The Sword and Laser discussion
For your OSC problem
Jo wrote: "Rick, it seems to me that you're judging people who are going to see the movie. You're certainly free to do that. Good talk."Not at all. Point to where I've made judgements about the people who see the movie.
My point has simply been that it's inconsistent and to some degree hypocritical to, on the one hand proclaim that one cares about gay rights or supports same-sex marriage, and on the other hand to then ignore Card's repeated public hate or to excuse Card *because you want to see the movie*. Now, if someone has no particular feeling about those issues and doesn't care that Card's statements are hateful (or if that person agrees with Card), then the hypocrisy doesn't exist.
I guess what I'm objecting to is the fannish tendency to freak out over a thing (in this case a movie) and declare that you just HAVE TO SEE IT ZOMG as if one's life will not be complete without seeing the movie/reading the book and promptly set aside any rational thought.
Even more bluntly, don't tell me about your strongly-held principles if you'll violate them for a movie.
What if we make pizza with the aforementioned cheese?Ponder that.
Veronica, look what you hath wrought...
I'm guessing his political views espeically being homophobic does not bother the general public as Ender's Game has been on the New York Times Bestseller's list for over 8 months, even reaching the #1 spot last week.
Kevin - Your logic is flawed since I doubt that many people know about his views at all. Really only SF fans who are fairly involved will run across those.
Also...what's your point?
Don't forgot Ender's Game is also the number 2 bestselling science fiction book of all time, and consider the number 2 science fiction of all times, only behind Dune, but Dune has about 20 years on Ender's Game.
KevinB wrote: "Being tolerant of intolerance leads only to the dead of tolerance. All that wishy washy dawdling about not adding "hatred to hatred" just helps to further his cause."I disagree with this. It might sound 'wishy washy' to you, but I really do feel like reacting angrily to such things can simply make a situation worse. I certainly don't see how my views "further his cause".
From my point of view, if people were to boycott my work because I'd committed similar actions, I'd likely react defensively, and defensive people tend to more sternly and harshly defend their point of view and the actions they have taken, so I would likely just become MORE determined to fulfil my agenda, just to spite them.
I'd probably be more likely to respond to a fan of my work who stated that my views and actions saddened them, and that they were shocked and hurt by the way I was behaving. I wouldn't necessarily change my mind, but it would certainly make me think about it more than a boycott would.
Sean wrote: "Jo wrote: "@Sean: there are any number of people who make donations to organizations like that. I don't like that they do it, but they do. I happen to think it's silly to pretend like some of the purchases you make aren't financially benefiting some of those donors. You just don't happen to know most of them."So because I can't cut off everyone who's a bigoted homophobe, I should turn a blind eye to the ones I do see? Horsehockey. The only way to get rid of bigots is to call them out when they start spewing shit and let them know their views are no longer socially acceptable."
Brilliant summation.
I've always hated the whole, "I can't solve everything so I won't try to solve anything" attitude. Probably not what Jo intended (I hope) but that's how it reads.
Rick wrote: "Jo wrote: "Rick, it seems to me that you're judging people who are going to see the movie. You're certainly free to do that. Good talk."Not at all. Point to where I've made judgements about the..."
I think people are well within their right to see the movie and still disagree with OSC's opinions. A movie is a collaborative effort, and there are more people involved in it's production than the man who wrote the book it's based on. The actors and everyone else involved in making this movie are not complicit with OSC's actions, and it is likely most of them aren't aware of OSC's opinions. If someone disagrees with his opinions, they can still go to the movie to enjoy watching it for it's own merits. The actors, the music, the effects. Sure, paying for it will put money in his pocket, but he's not the only beneficiary of that money. I don't think seeing this movie will compromise the integrity of someone who is opposed to the opinions of it's creator.
If, on the other hand, you don't want to see the movie in the interest of not supporting bigotry, that's cool too.
Isaiah - good point that the movie is a collaborative effort. I at least want people to think hard about supporting anything Card's involved in or profits from if they find his views hateful. It's the fannish reaction that "I just HAVE to see this!" that makes me a little uncomfortable.
Rick wrote: "Isaiah - good point that the movie is a collaborative effort. I at least want people to think hard about supporting anything Card's involved in or profits from if they find his views hateful. It's ..."That is a good point as well, I agree. At the end of the day it just saddens me that this type of discussion has to happen at all, since a good book which most of us probably enjoyed reading was written by an individual with such repugnant ideas.
Adrian wrote: "I still hold that a person's work should be held as separate from their personal lives and opinions, for reasons that have already been mentioned. Though in this country thinking otherwise means all you'd ever read/watch are soup labels."Not if you know what Campbell's is really up to.
Ruth wrote: "I disagree with this. It might sound 'wishy washy' to you, but I really do feel like reacting angrily to such things can simply make a situation worse. I certainly don't see how my views "further his cause"Kameron Hurley has a great blog post on the current kerfuffle with the SFWA newsletter that's equally appropriate here.
So. I get it. The world used to agree with you. You used to be able to say things like, “I really like those lady writers in this industry, especially in swimsuits!” and your fellow writers, editors, agents, and other assorted colleagues would all wink and grin and agree with you, and Asimov would go around pinching women’s asses, and it was so cool! So cool that he could just sexually assault women all the time! You used to be able to say, “Black people are fine. As long as they are clean and don’t live in my neighborhood,” and your friends and colleagues would wink and grin and agree with you. You’d say, “Gay men are gay because they were abused, and all lesbians are really bisexual and just need the love of a good man,” and hey, it was Ok, because no one disagreed with you.
You came to believe that what you believed, and what you said, was true. It was the narrative. You felt happy and self-important about it, because you got it. Sure, you were tolerant. You accepted everyone! You just told it like it was. You stated your opinion. Maybe sometimes people said stuff like, “Well, maybe that’s kind of racist” but you just waved your hand and bellowed, “I’m not a racist!” and then stopped inviting them to parties. Problem solved.
In fact, everyone you knew agreed with you when you said these things, or, if they didn’t agree, they grinned and winked and gritted their teeth instead. In fact, a lot more of them likely gritted their teeth and bore it than you could ever imagine. But by stating your opinion without getting disagreement or pushback, a funny thing happened. You started to believe that your narrative was the only narrative. That your opinion was the sound one. The only one. Absolute, untouchable truth.
Well, welcome to 2013. And the world wide web, where everybody, even those underprivileged nobodies you never had to listen to before, has a chance to be heard.
Surprise. Not everybody agrees with you. In fact, many have not agreed with you for a long, long time
When somebody says something offensive and no one speaks up, it just creates the impression that what they're saying isn't actually offensive. It normalizes bigotry. That's how SF has been since the days of John W. Campbell. It's why authors like Card feel they can get away with advocating the overthrow of the federal government if it ever grants full civil rights to homosexuals. It's why Mike Resnick and Barry Malzberg feel they can write a column for the SFWA news letter in which they debate which female editors are the hottest. It's why editors still put out anthologies that only contain white, male authors. And it's past time people stop holding their tongues about it. If that makes the people on the receiving end feel defensive, too bad.
Gary wrote: "Yeah, he's a piece 'o work.However, to me, the really important thing about OSC's opinions is that they've managed to distract attention away from the fact that he's really not all that talented ..."
Oh, yeah. I feel the same way. Ender's Game came highly recommended to me, but I found it trite from start to finish. The action was competent but I did not care for any of the characters, and I knew the ending a long time before it came.
Doug wrote: "Oh, yeah. I feel the same way. Ender's Game came highly recommended to me, but I found it trite from start to finish. The action was competent but I did not care for any of the characters, and I knew the ending a long time before it came."Whew. Starting to think nobody was paying attention there for a minute....
This whole conversation evaporates as soon as people make an honest and objective appraisal of Ender's Game as a piece of work. If somebody with talent starts saying stupid things then we can talk about the merits of separating the art and the artist. In this case, though, the art and the artist are both banal, so the debate only props up the book as if it had some sort of qualities that Card lacks. It really doesn't.
It's like the whole nonsense argument about Chick-fil-A opposing gay marriage a while back. Really? You're going to get worked up about the opinions of the people who run a bad fast food chain? You shouldn't eat that stuff anyway. Go see a good movie or read a good book (and maybe get a nice chicken parm from a place with a chef....)
@Gary,Just to clarify, Ender's Game is NOT a good book?
Jon wrote: "@Gary,Just to clarify, Ender's Game is NOT a good book?"
Pot to kettle: We're both black!
Sean wrote: "When somebody says something offensive and no one speaks up, it just creates the impression that what they're saying isn't actually offensive. It normalizes bigotry.Here, I completely agree with you. My point wasn't against speaking out; I merely think there are better ways of doing it than boycotting a film which, whatever its artistic merits, doesn't in itself have anything to do with the issue.
Ruth wrote: "KevinB wrote: "Being tolerant of intolerance leads only to the dead of tolerance. All that wishy washy dawdling about not adding "hatred to hatred" just helps to further his cause."I disagree wit..."
Honestly, what OSC thinks about being called out on his BS doesn't bother me one bit. I'm totally not interested in trying to change his mind, or that of other entrenched homophobes. That's wasted effort. What I'm interested in is changing the mentality of the silent majority. The people standing on the side lines.
Leslie wrote: "So what is your favorite cheese Nathan? :)"My top three are:
1. Stilton (mentioned before)
A nice creamy (but not too creamy) blue cheese on the softer side produced in England.
2. Smoked Gouda. Lately I have been eating Yancy's Fancy Smoked Gouda, made in New York.
3. Dubliner, made by Kerry Gold. Taste wise, it is a cross of Cheddar and Parmesan. It is good by itself, in a dish or melted for toasted cheese sanswitches. It is made in Ireland.
I have also been known to like a goats milk gouda, chev, manchego, port salut, and, of course cheddar.
How about Havarti?The Rodney Dangerfield of cheeses.
Jon wrote: "How about Havarti?The Rodney Dangerfield of cheeses."
Apparently I give it no respect.
Nathan wrote: "Jon wrote: "How about Havarti?The Rodney Dangerfield of cheeses."
Apparently I give it no respect."
This may be one of the best posts ever.
Ruth wrote: "I'd probably be more likely to respond to a fan of my work who stated that my views and actions saddened them, and that they were shocked and hurt by the way I was behaving. I wouldn't necessarily change my mind, but it would certainly make me think about it more than a boycott would. ..."
In my mind, that's exactly what I'm doing in regard to OSC. I'm not shouting at the man, "I'm boycotting your work because you are a homophobic bigot". I'm quietly saying "I can't read his work because I feel bad when I do so."
Secondly, I don't desire any response from OSC. I don't even ask him to amend his opinion. He has a right to it. He has a right to say what he likes and I would defend his right to that. None of us, however, have carte blanche. We cannot say anything we like and expect there to be no repurcussions. (i.e. the negative opinion of others.) When we put our opinions out there for public consumption, we face the consequences. (arguments, bad feelings, boycotts)
Oooo Love Stilton. I've never had Dubliner. See it all the time at the market. I'll have to pick some up next time. Today I've got some chunks of a nice smoked mozzerella in my penne pasta. Yum yum.My favorite cheese is cave-aged Gruyare. Nice nutty flavor and those salt crystallization are divine!
You might want to try to make a pizza with that smolked mozzerella. It pairs well with bacon, tomatoes, both sundried and not, onions, anchovies (if you like them), ham/canadian bacon, pineapple, or sausage.I am sure I have tried Gruyare in the past though I do not remember it. I'll pick it up when I see it.
Louise wrote: Cheddar is fine for cooking, but other than that I've always found it really bland"
I have found it really depends on who makes it. A nice sharp or extra sharp cheddar from, say Kerry Gold of Ireland, Tillamook out of the Pacific North West both are good, as well as any number of smaller producers who, if I remembered and listed them would make me look snooty.
Nice! I see a need for more smoked mozzerella in my future. :)
Note: for those who are also wondering, IGMS is Intergalactic Medicine Show, an online fantasy and SF magazine founded by Card. Here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterGa...Yeah, I Google a lot.
Oh thanks Serendi. I'd meant to Google that, but then I forgot. :)
True that! After all, that's what Dr. Google is for. LOL :)
If you must go see the movie, consider waiting until it's 4th week in your local theater. Apparently, the percentage of your ticket price going to the studio (an thus in part, to OSC) goes from 80% or more in the 1st week to 20% or less in the 4th.http://themovieblog.com/2007/economic...
Though I do like the idea of purchasing bigot offsets as an alternative. Personally, I don't plan to see the movie, but I thought I'd share this bit of insight into the movie biz.
He already got paid. He didn't help with the screen play. The book was awful.
Don't agree with any of this from Sean:"It normalizes bigotry. That's how SF has been since the days of John W. Campbell. It's why authors like Card feel they can get away with advocating the overthrow of the federal government if it ever grants full civil rights to homosexuals. It's why Mike Resnick and Barry Malzberg feel they can write a column for the SFWA news letter in which they debate which female editors are the hottest. It's why editors still put out anthologies that only contain white, male authors."
(1) If Card makes the statement that the government should be overthrown because it doesn't do what he wants, that in itself is not "normalizing bigotry." It's free speech, whether or not one likes what he says. And a neutral response toward Card's ethics need not be aligning oneself with Card, but simply acknowledging that one cannot change some people.
(2) Men macking on women in the context you mention is extremely bad taste. However, it's not bigotry at all to express sexual desire in a poorly chosen forum. It's only bigotry if one advocates keeping all women barefoot and pregnant, or similar sentiments.
(3) How do you know that all the authors in a given anthology are white males, and how do you establish that the editors who bought the stories knew that?
Richardya wrote: "He already got paid. He didn't help with the screen play. The book was awful."He's a producer with a financial stake in the project. So a portion of your ticket goes directly to his pocket, and he funds hate speech with it.
Adrian wrote: "And of course, because you say it's a bad book it must be so, surely people who think otherwise are not being "honest and objective", even though when it comes to judging the value of any work (of art, mind you) humans are about as objective as iron is non-ferrous. "At no point did Gary or Doug say that you weren't allowed to have a differing opinion. They merely stated their own opinion.
Gene wrote: "(1) If Card makes the statement that the government should be overthrown because it doesn't do what he wants, that in itself is not "normalizing bigotry." It's free speech, whether or not one likes what he says. And a neutral response toward Card's ethics need not be aligning oneself with Card, but simply acknowledging that one cannot change some people."That's not what he's talking about. He's saying that Card has come to believe that his beliefs are normal and mainstream because no one has countered them. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" and all that. That's how these discriminatory beliefs seem to feel normal for these twists.
Gene wrote: "(2) Men macking on women in the context you mention is extremely bad taste. However, it's not bigotry at all to express sexual desire in a poorly chosen forum. It's only bigotry if one advocates keeping all women barefoot and pregnant, or similar sentiments."
That's pretty much the underlying sentiment, though. The notion that this separate group is "less than," especially by those in positions of power. Sexual bigotry is no different from racial or religious bigotry.
Gene wrote: "(3) How do you know that all the authors in a given anthology are white males, and how do you establish that the editors who bought the stories knew that?"
Presumably because the editors can read when they sign the checks. And that the readers can read when they read the books.
Gene wrote: "(3) How do you know that all the authors in a given anthology are white males, and how do you establish that the editors who bought the stories knew that?.."Even the smallest amount of research on the internet will produce this information most of the time.
Nathan wrote: "You might want to try to make a pizza with that smolked mozzerella. It pairs well with bacon, tomatoes, both sundried and not, onions, anchovies (if you like them), ham/canadian bacon, pineapple, o..."Oh man Tillamook...I am missing that quality level having moved away from Seattle. :(
Gene wrote: "(1) If Card makes the statement that the government should be overthrown because it doesn't do what he wants, that in itself is not "normalizing bigotry."I didn't say it does. I said when statements like that go unchallenged, it creates an impression that nobody disagrees with what's being said except maybe a few loudmouths on the fringe who can safely dismissed.
It's free speech, whether or not one likes what he says.
Most bigotry is. That doesn't exempt it from criticism.
And a neutral response toward Card's ethics need not be aligning oneself with Card, but simply acknowledging that one cannot change some people.
Who cares if Card ever changes his mind? My concerns are (A) not giving money to a bigot, (B) making sure other people know he's a bigot, and (C) making sure others realize that such bigotry is unacceptable.
(2) Men macking on women in the context you mention is extremely bad taste. However, it's not bigotry at all to express sexual desire in a poorly chosen forum. It's only bigotry if one advocates keeping all women barefoot and pregnant, or similar sentiments.
The forum in question is the official newsletter for the Science Fiction Writers of America, a group that includes a large number of women. To treat those members as pieces of meat to be ogled for the pleasure male members devalues their participation in the organization. That absolutely is bigotry.
(3) How do you know that all the authors in a given anthology are white males,
Most authors don't keep their identities secret. Most, in fact, have homepages with their pictures prominently featured. In the case I'm thinking of, just looking at the table of contents is enough to realize it's a sausage fest, with an extra two minutes of googling to confirm the whiteness of the lesser known authors.
and how do you establish that the editors who bought the stories knew that?
If they don't know and still manage to produce an anthology consisting entirely of white dudes, there's a problem in the selection process, most likely the editor not soliciting a wide enough range of authors to select.
Oh please. The Sword and Laser wiki of read authors is practically all white dudes, with a few exceptions. Interesting though, is that the last 3 out of 4 authors selected have been women, Cherryh being my favorite. Who picks up a freaking cool looking book and says, "Oh dang, I already read a white guy's book this month." I don't care if you're a powder blue smurf, long as your story rocks.
Thane wrote: "Oh please. The Sword and Laser wiki of read authors is practically all white dudes, with a few exceptions."Yes, and some of us have complained about it and make a point of suggesting books by women and people of color whenever we can. The reason we're doing more books by female authors this year is because a bunch of us voiced these concerns in the suggestion thread Tom posted earlier this year.
Who picks up a freaking cool looking book and says, "Oh dang, I already read a white guy's book this month."
No one's saying you should. But if you look at the last dozen books you've read and you find that they're all by white dudes, you should ask yourself, "Why is that? Am I relying too much on what gets prominent placement in the bookstore, or on the front page of Audible? Maybe the blogs I read don't have enough diversity in their recommendations and I should supplement them with some new sources that will provide more variety. Maybe I could even right to the bloggers I do read and ask them to put more effort into diversifying their reading as well."
Katie wrote: "Oh man Tillamook...I am missing that quality level having moved away from Seattle. :("That is where I encountered the brand originally too. I can sometimes find it in my local grocery stores. I have also seen two pound blocks Tillamook of medium, sharp, and extra sharp at Cosco.
Thane wrote: "Oh please. The Sword and Laser wiki of read authors is practically all white dudes, with a few exceptions."Oh, well damn. That settles it. Who cares about the shorties if swordy-lasery selections ain't up in it? Amirite bros?
I just had the weirdest image pop into my head. Everyone buying tickets to another Madea movie and sneaking out to watch Ender's. Personally, I'd love for the group to choose a Bujold book. She's fantastic. Please Tom???
Nathan wrote: "Louise wrote: Cheddar is fine for cooking, but other than that I've always found it really bland"I have found it really depends on who makes it. A nice sharp or extra sharp cheddar from, say Kerry Gold of Ireland, Tillamook out of the Pacific North West both are good, as well as any number of smaller producers who, if I remembered and listed them would make me look snooty. "
I find it interesting that England and America (I assume you're American, Nathan; sorry if I'm wrong) have different standard terms for describing cheese. In England, we use the word 'mature' to describe a stronger cheese, which, frankly, I can't help thinking is a more accurate term than 'sharp' both literally, and because 'sharp' doesn't quite describe for me the stronger, deeper, more...well, mature flavour of such cheeses. But yes, I do quite enjoy a good extra mature cheddar. It should have those little crunchy crystals in it. Yummy!
However, since I must stay true to my roots (and because, frankly, it is damn lovely) I must say my favourite cheese is good old Lancashire cheese. I generally prefer a Lancashire Crumbly, but creamy can be nice too. I have one in my fridge right now with chillies in it. Very nice, and makes a great cheese on toast. :D
Oh, I have never had Lancashire with chillies in it. That sounds yummy. I am a sucker for cheese with some hot component in them. And yes, I am from the States.
Ah yes, Nathan, the infamous "black box" of Tillamook extra sharp cheddar from Costco is a wondrous thing to behold.Lately, however, I've become a big fan of goat cheese. Whether it's Trader Joe's triple cream brie or the Costco size log, the stuff is amazing on almost anything. Homemade pizza? Yes please. Smoked salmon? You know it. And now that it's California barbecuing season (although, honestly, when isn't it?), goat cheese on burgers and steaks is possibly the greatest thing ever.
So, what are your feelings on Other Sources of Cheese, or OSC, as this thread is clearly about?
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Ender’s Game (other topics)You Can Move the Cheese!: The Role of an Effective Servant-Leader (other topics)
Who Moved My Cheese? An Amazing Way to Deal with Change in Your Work and in Your Life... (other topics)
So because I can't cut off everyone who's a bigoted homophobe, I should turn a blind eye to the ones I do see? Horsehockey. The only way to get rid of bigots is to call them out when they start spewing shit and let them know their views are no longer socially acceptable.