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I knew all of that. I meant the particular modern way we use pseudonyms online (from Facebook to Grindr). I've read George Elliot and Georges Sand and, after all Jane Austen hid her name because of the misogyny of the time (which she called manners). In any case, the point was that it was my personal foible that I have some trouble embracing the authenticity of a literary voice when, in this day and age, it is hidden behind a false identity. My chums in the m/m fiction world know this about me and disagree with me heartily with all good will.
Ah, okay. That is of course your prerogative. And there I though Ulysses is a pseud. I stand corrected!
LOL. Everyone thinks it's a pseudonym. Google Ulysses Dietz, or even better, Ulysses Grant Dietz.
I don't have a problem with people using masculine or feminine pen names or online pseudonyms, my only problem is when they pretend to be something they're not. I've openly said I'm a female here, and on other forums where I post with an ambiguous pseudonym. If people assumed I was a male, and I never denied it, but didn't confirm it, and let them carry on believing that, I'd be lying, even if it's by omission. That's what I dislike - the dishonesty. J K Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, was told to only use the initials of her first names, so that boys would buy her books. Apparently if they thought she was a female, there would be less sales. However, she didn't keep up the deception. Of course, that was on a much grander scale, but Josh Lanyon is a very big fish in the m/m/gay writing world, and imho left it too late to tell the truth. It'll always colour my opinion of her and not in a positive light, no matter how much I enjoy reading her stories.
Steelwhisper wrote: "Ah, okay. That is of course your prerogative. And there I though Ulysses is a pseud. I stand corrected!"Ulysses is indeed a very real person. I've had the great pleasure of meeting him in person a few times.
Aussie54 wrote: "If people assumed I was a male, and I never denied it, but didn't confirm it, and let them carry on believing that, I'd be lying, even if it's by omission. ..."You see, THAT is exactly what I have a huge problem with. No, you wouldn't be lying. At all.
The other people would be assuming. You would be doing nothing. No one is under any obligation whatsoever to tell people who are assuming things about them whether those assumptions are correct or not. Not a moral one, not an ethical one, not a legal one. This notion, that suddenly the right to be silent has ceased to exist, or that people have to go around and enlighten others, that is so contrary to every idea in our current legislations, that it really shocks me people are even stating this!
Additionally, if someone takes a male pen name or a male pseud, then they would be contraproductive if they immediately turned around, and said "tee hee, my pen name is male, but I am female". If you did that, you wouldn't have to use a male pen name in the first place.
As to JK Rowling, who seems to be the favourite female author with a male pen name being touted in this discussion, she was actually told by her publisher to do this initially. That's completely different from someone starting out herself with a male pen name for whatever reasons a female author has, to do this. Only when she took the pen name of Robert Galbraith, later, and did not want revealed that the author is her, was it anywhere close to what Lanyon did. And make no mistake, Rowling wanted Robert Galbraith to be and stay a male author entity.
As to why Lanyon did it, I say it again, no one truly knows. But from what she writes about it, how she writes and how she protects her very British privacy, I'm at least 95% sure that this was and is not just marketing and has much more intimate reasons than that. That she is very British in her basic mentality is what shocked me much more than her gender, by the way, and it speaks loud and clear of why she behaved the way she did.
The funniest of all things in this matter is, that right now she is actually trying to clear up some assumptions (the way you say she should) and people reject that and her tidings.
Ulysses wrote: "LOL. Everyone thinks it's a pseudonym. Google Ulysses Dietz, or even better, Ulysses Grant Dietz."Oh dear, that must be the bane of your life, sorry, but I am giggling a bit here. I so naturally assumed that such a name had to be invented, that I guess many others probably also will do that.
And see? If I hadn't asked and you hadn't told me this name is real, you wouldn't have lied to me either. I would have been the one who has assumed things, instead.
Steelwhisper wrote: "Aussie54 wrote: "If people assumed I was a male, and I never denied it, but didn't confirm it, and let them carry on believing that, I'd be lying, even if it's by omission. ..."You see, THAT is e..."
I see we have completely different views on this, so will have to agree to disagree. I can't see you changing your mind, or me, so I'll leave it at that.
Oh dear, that must be the bane of your life, sorry, but I am giggling a bit here...."I am afraid to ask people if their names are real, because at this point I'm so gun-shy. Neil Plakcy is an author who uses his own name (he said: would I make up a name like Plakcy?).
Of course, using my own given (ancestral) was a major part in my coming out process...being my real self. So you can see why names matter to me. Being visible. Being real. At th is point it's so deeply ingrained that I can't help my reactions to all the prevarication in the m/m world. I just try to ignore my feelings and keep reading.
I don't think this is in any way special to the m/m world.And you see, for people like me it is the reverse:
As a BDSMer my 'scene name' (which also is a pseud) is at least as real and relevant to me as my given name, if not more so. And we BDSMers don't stand a chance in hell to ever be treated like LGBT. There will never be a coming out of us.
And as someone who is genderfluid/somewhere on the trans* spectrum my alternate personae give me mental relief, as they reflect my personal feelings. To be nailed to just one, or have people secondguess me, is actually uncomfortable.
So yes, names and pseudonyms/alternate personae matter, but often not in the way people who place importance on their given name think. Just remember how it mattered, for instance, to all those forcibly renamed and outed drag queens on facebook who had their identities ripped from them.
Things aren't so simple, and not the same for everyone.
Supporting gay male authors is, of course, your choice, Don, and one you are and should be allowed to make. There are people who buy only from Christian farmers or who visit only kosher restaurants. Others will shop only ecologically grown goods or what is produced in their own country. However, and that was my point, such personal choices can't serve to police the equally legit choices and freedoms of others. I think the whole discussion highlights a rather different underlying problem: namely that m/m isn't gay fiction/gay romance and derived from a completely different background. The current meshing of these two initially separate audiences and writer spheres can't be satisfactory to everyone.
Possibly it is time for people like you, who want to support gay male authors pretty much exclusively, to found and then financially support a publishing house which publishes only gay male authors? Some sort of cooperation among people who wish to be that selective about their reading? In this day and age, given the ease of practical publishing and distribution routes, that shouldn't be difficult.
A question purely out of interest:Would you read and support a gay male author who writes books under a straight female pen name?
Steelwhisper wrote: "A question purely out of interest:Would you read and support a gay male author who writes books under a straight female pen name?"
LOL. If I could figure it out AND the content was gay (i.e. gay characters as the central focus of the story). I know this wasn't directed at me, but for me it's content.
I'm curious to know who the straight male writers of gay fiction are...we know straight women can write great gay fiction: can straight men?
I see :) I possibly misunderstood some things you said earlier then, as I was under the impression you found it hard to find gay male authored novels.I'm not sure about this, but I believe the Bruno Gmünder Publishing House is exclusively publishing gay male/trans authors. That's why I suggested this as a solution to those who wish for more books clearly designated, so that support can be given.
Don wrote: "I just say I personally feel it's wrong for some one to pose as a gay man, interview themselves as a gay man, market themselves as a gay man writing gay fiction and be a female. That's as far as I feel I personally need to take it. "
I'm still waiting for actual proof of Lanyon posing as gay anywhere. I've said this here, and I believe in one or two other threads on this topic. I guess this makes me hopelessly anal, but unless someone can show me where Lanyon actually wrote that she is gay I can't consider her as someone posing "as a gay man". She may have posed as a man, but that is about as common as men posing as women.
And as I said further above, there are no "lies by omission". That's counter to every democratic legislation I have met so far, and would throw out every civilised legal discourse and reasoning we, as human beings, have achieved in the past few thousand years.
I do know there are several female-born authors who posed as/stated they are gay men. Five of them are either transitioning, have transitioned or are genderfluid with all of them being indeed gay/bisexual. To me they are all fine by the general current idea of what constitutes a gay man. One is lesbian and not anywhere on the trans* scale, and she came out about it pretty soon after taking on the male pen name.
Lanyon, however, I have not (yet) come across anywhere as stating anything above or beyond being male. I would be quite reluctant to state she did, as long as I see no proof of that.
Ulysses wrote: "LOL. If I could figure it out AND the cont..."Heh, I am not going to out anyone. But I wasn't only referring to gay men writing as straight women in m/m (though I would suppose there may be a few).
I more referred to gay men writing f/f and m/f erotica and romance with female pen names, because women sell so much better in these genres. There definitely are a couple dozen gay and straight men writing these genres under female pen names.
Hmmm...This is moot, because I'm still a big Lanyon fan (I'll never call her Josh again...like "Madonna," she's just "Lanyon" for me). But I'm pretty sure somewhere I read that Lanyon lived with "his" partner and the anonymity was to protect him. I had it very clear in my mind that this was a gay couple in California. Anyway, I don't care any more. Lanyon's still one of the top two or three writers of this genre, and every bit as good as most of the top-rated "mainstream" writers currently out there. WHoever Lanyon really is, she's writing for ME, and that's what matters.
Gay and straight men writing m/f and f/f erotica? Ew. Ha ha ha...I'm not going there. But I salute them, because now I understand that this is a brave thing to do IF they do it well (and why not, women write "me" well!).
Yes, I've also lately somehow taken to using the last name. Though,... to me it was the very first pointer to her gender. "Lanyon" is the character in one of the first m/m stories written--by a woman.I'd love to see that reference. All I found, so far, was her own statement that she never said she is gay. I tend to believe her there.
And yes, I agree, her writing is outstanding. One of my most preferred m/m novels is Come Unto These Yellow Sands.
I just read "Murder in Pastel," which she published under a different name in 1990-something. Colin Dunne. It's not her best, but it's better than most everything else. The main character in this is clearly the embryo of Adrien English. But I've loved every one of her books. I'll bet the misapprehension that she was gay came from comments others wrote. I remember digging in the internet for info about Lanyon - so it might be third hand misinformation.
My habit was five years ago to email every author I read and to thank them and praise the book I'd read. That's how I got to know Harper Fox and Neil Plakcy. Then I started writing reviews and stopped the personal contact...Lanyon was never accessible except through the website, and so there was always a little distance.
Don wrote: "In my more naive days before I realized women were writing gay fiction (a concept that never occurred to me)..."Given that gay men always also have been writing lesbian or straight women, I never placed much import on who writes what. As someone who falls between absolutely all the cracks somehow it never occurred to me to do anything but support those authors whose works I liked reading - regardless of their sexual or biological background.
That said, there are lines I would draw. If I learned an author was actively racist, sexist, homophobic or in any other important matter negatively agitating I would cease buying them.
Ulysses wrote: " That's how I got to know Harper Fox and Neil Plakcy...."
Harper is one of my other preferred authors in m/m. And I recently read In Dog We Trust and was quite delighted. I added Neil to my list of auto-buys and will mostly likely read through all of his backlist.
Ulysses wrote: "... My habit was five years ago to email every author I read and to thank them and praise the book I'd read. That's how I got to know Harper Fox and Neil Plakcy. Then I started writing reviews and stopped the personal contact...Lanyon was never accessible except through the website, and so there was always a little distance."Lanyon has/had a LiveJournal, where she interacted with readers. I commented there quite a few times and had "conversations" with her. She also used to comment and interact on JesseWave's Review site. Lanyon offered free books in the various giveaways there, and I interacted with her over that a few times. Always on the understanding that she was a gay man. Meh. What's done is done. I'll still read her books, but my feelings towards her have changed. Not because she's a female, but because she kept up the false persona for so long when she had chances to set the record straight, and has been so defensive about it since.
Re. straight men writing gay fiction...John Irving has written books with gay and trans characters for years and more recently the main character from his book In One Person focused on a bisexual man (and one a Lammy).
Jeffrey Eugenides is another example (trans/intersex Middlesex).
For me, there's a sensibility more than an identity, sort of a gay "point-of-view" that isn't exclusive to gay male writers. It's hard to describe, but I don't feel it reading most m/m romance. No knocks against it. It's a separate genre IMHO.
Andrew wrote: "Re. straight men writing gay fiction..."Quite a few straight men are also writing m/m, as they write m/f and f/f under female pen names. My personal suspicion is that no one calls out against them, because they aren't claiming any social privileges by doing so.
As to m/m. I've long been stating that it is something quite different from gay romance or gay fiction. Sure, there is some overlap, but m/m has derived mainly from slash and yaoi, and those have always been genres of women writing for women while using male relationships as a stage for male avatars. It's not meant to be realistic (of the gay male experience), it's not even primarily about gay men. A lot of the complaints people have, who enter m/m from the aspect of gay fiction, are the result of this.
Aussie54 wrote: "Not because she's a female, but because she kept up the false persona for so long when she had chances to set the record straight, and has been so defensive about it since. ..."
I wouldn't "set records straight" about any of my other pen names, because I took them precisely to create that other personae. Why you assume that people using other personae would do that and then "set records straight" on the next turn around, is really beyond my understanding.
There are multiple approaches to pen names, pseuds and author personae and only a very, very tiny fragment of those are simple marketing mechanisms, left open to be quickly discovered. I still contend that I sense a kinky/authorial background to Lanyon's JL persona.
Also, she is British. I do not sense anything negative in her reactions, just a major case of wanting people to stay out of her private sphere. I think you possibly fail to realise how intrusive some women do get with who they perceive to be male and in this genre gay male authors. If that intrusiveness is then extended to the actual person rather the persona I'd get a tad scratchy about it myself. In all reality, no one has any business to ask someone, who has consistently refused to answer that question in the past, what they do in bed and what their sexual orientation is - just because they are reading their books. That's rarely something Brits feel comfortable with.
Gosh, maybe my definition of m/m is inaccurate. At this stage in my reading gay genre fiction (after five years and 700 books) is that pure romance rarely satisfies me. I need stories that engage the lives of the characters fully, and they need to be believably gay men (and not, as you said, just some fantasy avatar of a gay man). As to the world of pseudonyms - it is what it is. I will never use one. But I no longer care if others do. I do resent the idea that a pen name for your gay fiction is necessary because your "real" fiction should be in your own name. Lanyon said this in "his" book. I've heard other young gay authors who use pen names say this.
By the way, John Irving's gay characters have never been fully believable to me. I give him credit for trying, even the great transgender foodball player in Garp was, to me, pretty hollow. Straight women who make the effort seem to understand how to create fully-formed gay male characters. Including Lanyon.
Maybe I needed to phrase it differently: which straight male authors write books where the main characters are gay and the book is about them and their lives?
I saw the movie, but I didn't read Garp. The Hotel New Hampshire was probably the first novel I ever read with a gay character, from a time when I was just beginning to understand that I was gay myself. He's not the main character (Frank), but I thought he was handled quite well.The main character in Irving's In One Person is of course bisexual, and Eugenides' Middlesex is IMHO a gorgeous novel. Not being trans or intersex myself, I can't vouch authoritatively on its authenticity, but it sure felt honest to me.
It feels like there are gay novels by straight male authors on the tip of my tongue, and I'll give it some thought and come back to it. I mentioned the idea of sensibility above, and I think that's what I'm responding to in your question Ulysses. As a gay male reader, I've been drawn to certain authors that get that perspective right, even when the content isn't overtly gay, and regardless of their gender or sexuality. J.D. Salinger comes to mind as one example (lots of speculation about whether the famous Holden Caulfield was gay).
I will also have to agree to disagree with Steelwhisper, on several points. I agree on some issues, but would not have phrased my comments the way they did.I'll preface this by saying that I prefer at least contemporary and historical genre fiction to have protagonists who seem relatively realistic to me. I am suspending a lot of disbelief anyway for paranormal and science fiction books, but I still prefer that the characters, if human, act like I would recognize people might act.
In romance, I like this kind of realism too, what amount is allowed within the confines of the genre. I can recognize if an author is using the standard romance tropes, and know what kinds of trope use are satisfying to me. And that's what I look for, whatever the author's gender, characters and tropes I like.
I know that straight men write f/f and m/f erotica. As I said above, I know women of many sexual orientations write m/m romance. I also know of a number of transgendered men and genderfluid people writing m/m romance. To my knowledge, very few cis men write m/m romance. There are plenty of gay men who write gay literature (I know, Uly. I am talking about books classified as literature.) and gay erotica.
I have heard from several people about the work involved in starting a publishing house. It's not a casual undertaking.
I'm having trouble with some of the things Steelwhisper presented as fact, some of their speculation, and their tone in some comments. I am not as patient and gracious as the male commenters in this discussion have been. I can go point by point in private messages, but don't care to do that in public.
In public, I'll say we disagree on how many cis men are writing what I classify as m/m romance. I am afraid I will become even less civil if I get specific about what else I disagree on. But privately I have my opinions.
How interesting! Now success is a scary state to be in!
I finally had some time to catch up on Lanyon's annual Advent Calendar. I'm too late for any deals or giveaways, but here are the new Christmas Codas:Jesse & Rocky from Baby, it's Cold:
http://joshlanyon.blogspot.com/2015/1...
Colin & Thomas from The French Have a Word for It:
http://joshlanyon.blogspot.com/2015/1...
Aleister & Vaentine from Strange Fortune:
http://joshlanyon.blogspot.com/2015/1...
Peter & Mike from Don't Look Back:
http://joshlanyon.blogspot.com/2015/1...
Adam & Rob from Winter Kill:
http://joshlanyon.blogspot.com/2015/1...
Jake & Adrien:
http://joshlanyon.blogspot.com/2015/1...
Emilie wrote: "I will also have to agree to disagree with Steelwhisper, on several points. I agree on some issues, but would not have phrased my comments the way they did...."Writing romance (het or m/m) has become a business, and cis men will partake in any business which promises financial gain as much as gay men. I know authors who will write and write successfully whatever is the current favourite flavour - be it romance, be it erotica. They will use male and female pen names, according to what will most likely pay off best.
No, they are not few at all. That maybe was so a couple of decades ago, but ever since the ebook and indie publishing? Anything goes.
If you want to disbelieve that, that's fine by me. I have no stone to grind there. I'm just reporting what I know.
Don wrote: "Are there really that many straight men writing m/m romance under female pen names? It's getting rather silly. Personally, as I wouldn't be reading them in the first place, I wouldn't be the one ca..."Yes, there are quite a few and they become more. There are also straight men who write het romance under female names, and there are straight men who write as gay men.
As I already said to Emilie: writing and publishing has become a business, and people will do what will pay them enough to live on. The times that traditional publishers were the gatekeepers who favoured specific author genders are long gone. Indie publishers don't care any which way, and self-publishing authors hide as they please.
I'd say these days, if you want to make sure that something has been written by a gay man you'd best seek out gay trad publishers who mainly or only publish works written by gay men.
Jax wrote: "I finally had some time to catch up on Lanyon's annual Advent Calendar. I'm too late for any deals or giveaways, but here are the new Christmas Codas:Jesse & Rocky from [book:Baby, it's Cold|2437..."
Thanks, Jax.
I'm reading Lanyon's latest, The Mermaid Murders, with features two FBI agents, one of whom, Jason West, is an art expert temporarily reassigned from the Art Crimes team. When Jason checks into his hotel room, he notes two "Homer Winslow" prints, and later it comes up that "Redmond Granville" was the subject of his masters thesis. The problem is, their names are Winslow Homer and Granville Redmond.The first one I thought was an editing error, but that it happened twice had me thinking it was deliberate, but I can't figure out why. I would think that since one of the main characters is an art expert, Lanyon would make sure the art facts were correct. So I'm wondering if anyone knows if there's some copyright reason for reversing their names?
Mod
Hmmm, can you contact the author through her website? Maybe this would be a question to ask "in person," so to speak!
Hmmm, can you ..."When I got to the Homer flip yesterday I Tweeted her and so far she hasn't responded, so I'm not optimistic about getting a reply through her website.
That's so strange. I didn't even notice the Winslow Homer switch. Maybe my brain just automatically corrected it and I didn't take note?? Yeah, I'll go with that, lol. I did try to look up the other guy but when I didn't get anything about a painter, I figured Lanyon made the name up. It did seem odd not to just use someone real.
Definitely let us know if you ever hear anything.
Liz wrote: "Hmmm, can you ..."When I got to the Homer flip yesterday I Tweeted her and so far she hasn't responded, so I'm not optimistic about getting a reply through her website."
This is an old e-mail address, but it might still work: josh.lanyon@sbcglobal.net
As far as I know, there's no copyright issue about using the real name of a famous person.
Please do let us know what the story is. Thanks!
There's also a Josh Lanyon author group on here on GR. Josh is present there and answers questions.
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Josh replied to my Tweeter inquiry about Homer Winslow with this:"My copyeditor iz giving me a sad. :-("
So I guess that's that.
Mod
Octobercountry wrote: "Well, now they can fix it, at least. But the mistakes really should have been caught in editing---I mean, very specific names like that seem an obvious thing to check."I agree. It was careless of them to let this happen, and surprising that it happened at all. If one of your characters is an art expert, I would expect them to be diligent about checking the facts related to his expertise.
Liz wrote: "Hmmm, can you ..."When I got to the Homer flip yesterday I Tweeted her and so far she hasn't responded, so I'm not optimistic about getting a reply through her website."
She answers questions here on her goodreads author page sometimes.
ETA: And I see I'm a dollar late and a dime short. :)
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I don't think anyone there "takes advantage" of anyone else. But that's my personal opinion, based on - as I see it - that all that an author owes a reader is a good story and well-written book. That's very oldfashioned, I know ;)
However, using pen names is by no means a "modern" thing. Look here for instance:
http://io9.com/5077952/women-who-pret...
Lots of women in history did it. Lots of men wrote and write romance, erotica or chicklit with female pen names.
Alternate artists names are an old thing within all forms of art, including androgynous or genderneutral names. Femme gay men, for instance, used female or androgynous pseudonyms for hundreds of years.
It's really not a new or modern thing.