Twilight
discussion
Why did none of the vampires try to make a difference to the world or do something more useful?
I like to think it's because they're narcissistic asses who rather cheat humans out of their money so their cold dead bodies can sit on it longer than actually make a difference. There's a picture meme thing about the Cullens that I love but don't feel like going out and looking for. It said something along the lines of, "Could spend time researching/curing cancer. Goes to school for eternity instead."
I had a problem with this, too. Carlisle is already a doctor working to save lives. How hard would it be to step into a lab? The argument that it would threaten the food supply is a bit moot for the Cullens, anyway. They don't eat humans as it is, so there is no threat.
I felt like this perpetual need to attend high school over and over was a sign of immaturity. Plus a thinly veiled plot device so Edward would be somewhere that he and Bella could meet.
If she's truly as clumsy as she repeatedly says (but doesn't really show), why couldn't she have met Edward at the hospital, like she did Carlisle?
There's just too many inconsistencies with this family to list. The fact is, SM had a really great idea but fell down a bit on execution--at least to my mind.
Just my opinion.
I wasn't too fuss about them changing the world, but I was annoyed they didn't do anything with their lives, basically living as bums, going through school over and over again. Only Carlisle did more with his life.
I think that you are missing the point. It was a romance. Not a book about doing good in the world. The point of most movies and books is to offer up entertainment and escape from the reality of our overwhelming, boring, difficult, troubled, or just ordinary lives. Some things just should not be over analyzed but just appreciated for what they are. After all it is fiction. A book like this is not meant to mirror real life but to take you out of it. Benevolent vampires going around the world reaping goodness and happiness actually sounds a little lame when that is the purpose of the book. Maybe a children's book?
Well, I was under the impression that the Cullens felt that they were unnatural aberrations that should never have existed in the first place. I think that they would believe they shouldn't interfere with the natural course of human history. I mean, who's to say that Carlisle didn't toy with the notion of taking Hitler out, but decided not to because of all the various reasons brought up by hypothetical time travelers?
I just saw them more as anthropologists trying to study or live among an uncontacted people- be as unobtrusive as possible and don't give them radical culture-changing information.
Most human characters in books are not devoted to making the world a better place. The few that I can think of are often depicted as naïve. I think this reflects society in general. Not many of us are dedicated to medical research or finding out solutions to environmental problems. I'm not sure, if expectations for human characters are not at this level, how it's reasonable to expect a heightened sense of altruism from vampires. I don't think there's anything about vampires that would make them as a group particularly brilliant in scientific research.
What is extraordinary about the Cullen clan is their decision to abstain from human blood. I think it would be pretty difficult to go through life choosing to never be fully satiated. That's a level of dedication that is highly commendable. There's discussion in the books about how difficult such a decision is and how hard it is to follow.
Okay Kirby, what if their contribution to society is that they choose not to eat them. They chose to attempt to live normal lives, blend in as best they can, and not to inflict harm on innocent people. As teenagers,they would be expected by society to go to school and be just that, teenagers. They are not to make a spectacle of themselves or to draw attention according to their vampire laws. They aren't necessarily non contributors but perhaps silent contributors because the purpose of doing good is not so you get pats on the back but to contribute regardless.
Edward was well read, enjoyed music and was very loyal to his family. He spent his life coming to terms with the fact that he had harmed people in the past.He was concerned with morality. He did things to protect Bella and Charlie from harm.Jasper and Alice seemed to really love nature and Alice was very focused on helping Jasper with his transition from human resources to animal resources. Of course Dr. Cullen is the most obvious.
Then if you look as Esme, she is a mother. She spends her time caring for her family and husband. That is a real contribution. Rose if she is a giver it is to Emmet. She has never trusted anyone so staying in her bubble until there was something she truly cared about like the baby. She spent her whole life resenting humans for what she could never have. You don't see a compassionate side to her until the very end. We don't get a lot of information about Emmit but he is loyal to his family. He is the character that loves Rose regardless of her resentment towards the human population. Emmit loves Rose despite her flaws. He is a giving loving soul. Is that not enough? I mean when you are a super being, maybe you have greater issues than recycling.
For one they make very little waste, no eating...no trash. They live in a modern home that is probably equipped with the most modern appliances that are the most efficient use of energy. They run as much as they drive, conservation of fuel. They spread far and wide to hunt so they do not deplete food sources in one area.
If Stephanie Meyers had written a book where the vampires spent all there time turning off lights and talking about saving gas, it would have detracted from the romantic quality of the characters. If you are writing a romance of this manor, you don't want to point out the zit on the but of the man as he is making love to his one true love for the first time. It sort of ruins the moment. That is what I mean when I say you should respect and accept the story in the manor it was meant.
I did not mean to imply you turn your brain off or that this book lacks intellectual value. However over intellectualism of the story detracts from the romance. The atmosphere and the mood of the book are such that when you read it you should be so absorbed in those characters, so invested in the romance that those things would bring you out of the mood. She could have written that Esme made dinner with only organic Chicken and home grown vegetables but the scene was about the human entering into the vampire world.Pointing out the nuances of the personality conflicts and the risks involved on both parties, of trust. If you were paying attention to that as closely as she wanted you to, then you would have forgotten all about the chicken and vegetables anyway.
If you are looking for a book that provides those types of things in an obvious manor, then there are plenty of other books to read. No children's books are not the only books that should provide good character references, however as adults we see people with all of their complexities and no one human or vampire is ever all good or all bad.
People are drawn to flawed characters because they relate to their struggles on an elemental level. Therefore, we, typically as adults should not need everything spelled out in detail but are able to infer as we read. Children however do require everything spelled out, therefore it might make an excellent children's book idea.
Benevolent Vampires could be an example for children to accept all races and not to judge.
The joy of books is that we as intelligent people can fill in the blanks and read between the lines. We are able to inject a bit of our own imagination to make a book our own. The best fiction authors leave a little room for you to flex your own brain as well as enjoy their work.
Who cares? It's a love story.
Huntley wrote: "Who cares? It's a love story."Ya know, it could still be a love story without them having to repeat high school for the 50th time during their life time as vampires.
Karyn wrote: "Okay Kirby, what if their contribution to society is that they choose not to eat them. They chose to attempt to live normal lives, blend in as best they can, and not to inflict harm on innocent pe..."I think maybe most of this reply was meant for ST?
And, I agree that they did have personalities and hobbies. If I recall correctly, Esme was interested in architecture and design, Carlisle in medicine and history, Rosalie in mechanics, Emmet in hunting and hiking, Alice in fashion and stock trading, Jasper in military history and strategy, and Edward in piano, composition, and reading. And, of course- the baseball.
Edward had two medical degrees, I imagine he and Carlisle probably spent plenty of time doing research. In fact, they didn't just repeat high school over and over again; they went to college plenty of times, and then they occasionally spent a few years in seclusion and some times separated. Age really would be a factor because most of them were changed when they were teens, meaning they still look like teenagers. Just because they can make a birth certificate say they are old enough to do whatever they want to, doesn't mean it would be believable. The most important rule of their existence was to make sure they never made humans suspicious, and Edward working as a college graduate in some research lab wouldn't work for very long at all.And Kirby, you are exactly right about their interests, you just missed Edward's interest in science and Rosalie's love for music (she plays piano and the harp). Also, I believe Rosalie might have had a medical degree as well.
I think their "lack" of doing anything significant to help the world is their need/desire to stay hidden. Major contributions to mankind also bring a lot of attention and media (even in earlier decades when the media was only newspapers), which the Cullens and the other vampires had to avoid. I don't think the Volturi would be very happy if Edward Cullen's face was all over TV for finding the cure to cancer or Alice's face for saving an entire community from a tsunami because she had a "vision" of destruction. Really, Carlisle being a doctor was pushing the limits of bringing attention to the family of vampires by treating most everyone in the community at one point or the other.
If they have such a strong desire to stay hidden, why not just move to some remote location in the middle of a forest?
Karyn wrote: "Okay Kirby, what if their contribution to society is that they choose not to eat them. They chose to attempt to live normal lives, blend in as best they can, and not to inflict harm on innocent pe..."XD This post just made my day. It is funny in so many ways!!! One can contribute to society by not eating them; love should not be about character, just about passion; talking about recycling is just as unattractive as talking about a butt-zit; when you are a super-being you have more important concerns than recycling; turning off lights and saving gas detracts from people's romantic quality; benevolent vampires could help children accept all races?!? How did I never realize all these great truths of life before now??? Bahahahaha! Probably the best GoodReads post I've ever read.
Kasabuta wrote: "If they have such a strong desire to stay hidden, why not just move to some remote location in the middle of a forest?"Probably because it would be a pretty boring existence if they lived completely alone with no interactions with others.
Amy wrote: "Kasabuta wrote: "If they have such a strong desire to stay hidden, why not just move to some remote location in the middle of a forest?"Probably because it would be a pretty boring existence if t..."
That's just to stay hidden, bro. They could always walk around whatever city and do whatever they please? It's like you guys have no imagination. :[
Bella could get lost in the woods and BAM, Edward happens to meet here. And behold, a Twilight without the high school setting.
ST wrote: "I just figured that they having lived through massive changes and decreasing air and water quality (which they would smell severely) they would want to change ..."Why should decreasing water quality be of any concern to a vampire?
They can't even cross the darn stuff if it's running. :)
Decreasing air quality - if you grew up during the industrial revolution, you'd likely have a much different idea of air pollution, besides, again, what should it matter to a vampire?
It's not as if they need to breath...
ST wrote: "Aside from Carlisle (sp?) who was a successful doctor, none of the rest of them tried to help the world in any way. The excuse of 'I look too young' isn't good enough because they can make their bi..."Who in their right mind would go through high school over and over again?! o.O
Celticgirl wrote: "Who in their right mind would go through high school over and over again?! o.O "Ah c'mon.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times... who wouldn't want to have that again... and again... and again... okay, I think I begin to feel your point.
They must all be crazy... What's the point of taking high school over and over again?
So they could blend.... It is that simple. I am not saying that it isn't a flaw in the books but it isn't the emphasis.They are a love story with a supernatural edge . That is all.
Claire wrote: "So they could blend.... It is that simple. I am not saying that it isn't a flaw in the books but it isn't the emphasis.They are a love story with a supernatural edge . That is all."
Like Libellule had said earlier, what's the point of them blending them if they don't actually interact with anyone besides Bella, whose only interest lies with Edward (at first).
Not like they drink human blood or protected the fair citizens of Forks from other rogue vampires like James and Victoria before. Why must they torture themselves by hiding in plain sight?
I don't know why they couldn't say there were home tutored if they were worried about people asking questions. Probably brought more attention to them by going to school. At least they can do something more fulfilling with their days if they lied about being taught at home, even if its not saving the world, anything is better than repeating highly school!!!
Maybe the real question is: "If you were a vampire staring at eternal life on earth, what would you do with your time?"
Didn't Alice tell the Government about sudden crashes in the stock market? Because I remember Edward saying something about that.
No he said that Alice did something like that. He said it in a joking way...hmmm.
first chapter of New Moon on page 13. "[Money] was just something that accumulated when you had unlimited time on your hands and a sister who had an uncanny ability to predict trends in the stock market."
See!
So... they can just set up their own lab and find the cure for cancer? Going to high school over and over again is seriously the worst thing I've heard of for a vampire.
Because that would be boring! Going shopping and driving fancy cars, high school drama, playing baseball, and running up trees, who has time to save the world? But I see what you mean, it would be nice.
Kasabuta wrote: "So... they can just set up their own lab and find the cure for cancer? Going to high school over and over again is seriously the worst thing I've heard of for a vampire."Even if one makes the rather outlandish assumption that the media would be satisfied with the news that an anonymous person has single-handedly cured cancer...what if the Cullens don't think they should alter the course of human history in such a drastic way?
Kirby wrote: "Kasabuta wrote: "So... they can just set up their own lab and find the cure for cancer? Going to high school over and over again is seriously the worst thing I've heard of for a vampire."Even if ..."
Beats having to relive high school/college years.
Kasabuta wrote: "Beats having to relive high school/college years."Sorry, I've gotten a little confused- what beats having to relive school years?
Also, I'm wondering exactly why we're considering high school and college years to be so unbearable...?
Kirby wrote: "Kasabuta wrote: "Beats having to relive high school/college years."Sorry, I've gotten a little confused- what beats having to relive school years?
Also, I'm wondering exactly why we're conside..."
Having to single-handedly discovered the cure for cancer or something actually benefical?
Why are you assuming that high school and college itself are unbearable? It's just the act itself of repeating it in an endless cycle is a huge waste of time so that they "stay undercover" as vampires.
Wait, I'm not saying that would be a bad thing in itself. I mean that it would likely lead to bad things. I'm saying that they have to keep their existence a secret. If they expose themselves to the world, I can only see a few outcomes: the Volturi wipe them out, the humans wipe them and all other vampires they can find out, or the humans find a way to cage and study them. I don't see how any of these scenarios would "beat" reliving high school and college.
But let's say that we DO expect them to be so altruistic as to sacrifice all of their lives for the benefit of cancer patients (though I don't know how many HUMANS would do that)...you still haven't even acknowledged my suggestion that they would understand that they SHOULDN'T so drastically alter human history.
And, I'm not assuming that. I'm only repeating what people seem to be saying: that redoing high school and college would be unbearable, that it's the last thing the Cullens should be doing. I'm asking WHY that seems to be the case.
My high school years weren't bad. The only reason that I wouldn't want to go back has more to do with not wanting to also revert back to not having certain freedoms that one has an adult. The Cullens don't seem to worry about typical teenaged things like curfews, though.They do HS over and over again because of their ages when they were turned. They were all relatively young. They like assimilating into human society and the younger that they pretend to be, the longer they can stay in any given place. As it is, not growing physically older is a huge limitation to being able to stay in any one place. I would say that only gives them 15-20 yrs max (...and that is an extremely generous estimate..) before they would be forced to move again.
Btw, they don't just do HS over and over again. They also go to college and get married and work as well. One of the books mentions all of the various interests that they all pursue.
I think we probably should also take the characters themselves into consideration. Was it in their nature to do something like that anyway? Carlisle was really the only one who had a genuinely altruistic nature. Alice comes in a close second, but it is tied very closely to her gift. Rosalie most certainly doesn't have it all.
Kirby wrote: "Also, I’m wondering exactly why we’re considering high school and college years to be so unbearable...? "
College years won’t be so bad, there’s potential to learn new things and there are so many courses out there and different things you can learn.
School, however, is very limited in subjects, and having to repeat the same thing over and over again just isn’t challenging and very boring. Plus, being more mature you probably find it more difficult to interact with the other more child-like students.
Okay, they don’t have to re-learn anything and won’t have the pressure or worry of passing exams because they’ve been there, done that, already know all they need to know to pass. They should be able to sail through it, if they graduated several times.
But just the complete boredom of having to re-sit lessons you already know and then having nothing in common with the rest of the students. Better way to spend your time.
I'm not buying the argument that the Volturi would do anything if Carlisle (or any of them) was in the public eye for any reason. They threatened bad things for thousands of pages only to show up and say "my bad" growl hiss. Besides, they are the ones that eat entire tour groups with no consequence. A little riskier than taking an award for scientific achievement, in my opinion.
Carlisle could cure cancer, take an award, then fake his death and move on. It's not that complicated.
The fact is, they want to stay in one area as long as possible so they do these things to do that. That also includes no awards or anything that places them in the national public eye. It's just survival.
ST wrote: "why wouldn't they do something more useful with their time than repeat high school over and over again?Well, for Edward the answer's probably contained in:
It would be ... hell"
Rememeber, he thought himself damned.
Suicide is not really an option for Christians, not even for Mormon vampires. When God lashes out at you, you have to stand down and take it.
I think he believed that he may go to hell after his eventual death, not that his possible eternal life was already the punishment. I recall there being an exchange with Bella about him not wanting to risk more harm to his "soul" - which I think necessitates a believe in an after life. But it may just as well be that he meant he might end up among those left behind in the rapture.
ST wrote: "Karyn wrote: "I think that you are missing the point. It was a romance. Not a book about doing good in the world. The point of most movies and books is to offer up entertainment and escape from the..."Edward was also multilingual and had an appreciation for the arts. We know this because Bella observed it, there is no telling what other passions the other vampires had that Bella did not know about or that did not fit into the story.
And seriously people...are we really having this conversation? Really?
Joyce wrote: "first chapter of New Moon on page 13. "[Money] was just something that accumulated when you had unlimited time on your hands and a sister who had an uncanny ability to predict trends in the stoc..."
That's not Alice telling the government...
Karyn wrote: "Okay Kirby, what if their contribution to society is that they choose not to eat them. They chose to attempt to live normal lives, blend in as best they can, and not to inflict harm on innocent pe..."Thank you, thank you, thank you. And very nicely said, might I add.
I guess if you think about it, we already have some humans who don't do anything beneficial with the short lives they have. Time isn't the problem, it's more or less is about having the will to do something productive and beneficial for our and other's future.Well...to be honest I like what Karyn wrote as well. Their contribution is most likely to disregard the thought to eat humans. I say that's fair, eh. LOL
I would think that you would hold "why havent they cured cancer" to humans as well. I don't know many 90+ year olds who work on curing cancer. Why would you assume a vampire would? And who is to say any of our advancements in medicine did not come from "vampires". Are you doing to do any of those things you have suggested they do with your life that you have? I'm certain that high school or any school 100 years ago taught much different things then they are teaching now. As science advances, so does our knowledge of it. It wasn't too long ago, we told our children to huddle under your desk for safety of a nuclear attack. I would say the only rational reason to go to school over and over again being a vampire is not only to blend in, but also to not be out dated on simple interaction with humans. From speaking english to just being up on the treads.
Now all of these answers are reaching. I understand that. But you can rationalize almost anything with enough creativity.
I suppose the simple answer is that vampires can be motivated (or not) just as their mortal counterparts are(or are not) motivated to do something. Some will do great things, others will not.
libellule wrote: "Heidi wrote: "I would think that you would hold "why havent they cured cancer" to humans as well. I don't know many 90+ year olds who work on curing cancer. Why would you assume a vampire would? An..."I didn't get the impression that Twilight vampires actually had the maturity of adults, though. They were stuck in whatever developmental/emotional stage they were in when they turned. They only seemed more mature than today's teens because of the time periods that they were from. For example, in Edward's day, boys were going off to war and people got married and had kids at 17 and 18. In Jasper's time, they were even younger.
Jeni wrote: "I'm not buying the argument that the Volturi would do anything if Carlisle (or any of them) was in the public eye for any reason. They threatened bad things for thousands of pages only to show up ..."In my opinion "Twilight" is no Dracula which has multi-layered meanings. This juvenile book is what it is. It wasn't meant to be historical or have any other meaning accept the love story. Smart people though recognize what it lacks and this is why all the questions about it are being posted.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Twilight (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Circle trilogy (other topics)Twilight (other topics)
Though yeah, maybe publishing scientific papers anonymously could work. But that would probably get some humans asking questions and poking around. And that is probably not enough for humans to actually find out anything of importance, but hey, why risk it?
They mostly just tried to make decisions based on the good of their coven. For the Cullens, high school so that they could stay within human communities longer.
I've also read a story (twilight fanfiction, I forgot the title, does anyone know this?) that had the Volturi as some sort of guardians of knowledge, because humans somehow found a way to kill vampires effectively and the Volturi needed to get their hands on the research and destroy anyone involved for the good of the vampire race.
This I think demonstrates what human scientific advancement could do.
I think the vampires would only step in if the human race (their primary food supply) is threatened with extinction. Or any situation where their race or way of life is threatened. Or if there is any vampire who feels a great calling for the good of humanity.