RW: Observations and a Question (Possible Spoilers)

[Noomninam]

I am almost finished with this book, and want to throw out a couple of observations and a question — I hope without being too spoiler-ish. But be warned of possible inadvertent reveals . . .

What I’ve found is colorful, multi-species characters combined with lavish, splashy concepts. What’s missing, at least for me, is a driving force, or any sense of events rushing toward a climactic revelation. Or, at many points, even any really clear idea of what’s motivating anybody.

Oddly enough, this reminds me of certain recent mega-budget sci-fi/action movies that seem to be all about the CGI and the 3D opportunities, with storytelling running a distant second. (view spoiler)[ The Ringworld itself, and its derivation from the then-hot Dyson Sphere concept; the carefully developed concept of breeding for luck; the multi-world terraforming expedition of the Engineers — great and influential ideas, that Larry Niven seems to expect to stand up pretty much on their own awesomeness! (hide spoiler)]

Then again, I’m also reminded of the cultural churn back when this book appeared. In 1970, the notorious ‘60s were not quite over yet. Self-styled gurus were pushing concepts like “It’s the journey, not the destination.” And anyone who’s seen Antonioni’s work, or other arty films from the period, already knows that plot, and even characterization, were not prime criteria for artists of the time.

So, my question is probably for anyone who’s read other works by Niven. Does his fictional m.o. show that he was in tune with the zeitgeist of his times? Or was he a Big Idea man, who happened to be fairly inept at the actual weaving of tales? (Third possibility: It just isn’t working for me, and for others is actually a riveting nail-biter!) Thanks in advance for your insights.

[Phil]

Niven is The Big Idea man. He comes up with some incredible settings and explains why they could be possible. The Integral Trees and The Magic Goes Away are other examples. He's never been known as a great prose writer. I think that's why for the last 30 years or so most of his books have at least one co-writer.

[Alan]

Ringworld is in the vein of Rendezvous with Rama or Mission of Gravity where the exploration of the world/object/Maguffin IS the main driving force of the story. The colorful characters/aliens aren't even unique to Ringworld, he'd largely introduced them in earlier stories.

Some other Niven books definitely have a real narrative drive, like The Mote in God's Eye or Protector but to me he had a similar problem with another of his big concept location books - The Integral Trees.

But, to be fair to the book, there is something in the concept of a ringworld and how he realized it that really captures the imagination.

[Serendi]

I find I prefer Niven's short fiction. His stuff is mostly driven by cool SFnal ideas, and one main one per story is about right. Plot is often "Main Protag races against time to figure out how to understand/work around Story Idea, and saves the day!" Characterization? Not so much.

I suspect I'll be going back to a bunch of the anthologies for a revisit after rereading Ringworld. If you like the Nifty Idea kind of fiction, he mostly does it very well.

[Phil]

I like his short fiction quite a bit. All the Myriad Ways and Convergent Series are two of my favorite collections.

[Rick]

Serendi and others capture Niven, esp Ringworld. This particular book is also in a genre where the book is driven by the Big Dumb Object (BDO). It also seems to be a hallmark of BDO fiction that the BDO is inscrutable - after all, this book would be MUCH different if our little expedition had discovered it in its prime. Instead, we have a BDO that was made by someone far in advance of us but that holds a mystery because its makers are gone/won't talk to us/whatever.

To me, a key to whether you enjoy Ringworld and its fictional cousins is how easily you can imagine the world that the author is describing and the journey of the characters. If you find it hard to get a clear picture of what the characters are seeing you also miss the sense of being in/on the BDO and that sense of immersion is, I think, key to these books. They basically take you out to some amazing object and let you explore by proxy. Plot and characterization are often secondary.

For awhile, these stories were very en vogue, probably as a result from America's rapid ascendance as a scientific and industrial power combined with the notion of Progress. Remember, too, that 1970 was only 25 years since the end of WW2 - the progress since then had been remarkable in many ways and the techno-optimism drive books like Ringworld.

[Dracul]

and in the end there will be a revalation, but in my opinion it wasn't a very climactic one. I liked the story anyway.

[Thomas]

If the Ringworld is a Big Dumb Object then so is Middle Earth.

It is a fantastic setting that in and of itself bespeaks adventure.

It is the main character of the book, and as the reader learns more about it, it grows. Taking us on the journey are a cast of characters that grow, change, and encounter adversity throughout.

Did I cry and wallow in an emotionally rigorous journey that made my heart grow three sizes larger? No, but my mind grew three sizes larger that day.

[Rick]

interesting point re MiddleEarth. My point wasn't to denigrate the scale of the Ringworld but to point out that it falls into the 'big artificially created, amazing engineering' category.

[Joe Informatico]

Alan wrote: "Ringworld is in the vein of Rendezvous with Rama or Mission of Gravity where the exploration of the world/object/Maguffin IS the main driving force of the story."

I happened to read Rendezvous with Rama right before starting Ringworld. I've never really read Clarke or Niven before. But given the similar premise (protagonists discover and explore an alien megastructure far beyond their own building capabilities) I can't help but compare them in my mind. And while I'm only halfway through Ringworld, right now Clarke is winning.

Niven's characters are colourful aliens and future humans while Clarke's can mostly be boiled down to name, job title, single personality quirk, and exceptionally competent in their field. But the motivations in Rama are very straightforward and clear to me. I like the four leads in Ringworld, but they don't seem to have a lot of passion about their mission. They pull out the science as readily as Clarke's explorers, but don't seem to have as much of a sense of wonder.

I don't know if Clarke was better at succinctly instilling the sense of awe. And it's probably not fair to compare Clarke at the height of his powers to one of Niven's earlier works, especially when I'm not even finished Ringworld yet. But that's my feeling right now.

[Rick]

BTW for a treatment of a BDO where the rulers are still present, check out Titan by John Varley wherein a spaceship is drawn into a large object, crashes and, well, the ruler of the BDO is very much still around.

[Chris]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one who saw the storytelling in this book as mediocre. This is the second time I've read this book, and the only stuff I've read by Niven. And I remember being like "This was it?" when I finished the first time. That's not to say I didn't like it (I mean I am reading for a second time after all), but after everything I had heard about Larry Niven I guess I wasn't as impressed as I had hoped I would be.

[Trike]

The sequel, The Ringworld Engineers, has higher stakes and a much more defined plot as a result.

[Ric]

Ringworld caught me at the right time in life when thoughts about a career and options were percolating, and this book had all these gosh-wow conceptualized technologies and mind-expanding extrapolations. Eventually I read all of the Ringworld books as well as the prequels and associated short stories.

Niven's story-telling style is like a child with ADHD, jumping about from thought to thought, sometimes only sparing a word or sentence then moving on to another train of thought. Sometimes it works, and sometimes he loses the reader. But he is seldom short of concept and idea.

[Joshua]

It seems the characters are just being dragged along by chance events, they don't really have a great deal of agency.(view spoiler)[Which makes a lot of sense considering Teela's 'superpower'. (hide spoiler)] I felt compelled to keep reading to find out more about the ringworld, but from the sound of it that mystery isn't enough for everyone.
The sequel is much more plot driven, the characters have to race against time to save the ringworld crashing into the sun.(Not a spoiler, it says it on the blurb)

[Katie]

Phil wrote: "Niven is The Big Idea man. He comes up with some incredible settings and explains why they could be possible. The Integral Trees and The Magic Goes Away are other examples. He's never been known as..."

I guess now I think of it the only other Niven I've read (and really enjoyed) had coauthors. Fallen Angels and Dream Park were great fun. Nothing wrong with a little collaboration if you can do it well. I think I heard someone claim once that it was obvious which parts were which author in one of those but I was too engrossed to notice.

[Ric]

Elizabeth wrote: "It's not a story so much as a fly-through of some cool objects that Niven's thought up..."
That's really what this trip is about. Niven's imagination is full of gosh-wow objects.