The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts

[Aaron, Moderator]

It's possible I have a very strict notion of what meditation is Nell. I've been known to break into a sweat while meditating. Anyway, I've derailed the topic in my passion as usual. Looking forward to reading this book.

[Little]

The letter is from the epilogue. The woman was a spirit guided medium. I think it was the epilogue that sent me searching for other answers in books on Fortean phenomena.

The entities Joe Fisher's group faced were very seductive, but I found it amazing how none of the group wanted to listen to Joe when he presented them with the results of his investigation. That was just unbelievable. They had a choice, were given too many unpleasant truths to ignore, but still they chose to continue following the 'guides'.

Joe himself never got over Filipa. He never truly wanted to, and so he was spirit ridden until his death. But I don't think it would have been possible had he really severed ties with her. This is the thing, all the talk of spirit possession and attachment, I think there has to be some sort of complicity for it to happen.

I think the doctors were dishonest too. Dr Pinkerton disgusted me by calling his medium his 'instrument'. I thought that telling in itself. But why didn't the medium herself have any reservations? Again it just seemed like a complete willingness to believe and follow.

Re dreams and meditation, I've actually talked to quite a few entities in my dreams. I have travelled with them too. But here is what I think separates meditation, dreams, hypnosis, journeying etc, from channeling and trance mediumship, you are not inviting anything in. I don't think meditators are more prone to attachment or suggestion either. Also I think the type of person who is looking for someone (spirit guide, ascended master etc), or some movement/religion/philosophy to follow, is less likely to be attracted to the idea of meditation. It's no quick thrill or fix, it has no strong belief structure to cling to, or to find prestige or uniqueness in. It takes mental discipline and self awareness, both of which are relinquished when one uses the trance medium state. (Not talking about a trance state either, but one in which the spirit is allowed possession of the medium's body and vocal cords.)

Aaron wrote: "Some people believe that adepts in the field of meditation have the power to liberate ghosts from their state of listless wandering, and the ghosts actively pursue meditators and saints in the hope of getting released. "

I have read about this quite a lot lately too.

Edgar Cayce also wrote that: "There are those influences from without the veil that seek, seek, that they may find an expression, that they may still be a portion of this evolution in the earth, not considering their present estate. And these bring turmoil and strife."

Re the seductive lies that the entities wove in The Siren Call, the first thing they utilised was flattery. They encouraged feelings of exclusivity, then sowed discord through denoting some and raising others.

In my experience the entity also used flattery immediately, and continued with this through the later messages channelled for me. The flattery backfired as I knew what he was saying about me wasn't true. I know my own flaws and weakness all too well. :) But I really did feel as if I was being lured in, and there seemed to be a hint of desperate eagerness about the entity's attempts, then of course things got bitter...

Nell wrote: "I'm reading The Tibetan Yogas Of Dream And Sleep at the moment - hungry ghosts are mentioned early on as inhabiting one of the six realms of cyclic existence. "

I'm still reading The Tibetan Book of the Dead, and I'm finding the Buddhist idea of the bardos and the six states/realms works along similar lines to the Nordic nine. Also Odin sacrificing himself on the World Tree in order to achieve all knowing or enlightenment is to die before you die. I'm going to add more thoughts and links (when I get the chance) to Psychopomps, Journeying, Hedge Riding and the Otherworld/Bardos/Astral Planes thread:: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[PJ Who Once Was Peejay]

Aaron wrote: "I'd made a previous post about an inner voice, but that was actually a part of my own psyche which I severed from the rest of my brain in order to get an unemotional response to certain problems, but it was very much something I did myself."

I understand this well, Aaron. I used to do "automatic writing." The reason I put it in quotes was that I came to believe that it was really me having a dialogue with my own psyche, or subconscious, or whatever label seems most appropriate. It became a useful tool, when I wanted to get beneath the surface of my own skin and get in touch with what was hidden, but I can see how—if one isn't careful and rigorous—one could come to believe this was something grander (or grandiose?).

The hardest part in any of these disciplines, I think, is being honest with oneself and not buying into romantic notions.

[PJ Who Once Was Peejay]

Little wrote: "Re dreams and meditation, I've actually talked to quite a few entities in my dreams. I have travelled with them too. But here is what I think separates meditation, dreams, hypnosis, journeying etc, from channeling and trance mediumship, you are not inviting anything in."

Also, regarding my "automatic writing," there were times when I was not entirely sure that I wasn't communicating with something outside my own subconscious. It was rare, but the feel of it was entirely different from the "self talk."

The thing is, I started this at a time when I was emotionally very vulnerable and it would have been quite easy for something to sneak in under the radar. I began saying a little prayer before each something, very similar to a protection prayer, and when that was in place I felt secure enough to continue. If something Other was there, I don't think it was a hungry.

However, as you said, I do think there is an element of complicity in this. You have to invite Whatever in, you have to need it so much you lose perspective and discipline. There's a need to feel special that goes along with that complicity, a need to feel chosen. Which is why the flattery and exclusivity work so well. Once you invite something like that to inhabit your life, it's very very difficult to get rid of it again.

[PJ Who Once Was Peejay]

This discussion reminded me just this morning of a book I read some years ago, in that it almost seems like the flip side of The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts. The book I'm thinking of is Conjuring Philip by Iris M. Owen and Margaret Sparrow. The subtitle is "An Adventure in Psychokinesis" and that's exactly what the people involved in this "experiment" set out to do: create a ghost and PK phenomena. They decided to create an imaginary 17th c. aristocrat named Philip and see what would happen. After a lot of trial and error, they finally arrived at a method of getting Philip to show up on command and an astonishing array of physical phenomena began to occur. (Read the second and third reviews on this Amazon page for a very good summation.)

Eventually, this began to take a physical toll on the participants through increased incidents of illness, headaches, et al., and they gave up the experiment.

This book is very hard to find, unfortunately. I think I might still have a copy, but I have no idea where it is or if it got purged in one of my house moves. It did help me realize that perhaps the most outrageous psychic phenomena may have nothing to do with spirits at all. I don't think this experiment negates the possibility of entities, but it does illustrate another aspect of all this. And although the book is true to its subtitle and mainly sees this as an adventure in science, it's also something of a cautionary tale to those reading between the lines: we need to be careful about our assumptions and what we label phenomena.

[Little]

Minsma wrote: "This discussion reminded me just this morning of a book I read some years ago, in that it almost seems like the flip side of The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts. The book I'm thinking of is Conjuring P..."

Ouija discussed Philip, and the The Trickster and the Paranormal (as you know) talks about the inherent problems when trying to measure, or investigate psi, including the fact that it is not possible to overlook the researchers own psi abilities (whether recognised or not) and their effect on the results.

Ouija also outlines the possible problems with automative writing too. Most of the time it is the writer's own subconscious given free form. But like you say Minsma, the danger is believing it is someone, or something else, and therefore believing in it, and possibly acting on it. Just because your subconscious believes the world will end is no reason to quit your job, head for the hills and start preparing for it. Same goes with the Ouija board, and pendulum dowsing with the Ouija alphabet thingy.

But of course, sometimes it is not the writer's subconscious thoughts, but the genuine thing...


That gets me back to whether Pretas, or lost souls are capable of the manipulation shown by the entities in The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts.

From Book II The Sidpa Bardo of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, some interesting notes from The Bardo Body: Its birth and its supernormal faculties:

The after death or desire-body is endowed with
--all sense-faculties
--the power of unimpeded motion
--the power of miraculous action
--limited karmic power of prescience

"On the Bardo plane--unlike the human world--every being possesses, in virtue of freedom from the impending gross physical body, a certain degree of the power (of prescience), as the text makes clear."

There is much mentioning of the importance of not getting carried away by these new temporary 'powers', as they divert you from liberation, or if unavoidable, a mindful rebirth.

"Owing to having arrived at the false concept of the Intermediate State is a desirable or fixable state of existence, all dwellers therein, -sprites, pretas, demons, and deceased human entities, -becoming thereby habituated to the Bardo, their normal evolution is retarded. "

So any spirit on the Bardo has some prescient ability, just as the entities did in The Siren Call.

But a lost soul or a Preta, aren't they stuck in a pattern and state, due to addictive compulsions of their previous life? Aren't they fixated on that, rather than playing mind games and encouraging people to mess up their own relationships and lives?

While I can well imagine a lost soul would seek out someone to both recognise them, and grant them liberation by hearing and understanding their tale of whatever holds them bound to the bardo, I can see no reason why they would choose to mess around with mediums and humans seeking guidance from beyond. It doesn't make sense to me.

The entities in The Siren Call were extremely smart and extremely manipulative. Tibetan Book of the Dead wise, I think they acted more like Rakshasas or Asuras than Pretas.

Food for thought: http://ideomagi.tripod.com/library/tb...

(Excuse spelling mistakes. Post is too long and I'm too tired to check.)

[PJ Who Once Was Peejay]

Little wrote: "Ouija discussed Philip, and the The Trickster and the Paranormal (as you know)"

Yes, but I'd completely forgotten TTATP discussed Philip!

Little wrote: "The entities in The Siren Call were extremely smart and extremely manipulative. Tibetan Book of the Dead wise, I think they acted more like Rakshasas or Asuras than Pretas."

This is my conclusion. I don't think these kinds of tricksters are human spirits or were ever human. They're a separate creation, I think. What they truly are, where they come from, what their intent may be is another grand mystery. And they seem to be completely amoral in human terms: neither all good nor all bad, not necessarily friends of humans, not necessarily enemies either. But they do like to play with us, for whatever they get from it.

[Little]

Minsma wrote: "Little wrote: "Ouija discussed Philip, and the The Trickster and the Paranormal (as you know)"

Yes, but I'd completely forgotten TTATP discussed Philip!

Little wrote: "The entities in The Siren C..."

Yes, and amoral play is the word for it. However most people have troubles coming to terms with the concept of an afterlife, let alone non human life. And those that do believe are so often biased in that they see non human spirits as always evil or malevolent, which I don't feel is the case either. (I think prior to all this I was an academic believer, quite happy to go along with the concept, but hesitant if pressed. :))

Two issues I see with the group involved in The Siren Call, they seemed to have believed that upon death a person is automatically a nicer person, endowed with post mort wisdom. Which is also not the case, at least according most religious or holy books including The Tibetan Book of the Dead. Secondly they do not, at anytime suspect that these entities may be something other than human. Joe Fisher's mother was closer to the truth than Joe I think, although her view was decidedly black and white.

Have to add I REALLY recommend The Tibetan Book of the Dead, it puts metaphysical concepts into context. Also really explains Fortean phenomena. I think if John Keel etc had read it it might have given them a few invaluable pointers and negated the need for a lot of running around searching for intangible answers.

[Little]

Aaron wrote: "That said, even Adwait advises that people who practice meditation should have a decent head on their shoulders, because if the Kundalini power rises, and the channels are blocked, it can drive a p..."

I just read about this. :0 One woman said she had two days of intense, continuous orgasm. She described it as ecstasy and hell. Then other symptoms kicked in. She was committed, released, never fully recovered.

You know my stance now is that I know nothing. I also think that it's imperative that a person studies and learns all that they can, before venturing into any new practices. At least that's my course of action from now on. :)

[Little]

Linking this thread here: Metaphysics and Fortean Phenomena https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also this book (which I am devouring at great speed): Legends of the Fire Spirits: Jinn and Genies from Arabia to Zanzibar by Robert W. Lebling

I think if you asked a Sufi who Joe Fisher's group were dealing with, they would give a quick emphatic reply. So too many Buddhists, and Hindus, and many an old Irish pagan too.

Right, I'm off to put out a festive offering now. :)