded in prophecy, and the rogue doomsdays, and how much that has dragged us backwards into wars, and suffering, and separatism, and well, I want to just ditch the lot. So I have.

I can see why the New Age movement didn't respond to this book, though. Not only would the 'guides' and 'angels' and 'ascended masters' not appreciate the message, but the industry is making big bucks with their channeling books, and 'angel' cards and whatnot.

I have some new thoughts that I'll post tomorrow. Migraine bruised brain needs sleep now.

Best to you Nell. :)

[Little]

ETA I'm not that courageous in the telling after all.

[Nell]

This is very courageous of you Gina - both the telling and the severing of that long cord. I'm sure though that you'll continue in strength with your family and the beauty of the lovely Earth around you.

I remember you writing about your beliefs on another thread and saying how they were not fixed in stone and that you reserved the right to change whenever needful. Will you search now for a new set of spiritual practices or remain a free... - I won't say 'spirit' in view of those hungry ones - maybe 'soul' is better :)

[Sara]

Hi Gina, my best to you. It cannot be easy to sever an association of such long duration. I have been with Sekhmet since I was a child as well, though the pattern only became clear when I was grown. I cannot imagine circumstances where I would sever that connection, though certainly anything is possible. I am reminded here of one of Sekhmet's primary dictates, which has been repeated to me in many circumstances, and not only by her teaching. "Let go of that which no longer serves." I consider them words to live by, even if imperfectly.

I agree with Nell. The earth is a remarkable healer. As for the stones, I recommend clear quartz and black tourmaline. It is my oft-used cleansing grid--6 of each.

[Little]

Thanks Sara and Nell. I will seek out those stones too Sara. I'm reading more about Buddhism, to help me on my path, but I think I will remain a free soul. :)

[Little]

“I don't hold with paddlin' with the occult," said Granny firmly. "Once you start paddlin' with the occult you start believing in spirits, and when you start believing in spirits you start believing in demons, and then before you know where you are you're believing in gods. And then you're in trouble."
"But all them things exist," said Nanny Ogg.
"That's no call to go around believing in them. It only encourages 'em.”
Lords and Ladies

:):)

[Sara]

:) :) Indeed

[Aaron, Moderator]

"Practitioners may attempt to conjure demons, or invoke angels. Under no circumstances should you attempt to invoke demons, or conjure angels. You don't want to know what would happen. Trust us."

[Aaron, Moderator]

That was my favourite Terry Pratchet by the way Gina.

[Little]

Aaron wrote: "That was my favourite Terry Pratchet by the way Gina."

I love it too! Pratchett is amazing when you think about it. His description of the Bardo as being a dark desert, which the souls must cross, is great. His knowledge of the fairy folk and hungry ghosts is spot on too. I could do worse than setting up a new religion in the name of Sir Terry. :D

[Aaron, Moderator]

Oh yes, I find him to be one of the most authentically pagan fantasy writers.

[Little]

Aaron wrote: "Oh yes, I find him to be one of the most authentically pagan fantasy writers."

Yes, and Granny and Nanny are the best, most realistic witches in literature. Damn glad I don't have Nanny as a mother-in-law though!

[Little]

Adding this book to the thread as it is very relevant, re prophecy, channeling, mediumship, and trance-state apocalyptic messages, and their negative effects.

The End of the World as We Know It by Daniel Wojcik
My review: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

[Little]

And this one helps to restore some sense of equilibrium after reading Joe's book, and when trying to get an idea of a possible bigger picture: Daimonic Reality: A Field Guide to the Otherworld by Patrick Harpur

[Little]

Not sure who is going to join me in (re) reading this one. It sent me off on a flurry of further reading (everything from the Book of Enoch to Fortean phenomena) that eventually answered some of my questions, but left others. The biggest remaining one for me: is attachment possible? And how much influence has the Otherworld(s) on ours?

I think shamanic practitioners and hedge riders will be aware of the possible trickery of some in the realms beyond the veil. From what I've read caution and discernment are exercised by those journeying. I'm interested in their reactions to this book.

I suspect I am not the only one who finds it horribly naive when the group involved in The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, when asked "To whom do they wish to speak", reply "To whoever will answer."

[Nell]

I've recently re-read it, and found a question I asked earlier answered - at least two people who later became mediums were first contacted during meditation.

[Little]

Nell wrote: "I've recently re-read it, and found a question I asked earlier answered - at least two people who later became mediums were first contacted during meditation."

I think some people are always more receptive. The woman that channels the entity that calls itself Ramtha watched him appear in broad daylight in her house. (And what a lucrative appearance that turned out to be...)

Thought to add this quote by Colin Wilson from the intro of The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts:

"Before I was halfway through this book, I realised that The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts is one of those permanent classics of the paranormal, like Tyrrell's Apparitions and Myer's Human Personality and Its Survival of Bodily Death. And before I had finished it, I became aware that it is also one of the most disturbing books about ghosts ever written."

So my other big remaining question concerns the true nature of the 'spirit guides'. These paragraphs, quoting a spirit medium who wrote of her experiences to Joe Fisher, sum it up well:

"I read with interest your view that what we are dealing with is 'lost souls'. Personally, I feel this is too kind an interpretation. The typical image of a lost soul would be of a spirit trapped between worlds, perhaps unaware of its physical death, groping in an ignorance which prevents it from having the ability to progress. Compare this to the entities we have both experienced. They are masters of deception: they are articulate and eloquent with vast knowledge of philosophy at their disposal, whether fabricated or otherwise. They are able to cooperate and liaise sufficiently with others of their kind to devise strategies against us and maintain a continuity of information given to us. They have apparently limitless powers of precognition and access to any information they choose--past, present or future--enabling them, among other things, to impersonate whomsoever they wish with ease. This is not my idea of a poor lost soul stumbling in darkness.

The one thing I think we have both established beyond doubt is this: they are smart. They are very smart. Any lost soul this intelligent would surely have the ability and knowledge to progress to some higher state. If theses souls are simply too evil to do so, and therefore have no knowledge of any supposedly higher realm, where do they obtain their vast understanding of philosophy? Not from living in a dark void trapped between worlds, that's for sure."

So I don't think these 'spirit guides' are hungry ghosts, or lost souls anymore either. Nor do I agree with the Christian mindset that these type of entities are demons. I think they are Old Ones, and like us, there are among them those we would term malevolent, benevolent, and some who are just plain indifferent to us.

Also linking this thread back to our discussion of the quaffing of ayahuasca (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...) and Supernatural: Meetings with the Ancient Teachers of Mankind the author Graham Hancock talks of different entities glimpsed whilst 'journeying' in that altered state, and speaks of them as the ancient teachers of mankind. Perhaps some of them have been our teachers, and others our tormentors.

From my own experience with channeled entities, the clincher lay in the messages themselves. At their core lay a callous exclusivity, and an egoistical quest for uniqueness and power. It was as if the entity (I refuse to name it) was playing to human weakness.

The request that I start eating meat, among others, felt like a regression not an advancement to my spiritual well being. And although I don't want to reveal the exact messages, any entity that claims that Pol Pot and Hitler are now angels, and sometimes in order to achieve great good you have to show the world through actions of great evil, is not an entity I want to have anything to do with.

I agree with others that the method of trance mediumship is fraught with possible dangers and trickery, and I doubt benevolent beings would communicate this way.

[Aaron, Moderator]

Nell wrote: "I've recently re-read it, and found a question I asked earlier answered - at least two people who later became mediums were first contacted during meditation."

I would still argue with that one Nell. I think it's possible to be contacted during meditation, but I'd find it unlikely if the future mediums concerned were truly meditating.

The purpose of meditation is to afford you mental, if not spiritual, fortitude. If anything, it should enable you to battle such entities. In meditation you would be exercising, strengthening, and focusing the power of concentration. Traditionally meditation is used to gain detachment from one's own whims and desires, which would seem to me to make you that much more able to resists the whims and desires of spirit entities.

I would find it much more likely that spirit guides would attempt to contact a person through dream, since in that state, the mental and spiritual muscles are more flaccid, and prone to whimsy.

[Little]

Aaron wrote: "Nell wrote: "I've recently re-read it, and found a question I asked earlier answered - at least two people who later became mediums were first contacted during meditation."

I would still argue wit..."

I think meditation (self hypnosis is my version) and lucid dreaming are an increasing part of my self awareness. My original fear (yes, possibly terror) and subsequent period of paranoia, has subsided with the realisation that agreement is needed before anyone, or anything, can manipulate you. Joe Fisher's group was a prime example. They wanted, no, actively sought communication, then control, loosely termed 'guidance', from others. They were cult fodder. Sorry to put it so crudely. We are all looking for answers but we need to exercise caution and discernment when possibly receiving them.

[Aaron, Moderator]

Very well said, and "cult fodder" is not too harsh a word for people who refuse to think for themselves. I knew kids in school who I would term such, due to their willingness to follow trends for the sake of approval.

[Nell]

Thanks for copying the letter, Gina - I don't remember seeing it before and it seems a very logical assessment of these spirits.

Aaron, I agree that one has a choice, but don't forget how seductive these entities are with their seeming wisdom, care and 'love'.

But forewarned is forearmed, and although at first feeling that in the two doctors channeled by mediums he had identified helpful and loving spirits, Joe Fisher eventually came to believe that these were dishonest too.

[Aaron, Moderator]

Personally I'd advise against following any entity encountered in dream or meditation, no matter how friendly. Listening to an entity in meditation, would not constitute meditation, is all I'm saying. It would constitute entertainment at best. The meditation I do is a training to ignore your own thoughts, and commune with the pure consciousness of the self. How frivolous would it be for me to start listening to an entity, which by definition would be communion in a dualistic interaction.

I do agree that entities are typically drawn to meditators. I'm not sure why this is, but I've heard it. Some people believe that adepts in the field of meditation have the power to liberate ghosts from their state of listless wandering, and the ghosts actively pursue meditators and saints in the hope of getting released.

I do not think that meditators are more prone to possession or suggestibility. It just doesn't make sense based on what I know about meditation. For myself I've never encountered one of these entities.

I'd made a previous post about an inner voice, but that was actually a part of my own psyche which I severed from the rest of my brain in order to get an unemotional response to certain problems, but it was very much something I did myself. It's like asking a question, then invoking a certain mood of neutrality, and then answering it yourself. At a certain point I fancied that this neutral mood had attained a consciousness of its own, but I never lost sight of the fact that it was me to begin with.

[Nell]

I understand your point, Aaron. Perhaps it's possible that the meditators allowed their focus to lapse, and slipped into a more trance-like state in which the entities were more easily able to make themselves heard.

I'm reading The Tibetan Yogas Of Dream And Sleep at the moment - hungry ghosts are mentioned early on as inhabiting one of the six realms of cyclic existence.

The author states: Fundamentally, the six realms are six dimensions of consciousness, six dimensions of possible experience.