Questioning Society discussion
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Why do you believe the way you do?
Well weren't you trying to tell her that liberal opinion was wrong? Or did I misinterpret your statement?
Oh no, two of them. *gets popcorn*Some people just like to be weird.
You guys are so brutal, I love it.
Debate is war. If you come to be nice and respectful, we eat you alive. :D
Oh sorry, I just thought that the freedom to marry who I want, to have children when and with whomever I want, and to (hopefully soonish, it's becoming more popular among some politicians) smoke weed if I want were freedoms. Not to mention the freedom, at least I consider it freedom, to have affordable health care and at least some social security when I am old, which conservatives don't seem to care about. I want the freedom to not have religion shoved on me by the government, which I'll say conservatives are pretty good at doing. And I'd like my children to be free from that creation pseudo-science crap being taught to them in school. So yes, I'd say that the more liberal side is more conducive to personal freedoms. And I think it's hilarious that conservatives say they want small government, when they want to control more aspects of people's personal lives, like marriage and abortion and religion. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Davis wrote: "Well weren't you trying to tell her that liberal opinion was wrong? Or did I misinterpret your statement?"You got me right but despite what the news might tell you, there are more opinions to have than left or right
Emily wrote: " Oh sorry, I just thought that..."
The 'liberals' want to control just as much as the 'conservatives' Those of you that identify with either party or group are buying into political propaganda and are simply sheep. If you think the liberals will give you freedom, good for you. You live in a black and white world that is a lot more comfortable than the real one. Keep voting with your heart and let's meet again in 10 years and see the shit hole our society has become.
"The 'liberals' want to control just as much as the 'conservatives'It isn't liberal who are banning everything left and right that doesn't agree with their definition of good. As conservatives do, when they ban gay marriage.
It's liberals who want to repress the traditional Christian culture of the US. It's them who want to ban constitutional rights. It's them who bleed our funds dry with redundancy.Not that I'm defending conservatives, they are just as bad. Like I said, they both want to screw you. But, if you like getting screwed (which you obviously do) lay down and spread your legs. I'll look away and give you two some privacy.
"2225408 It's liberals who want to repress the traditional Christian culture of the US. It's them who want to ban constitutional rights. It's them who bleed our funds dry with redundancy. "Traditional Christian? This country was founded on purely secular principles, and was decidedly un-Christian. Almost all of the Founding Fathers were agnostics, deists, pantheists or atheists. Jefferson himself thought Christianity was a horrible idea.
Lauren, where's your proof that almost all of the founding fathers were like that? I'd like to see it.
It's a Christian culture whether they or we are Christians.Like Dr. Ledwith said, in more words, the culture is Christian/God/Spiritual oriented and we are conditioned by this whether we are Atheists or not.
"The 'liberals' want to control just as much as the 'conservatives' Those of you that identify with either party or group are buying into political propaganda and are simply sheep. If you think the liberals will give you freedom, good for you. You live in a black and white world that is a lot more comfortable than the real one. Keep voting with your heart and let's meet again in 10 years and see the shit hole our society has become."WE WERE NOT FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES. Our forefathers were Unitarian Universalists. George Washington himself stated "Our country was not founded on the principles of Christianity". Freedom of marriage is something conservatives want to take away. They want Americans to suffer from lack of healthcare. They are against welfare. Our society FLOURISHED under Clinton, A DEMOCRAT. We had 8 YEARS OF UNPRECEDENTED GROWTH. 8 Years under a conservative left our country in SHAMBLES.
OUR COUNTRY IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION AND SHOULD NOT BE GOVERNED AS SUCH.
"It's them who want to ban constitutional rights"And what rights would those be? The pursuit of happiness? That all men are created equal? Oh wait. That is the conservatives.
"Lauren, where's your proof that almost all of the founding fathers were like that? I'd like to see it."Jayda, everyone knows our forefathers were not Christian men. That is a pretty well known fact.
I'm really quite befuddled that you didn't know this. Seriously, EVERYONE knows they weren't questions. If you insist, I will go get some documents that prove it. But I mean, C'mon? You really didn't know that?
Oh my, someone is testy today, aren't they?We weren't FOUNDED on Christian principles. Christianity formed the fundamental principles the founding fathers found so dear. The immigrants (aka first settlers) were conditioned from Christian cultures and the founding fathers were just as conditioned.
Constitutional rights like...having weapons.
You 'liberals' keep talking about how you want to give everyone freedom, well where is my freedom to take a machine gun to the park if I want to?
BTW everyone ALSO knows that the founding fathers were mostly masons and the group has strong spiritual (pseudo-Christian) ties. They recognize a supreme deity.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/f...http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundin...
http://www.infidels.org/library/moder...
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221...
Our founding fathers were Enlightened my friend. Not Christian. They understood the world in a way in which no Christian ever could.
I've actually read documents by some of the founding fathers that adds to the idea that they WERE Christian, or at least very religious. I know that people say that they weren't, but I've never gotten to see solid proof to show me because no one could actually give it to me.
"They recognize a supreme deity."They were also plenty of Unitarian Universalist's who believe in the sanctity of all. Argument fail.
"
You 'liberals' keep talking about how you want to give everyone freedom, well where is my freedom to take a machine gun to the park if I want to?"
I feel perfectly fine with NO ONE having that 'right'. That is just disgusting.
"Christianity formed the fundamental principles the founding fathers found so dear."
nope.
Jayda wrote: "I've actually read documents by some of the founding fathers that adds to the idea that they WERE Christian, or at least very religious. I know that people say that they weren't, but I've never got..."Regardless of what you think, the fact is that they were not Christian men.
Your nope isn't an argument. I'm right and if you study religion and history you will know that.And if someone thinks gay marriage is disgusting is that automatically illegal too?
H wrote: "Your nope isn't an argument. I'm right and if you study religion and history you will know that.And if someone thinks gay marriage is disgusting is that automatically illegal too?
"
It's not illegal, it just makes them an ignorant bigot. I'm not going to argue the principles that our country was founded on because they are so obviously Enlightenment principles. God is mentioned sparingly, and Jesus, not at all. I have studied History and ALL twenty major world religions and it is very obvious that our country is not Christian, nor was it intended to be.
I find it funny that you belittle Jayda so much and yet you yourself are so naive. Was England not controlled by Christianity? So how then were they not continued? And how THEN would the conditioning be washed away over a simple boat ride.And you not letting me carry a machine gun makes you an ignorant bigot.
"I find it funny that you belittle Jayda so much and yet you yourself are so naive"Right. I guess I overestimated your intelligence.
"Was England not controlled by Christianity?"
And did we not break away from England?
"And how THEN would the conditioning be washed away over a simple boat ride."
Most our forefathers weren't even religious men when they lived in England, if they did at all (some were born in the colonies). Obviously a majority of those who lived in America were Christian, but our forefathers were INTELLIGENT and therefore were able to break away from the religious cycle or ignorance.
"And you not letting me carry a machine gun makes you an ignorant bigot."
If that is the only thing someone can call me a bigot about, so be it. I find it rather embarrassing that we still have people who protest Gay marriage.
..........Okay talking to you is like talking to an epileptic dog with down syndrome.I wont educate you on social conditioning, it would be a life's work. So believe you are right and enjoy life.
Davis wrote: "If that is the only thing someone can call me a bigot about, so be it. "
It also makes you hypocritical.
Hmmm. I love when I argue people and they just resort to name calling and focusing on how I debate. Hope you enjoy your blind little mediocre life.
I would also like to state that none of your opinions or facts have been close to the truth, yet.
I result to name calling when I state a fact and the other person closes their eyes and screams "NO, I DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF IT" when it's obvious.Anyone with sense can understand social conditioning...
You haven't stated anything that is true though. It is well known fact that our country was not founded on 'Christian' principles and that a majority of our forefathers were not Christians. They were Deists, Masons, and UU'S. I'm sorry if I'm shattering your preconceived worldview, but I am correct. Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, Adams, all of these men were not Christians in the traditional sense. They all hold a reverence for the teachings of Jesus, like I do, but they were not Christians and did not legislate as such.
Of for the love of Satan...Let me spell it out slowly.
I am not saying the founding fathers were Christian.
I am saying they were born and raised and CONDITIONED in a Christian culture and THUS their values are based on these pricipals.
Well, certain principles are a given due to their societal implications (Murder against the law, lying is bad, both because they harm societal progress). I don't argue that. But look at today's Christians: they are just as backward as ever, fighting against gay marriage, etc. Our forefathers were much more forward thinking than this. Some of the constitution was based off of Christian morality, because it is universal, and is represented in other religions as well. Christianity itself has nothing to do with it
We're not talking about today's Christians...Changing the subject doesn't mean you're right.
I didn't change the subject, I was just showing you an example. There is overlap in the morality of religions because some things that are considered 'moral' are needed for the progress of humanity. A society that allows murder couldn't flourish, a society that allows lying couldn't communicate, etc. Some things just ARE moral because they have to be and those are the sorts of things that are interpenetrated as "Christian morals" from our forefathers. It just isn't true.
Davis wrote: ""Oh, you are so darling. Yes, the liberal party wants to give you SO much freedom.May I stay at your house next time I visit Mars?"
Awww, how cute. Another self-righteous conservative "
Not quite. H is a self-righteous conspiracy theorist unicorn. H has pictures that were obviously not created in any sort of graphical manipulation program to prove it. H can also prove that H is a unicorn by means of pure logic if you will only allow her the free choice of her premises.
As for liberal, conservative, stuff like that -- it is difficult to tell. Unless I mistake my eyes, H was proposing gay transsexual love (if that isn't too oxymoronic) on another thread only a few minutes ago. Social conservatives usually draw a line in there somewhere, I dunno where, maybe gay girl-on-girl is ok, maybe girl-and-boy is OK, but girl on ex-girl?
Given this, I would interpret his -- her? Its? desire to visit Mars as either a complex form of magical thinking, firm in the certain knowledge that every unicorn that has ever existed has been perfectly happy on Mars, or possibly it was an oblique remark intended to indicate a form of sad, cynical agreement with Emily's remarks while at the same time mocking the two of them together for being so naive and yet correct.
Or maybe both...;-)
Anyway, H, if you and Jayda ever do get together for some sort of, um, congress, please document it suitably and share, for all us voyeurs out here...;-)
rgb
Davis wrote: "I didn't change the subject, I was just showing you an example. There is overlap in the morality of religions because some things that are considered 'moral' are needed for the progress of humanity. A society that allows murder couldn't flourish, a society that allows lying couldn't communicate, etc. Some things just ARE moral because they have to be and those are the sorts of things that are interpenetrated as "Christian morals" from our forefathers. It just isn't true. "You're boring me now.
Let me resort to your argument style...*ahem*
U R WRONG
NOPE
NOT TRUE.
rgb wrote: "Not quite. H is a self-righteous conspiracy theorist unicorn. H has pictures that were obviously not created in any sort of graphical manipulation program to prove it. H can also prove that H is a unicorn by means of pure logic if you will only allow her the free choice of her premises."
You can write my biography...Hell, you can write my AUTOBIAGRAPHY.
rgb wrote: "Unless I mistake my eyes, H was proposing gay transsexual love (if that isn't too oxymoronic) on another thread only a few minutes ago. Social conservatives usually draw a line in there somewhere, I dunno where, maybe gay girl-on-girl is ok, maybe girl-and-boy is OK, but girl on ex-girl?"
I love love. All love. LOT'S of love.
rgb wrote: "Anyway, H, if you and Jayda ever do get together for some sort of, um, congress, please document it suitably and share, for all us voyeurs out here...;-)"
Done. $9.95 though.
"We weren't FOUNDED on Christian principles. Christianity formed the fundamental principles the founding fathers found so dear. The immigrants (aka first settlers) were conditioned from Christian cultures and the founding fathers were just as conditioned. "John Locke actually influence the Founders, and he was decidedly not uber-religious. And if you want to take a machine gun to a park, you put others in danger.
"I am saying they were born and raised and CONDITIONED in a Christian culture and THUS their values are based on these pricipals. "
Not really, as only 4 commandments are even somewhat laws here.
SOCIAL CONDITIONINGSOCIAL CONDITIONING
SOCIAL CONDITIONING
That's the last I'll say on this because I'm better off talking to a wall.
"Not really, as only 4 commandments are even somewhat laws here. "
That's conceeding to my point...
"And if you want to take a machine gun to a park, you put others in danger. "
Not if it isn't loaded, but I still can't (legally)
Any exposure with peanuts can kill people, so are you going to ban nuts too?
"That's conceeding to my point... "No, it's not, because the only commandments that are made into laws were the ones that existed BEFORE AND SEPARATE from Christianity.
"Not if it isn't loaded, but I still can't (legally) "
Guns are made to harm. Would you feel safe with a ticking bomb in the same room, even if it might not go off?
By harming and killing. If people didn't have so many guns, then no one would NEED the guns to protect themselves. It's like an arms race. If the criminals had no guns, no one else would need them.
Lauren wrote: "No, it's not, because the only commandments that are made into laws were the ones that existed BEFORE AND SEPARATE from Christianity. "Before Christianity? Before Islam? Before Judaism? Before Paganism? Christianity has ties in all these (because it came from these, or in conjuncture with) so how can these 'laws' come before what Christianity IS?
Lauren wrote: "Guns are made to harm. Would you feel safe with a ticking bomb in the same room, even if it might not go off?"
I would feel exhilarated my love, exhilarated.
You ignored my question by the way.
But criminals will always have guns, Lauren, because of illegal trade. So getting rid of the ability to buy guns will only make crime rate sky-rocket. Look at England for an example.
"Before Christianity? Before Islam? Before Judaism? Before Paganism? Christianity has ties in all these (because it came from these, or in conjuncture with) so how can these 'laws' come before what Christianity IS? "Christianity and Paganism are two totally different things. Everything about Paganism was considered bad to Christianity, even if Christianity stole basically everything from the Pagans.
"I would feel exhilarated my love, exhilarated. "
Most would be terrified. Irrational people truly are the most fun to argue with. :D
"Any exposure with peanuts can kill people, so are you going to ban nuts too? "
They already do. In classrooms, they have nut-free zones so the kindergartners don't die.
Lauren wrote: "Christianity and Paganism are two totally different things. Everything about Paganism was considered bad to Christianity, even if Christianity stole basically everything from the Pagans. "Ah, you are adorable...
Christianity is so intertwined with paganism it's just another form of it. And they aren't distinct opposites because there IS such a thing as ChristoPagans.
Lauren wrote: "Most would be terrified. Irrational people truly are the most fun to argue with. :D"
I'm irrational because I'm not a pussy?
Lauren wrote: "They already do. In classrooms, they have nut-free zones so the kindergartners don't die. "
They aren't banned from public. You don't need to register your peanuts. You aren't put on a waiting list for peanuts.
Okay, how about this...we make guns legal, but only guns that fire peanuts.
"Christianity is so intertwined with paganism it's just another form of it. And they aren't distinct opposites because there IS such a thing as ChristoPagans. "So, how do monotheism and polytheism combine, exactly?
"I'm irrational because I'm not a pussy? "
A healthy fear for your life is how people survive.
The first to die are the ones with no fear of death.
"They aren't banned from public. You don't need to register your peanuts. You aren't put on a waiting list for peanuts. "
Were peanuts built by humans to hurt people? If guns grew on trees, you might be onto something.
Lauren wrote: "So, how do monotheism and polytheism combine, exactly? "
Since when is Christianity a monotheism? Look at Catholisism.
Lauren wrote: "A healthy fear for your life is how people survive.
The first to die are the ones with no fear of death. "
I would say it is irrational to fear the bomb you knew wouldn't go off. I'd say natrual selection you select me over someone who would piss their pants at the meer thought of a bomb.
Lauren wrote: "Were peanuts built by humans to hurt people? If guns grew on trees, you might be onto something. "
What if I specifically grew peanuts to kill people? Will you ban them then?
"Since when is Christianity a monotheism? Look at Catholisism. "It depends on which part of the Bible you choose to believe. But most Catholics I know regard themselves as monotheistic.
"
I would say it is irrational to fear the bomb you knew wouldn't go off."
Did you read what I wrote? I said MIGHT or MIGHT NOT go off. 50/50.
"What if I specifically grew peanuts to kill people? Will you ban them then? "
If you start some sort of biochemical peanut war, then yes. :)
Questioning Society
Books mentioned in this topic
Frozen Charlotte (other topics)Say Her Name (other topics)
Cujo (other topics)
Robert Bloch's Psycho: Sanitarium (other topics)
Duma Key (other topics)
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I am self-righteous though.