Modern Good Reads discussion
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Quality control for indie authors... is there a way?
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Gregor
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May 21, 2013 07:32PM
@Guinevere - Richard's approach is fair, if you got the book as part of an R4R type deal.
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Christopher wrote: "Hi, Sophia,Your discussion brings up a valid disparity between the market's perception of the quality of traditionally published books and indie-published books. The fundamental reason continues..."
Nicely said, Chris.
Count me in if you want volunteers for vetting a list of books that pass a quality control check. I was just complaining about the awful-quality books that waste my time on a thread on ASMSG (Michelle sent me here), but I'm willing to help, if you want it. I presume an author would submit his/her book for vetting? Then we can have a quality control mark on any book that passes? Once that standard has become set in concrete, of course...
Jonathon wrote: "Guinevere wrote: "I have to say I was really feeling like a bully for wanting to be honest about the book. But perhaps being critical of the book could improve a book not edited well? "I really t..."
The guy was limited to 45 in his milieu. On Amazon and GR, we're not limited, and I don't believe it's fair to readers to avoid giving a less-than-3-star review just to spare the author. One, it's a cheat to those readers who are limited in time and/or money to not give them information that will help them make a choice. Two, it's not fair to the author, and certainly isn't giving them honest feedback if you don't tell them.
Now, if an author sends me a book to review and I would give it a 2 or less, then I send them a private critique and tell them I won't post a a review. It is, however, fair game if an author has published a book and put it out there.
Kathy wrote: "Jonathon wrote: "Guinevere wrote: "I have to say I was really feeling like a bully for wanting to be honest about the book. But perhaps being critical of the book could improve a book not edited we..."@ Kathy: Once again, I have to agree with you 100%. If the book is not out yet, tell them privately that it doesn't qualify for a better rating than 1 or 2 stars. If the book is out on the market, then there is an obligation to readers and authors whose 3, 4, or 5 stars are no courtesy but earned.
Kathy wrote: "Now, if an author sends me a book to review and I would give it a 2 or less, then I send them a private critique and tell them I won't post a a review. It is, however, fair game if an author has published a book and put it out there."I like the sound of a private critique. I'm currently reading an R4R science fiction novel and it is great, at least so far, but I was a little concerned about what I would do if it turned out to be poorly written, or downright unreadable.
Richard wrote: "I keep telling myself not to keep commenting on this thread, but... Hmmm... There's a lot of confusion and inconsistency about the meaning of those Goodreads stars. If you look at the system it say..."I'm glad you did Richard because I, for one, had not seen that distinction between GR's stars and say Amazon's stars. I've always hated the whole star system, but if there must be one, I prefer the GR system.
Sadly I think the Amazon definition is used by default. :(
Richard I have to say please kvetch all you want. I thought your rating explanation nailed it. And then there is the half stars.... Honestly it should be a guide line and regardless of the star rating and review one needs to remember to take them with a grain of salt, lime wedge and a shot of tequila when possible because they boil down to an opinion. Even critics have praised books that I personally didn't enjoy and vice versa. So as a Reader I keep this in mind.On the same note I would like to add that I find a poorly written synopsis or no synopsis will deter me from reading a book rather than poor rating or review.
Richard wrote: "This is somewhat related to this thread. Yes, I laughed at bits of what Ms Veinglory would rather be warned about. See end of paragraph 3:http://www.eroticromancepublishers.co......"
Nice one Richard. :) I had to laugh at the 'rampant run on sentences'. Erotica is not my thing but Ms Vainglory writes with wit, at least on her blog. :)
Mod
Well, you know, the stars thing is just like 'ole Doctor Suess described it in the Sneetches on the Beaches:
We (authors) all want the world to see the wonderful stars on our bellies. And in the popularity game, star ratings, be they here, Amazon, or anywhere else, are the equivalent of a Sneetch running around with 'stars upon thars', happily declaring his/her status to the world.
While many people do think the content of the review is more important than anything else, in the numbers game it comes down to star averages.
:)
Travis wrote: "While many people do think the content of the review is more important than anything else, in the numbers game it comes down to star averages."You are so right Travis. :( There is an element of democracy about the process you just can't argue with : readers like what they like. Period. But sometimes in the dead of night I wish we had something akin to the Academy Awards where the quality of your work was judged by your peers rather than by simple popularity. And yes, I know Oscar isn't awarded purely on merit. ;)
I am glad I found this post. I recently created a blog, "Only Quality Indie," which provides work by authors who are worthy. While not far-reaching or empirical, it nonetheless can provide a niche for the discerning eye. I am currently working on another project, and could use some guest bloggers. You can view the site at the following link. Please keep in mind that it is very new. I have another author interview in the works, and should have it posted within the next week or so.http://onlyqualityindie.blogspot.com
Stephen wrote: "I am glad I found this post. I recently created a blog, "Only Quality Indie," which provides work by authors who are worthy. While not far-reaching or empirical, it nonetheless can provide a niche ..."The more we give good indie writers a forum in which to be seen, the more we can help raise the awareness of quality indie writing generally.
Good luck with your project Stephen. I'm trying to do my bit too by recommending the best indie talent [that I have read] on my blog. Tastes can certainly differ but at least grammar and spelling stay the same. Well... I do use Brit spelling but let's not quibble. ;)
Won't there come a time when indy authors stop being indy. For example, when your sales are up, and your exposure is widespread, authors will probably be accused of being part of the system!
R.M.F wrote: "Won't there come a time when indy authors stop being indy. For example, when your sales are up, and your exposure is widespread, authors will probably be accused of being part of the system!"The only indie I know who fits that bill is Hugh Howey but he's still more of a hybrid. He brings his ebooks out as an indie but has a trad. publisher for the print versions. The rest of us can just dream. :)
Stephen wrote: "I am glad I found this post. I recently created a blog, "Only Quality Indie," which provides work by authors who are worthy. While not far-reaching or empirical, it nonetheless can provide a niche ..."Hi Stephen. I've subscribed to your blog. :)
OK, this odd that it came up on a different site, since I've been paying attention to this thread. Has anyone heard of the indiePENdants? They are supposedly doing what Sophia was asking for, seal of approval included. There is more info at their website: http://www.indiependents.org/index.html
Noree wrote: "OK, this odd that it came up on a different site, since I've been paying attention to this thread. Has anyone heard of the indiePENdants? They are supposedly doing what Sophia was asking for, seal ..."Yes. They basically look only at the mechanics of a submitted novel - grammar, spelling, general readability. Those that pass this basic quality control receive seals. Unfortunately reader awareness of the 'seal' is still low as they have not been in operation for all that long.
I noticed they haven't and that's one of the problems with the "Seal of Approval" thing anywhere. Unless it's from a major name readers probably won't know about it.
Noree wrote: "I noticed they haven't and that's one of the problems with the "Seal of Approval" thing anywhere. Unless it's from a major name readers probably won't know about it."Exactly right Noree. A seal backed by say Goodreads would have impact, but could you imagine the avalanche of books being submitted? And then you'd also have to decide on things like spelling. US spelling only? Or would you also allow Brit spelling?
It would be really nice for both readers and writers if someone reputable vetted books to a certain standard, but it would be sooooo hard to do.
Sophia wrote: "Stephen wrote: "I am glad I found this post. I recently created a blog, "Only Quality Indie," which provides work by authors who are worthy. While not far-reaching or empirical, it nonetheless can ..."Thanks, Sophia! You will notice that I updated the site with a new featured author. Please feel free to comment or suggest any modifications to the site.
I have never given reviews much consideration as a reader. When I buy from a bookshop, I always read the first page or more to see if the style is to my liking, and if the story grabs me. I have lost count of the number of times I have yawned myself to a standstill reading books that are bestsellers/mustreads. When I buy online, I always read a sample, and if there is no sample I don't buy.My point is, Indie or Trad makes no difference to me as I will make a decision as to whether to buy the book or not from the opening pages. If its badly written, I leave it. So as a reader I have the power to starve the poorly written stuff of sales, and this is the best form of control. The growth in Independent Publishing has really put the power in the hands of the reader, exactly where it should be. We should all credit the reading public with more sense, and let them weed out the rubbish by using the tools to preview the book and simply not buying it.
As an aside, the Indie/Trad divide, in my limited experience, only exists within the publishing world. The overwhelming majority of my friends had little idea that there was any difference, and when buying a book, who looks to see who published it? Not me.
This is an interesting thread with some good opinions.
A.C. wrote: "Noree wrote: "I noticed they haven't and that's one of the problems with the "Seal of Approval" thing anywhere. Unless it's from a major name readers probably won't know about it."Exactly right N..."
Actually, an institution does exist to vet books before they are unleashed on an unsuspectng public. Editors. It's why self-pblishing authors need them. Maybe we need an editor being mentioned in the copyright page or a forward with a summary of their qualifications or an URL so a potential buyer can verify. Or as B R says, open it and reject It if it has grammatical problems.
B R wrote: "I have never given reviews much consideration as a reader. When I buy from a bookshop, I always read the first page or more to see if the style is to my liking, and if the story grabs me. I have lo..."Good point BR. I don't look at the imprint either, however in ebooks at least, the price is a clear indicator of whether a novel is self-published or traditionally published.
So would the cost of the novel influence your choice? i.e. do you browse by category, or price, or what?
As an indie myself, I have an almost morbid interest in other readers' buying habits. ;)
Michelle wrote: "I would kill for an accreditation seal. I am a devoted writer and an editor. The poor editing on many books sickens me."Agreed.
It's stories like what the OP stated that gives indie books a bad rap, and always have.
A seal of approval that has some backing would be quite ideal.
Kathy wrote: "Actually, an institution does exist to vet books before they are unleashed on an unsuspectng public. Editors. It's why self-pblishing authors need them."I agree we all writers need editors, especially indies, however most indies can't afford them. A decent editor will charge upwards of $500. That is a huge investment with very little hope of return.
I managed to scrape together the funds to have my first novel professionally edited, and I'm glad I did, but I was one of the lucky ones. Most Indies just can't afford that kind of money.
And editing skill varies widely. I did hire an editor for my book, and paid quite a bit, but still things were missed that others have picked up since. (Like bought instead of brought.) I totally agree with BR. As a reader, I download a sample, and that gives me a pretty good idea of whether to pay for the book or not. I can usually tell by the sample if a book is poorly edited or not, and if the story captures me enough to overlook that or not (sometimes it does).
A.C. wrote: "B R wrote: "I have never given reviews much consideration as a reader. When I buy from a bookshop, I always read the first page or more to see if the style is to my liking, and if the story grabs m..."That's a good point; I have only recently started reading eBooks(Last 3 or 4 months) There is a huge price difference in the new releases sometimes, although I have seen prices for books published last year creeping down. Not sure if this is a trend though.
As an example, I am reading P V Brett's 'Demon Cycle' Book 1 is £2.99, Book 2 is £3.99 and the latest one is £9.99 on Kindle (Published Jan 2009, April 2010 and Feb 2013 respectively.)
So perhaps prices will equalize with time.
Here are two interesting articles on pricing:
Mark Coker: Indie Authors Are Underpricing Their Books
http://www.forbes.com/sites/suwcharma...
New Smashwords Research Helps Authors and Publishers Sell More Ebooks
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-co...
Although I am an advocate for Indie work, I am really tired of picking through trash to find treasure. If you are interested in a more detailed example, you can click over to the Only Quality Indies site to see why I started it. It is a bit long to post here, I think.http://onlyqualityindie.blogspot.com/...
B R wrote: "A.C. wrote: "B R wrote: "I have never given reviews much consideration as a reader. When I buy from a bookshop, I always read the first page or more to see if the style is to my liking, and if the ..."That's interesting. I wonder if P V Brett started as an indie and then signed with a traditional publisher for the latest ebook. I'd be happy paying the equivalent of $5 if I thought I would get a quality 'product' for that price, but I do think that ebooks should remain affordable. If the price starts creeping up too much, reading will become a budget item again, and I don't think that's good for readers or writers.
Mod
I agree we all writers need ..."
The best editing you can get, in terms of development and line edits, is from a group of authors you know and trust, whose writing styles can mesh fairly well.
Then, after you do the round-robin critique/edits back and forth, the only thing you really need is a proofreader/grammar nazi to dot all the i's & cross the t's.
That is the new mode of writing with Indies. Its the only way I can get decent editing without paying for it.
Mod
Mod
Keep kvetching, Richard. These are spot on points about the GR rating system, and you've presented a very well organized demonstration. Thanks for clarifying this often misunderstood system.
Travis wrote: The best editing you can get, in terms of development and line edits, is from a group of authors you know and trust, whose writing styles can mesh fairly well.
I totally agree with this, although it's not new. I've been working with a great group for years now, and we're all traditionally published in one form or another. The only editing post-group has been, as you say, proofreading for typos and grammar.
Perhaps it's new to indies, but we've been using it successfully for years, and I shall continue to do so now I'm venturing into the Indie world as well.
I think Travis mentioned back on page one that books are not going to be successful based on good grammar, spelling and punctuation. Most books are given emotional reviews based on world building, characterization, in depth plot and the vehicles used to move the plot forward at a pace agreeable to the reader. Professional reviews seem to place more importance on the grammar etc aspect. Personally I consider myself an emotional reviewer, how did I connect with the characters, did the plot grab me and pull me in etc. I would only mention grammar, etc if it pulled me out of the story for some reason.
When I rate a book that grammar etc aspect would have to be terrible to lose an entire star and I would state this in my review and follow up with what I loved about the story and what didn't work for me. It is amazing how many indy authors have sent me messages and have had their books "edited" and brought in beta readers for the next book.
As a reader..awards etc mean nothing ..my trusted friends on GR and the GR buzz makes me buy books. I look at the authors who have gone from indy to trad publishing that started promoting here on GR. EL James (I liked FSoG first time I read it..second time not as much), Sylvia Day, Jamie McGuire to name a few off the top of my head.
I still say getting out there mixing with readers finding the readers in a group that most people respect and ask them to do a r2r on your book...that is how you do it. I think that is why other groups (one I mod actually) have had a lot of success getting big name authors in the genre to do "chats" in the groups. They stay connected with the reader that way.
all my own opinion of course...I'm not an author..or at least not yet ok ok 1 chapter..I have written 1 chapter so maybe I'm a wanna be:)
t'irla ~The BookSlayer~ wrote: "Personally I consider myself an emotional reviewer, how did I connect with the characters, did the plot grab me and pull me in etc. I would only mention grammar, etc if it pulled me out of the story for some reason."I don't know if it's my age [60] or the fact that I write and so notice certain things more, but if a novel is poorly written I just can't get into it.
I keep getting jerked out of the story by the obvious errors - spelling, punctuation, grammar - or can't immerse myself in the world because of the awkward writing.:(
A.C. wrote: "t'irla ~The BookSlayer~ wrote: "Personally I consider myself an emotional reviewer, how did I connect with the characters, did the plot grab me and pull me in etc. I would only mention grammar, et..."I'm pretty easy AC..but I'm not really a writer and that would be part of it...if the story grabs me..and I can get lost in it then for me it is a good read. Grammar and all aside. But if it is so bad it pulls me out of the story..then I get mad *grin* and start ranting but it has to be really bad and I have read some really bad ones that make you wonder if the author actually reread it prior to publishing. PS again has nothing to so with it..you are only slightly older than me *shshshsh* don't tell anyone though I keep saying I"m 25 LOL
t'irla ~The BookSlayer~ wrote: "A.C. wrote: "t'irla ~The BookSlayer~ wrote: "Personally I consider myself an emotional reviewer, how did I connect with the characters, did the plot grab me and pull me in etc. I would only mentio..."lol - I promise, I won't tell. You don't look a day over 24 anyway. ;)
I'm reading this thread with great interest. I haven't self published a book in 12 years. It was an 1850s true crime, murder. We sold about 1400 which is good considering it was before the big internet boom, let alone the indie boom. Now, looking back, I see boo boos in it. (At least it shows my writing has improved, right?)Because of a plagiarism issue, I have the few copies I have left on Amazon to show it's still for sale but I'm not pushing them. I'm redoing it for Createspace, kindle, etc. at which time I will take the others down.(I still write a lot by the way.)
I'm petrified to put the book out there again---actually, anything out there. I want it to be the quality that could make it to a list that you're talking about. I'd look at it as a goal to strive for. Not that it would make it to the list, but I want the quality to be there. I don't want to embarrass myself. I don't want to find out after I publish that I missed something. It's a great murder case so the story is there. Mine would be the type of punctuation issues, typos, possibly grammar that you are talking about. And what type of editing do you call that, by the way? Is that line editing?
I don't think it is just a cost issue with those self-publishing in regards to using an editor to make their work sparkle. I've looked at a few books where authors say they used an editor and I'm thinking, "Really?" If their writing isn't up to snuff, they don't realize either way if the editing they paid for is any good, as long as it looks different to them they think the job was done.
An internet search won't help to find an editor. Let's face it, there are just as many people slapping up a website to say they're an editor as there are those who decide over lunch, "Gee, I think I'll become a publisher today," and BOOM---instant publishing company website.
So in the evaluation site, if you come across any books where the indie author has an editor listed, and the book makes the cut, it might be good to list the editor along with the book's other specs (title, author, editor, etc.)
Mod
Yes, you can have too many editors and not all will make a good fit: philosophy of writing, personal preferences, too arrogant, too kind, too hands on, too slow. Sometimes that doesn't matter. You know them well enough to ignore, lob a left curve back, or have a steaming debate that upsets no one because you both are adults and have broad shoulders. If it's the right person! Other times it matters a lot. Confidence is dented, work grinds to a stop, the author loses interest in their own story, because it's not theirs anymore.
The best editors are those who: know their stuff, can seamlessly edit in your voice, know when to back off and when to admit they're wrong. They respect the writer's ability, enjoy the read, and the process. Ultimately they build confidence, ability, and the story is better for their input.
Finding the right editor (paid or volunteer)is a very personal thing. Then you flatter them like crazy so they come back and do it all over again.
Cindy wrote: "I'm reading this thread with great interest. I haven't self published a book in 12 years. It was an 1850s true crime, murder. We sold about 1400 which is good considering it was before the big inte..."You made some great points Cindy. Finding a good editor is as hard as writing the book. I almost went with two different editors [thank god I didn't] before finding someone I could trust /and/ work with. For me it was luck and a bit of good management. My editor is a writer as well and I chose her after reading her books. I wasn't disappointed.
Ceri wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I have one seriously good story editor, one seriously good copy editor, and one eagle-eyed, ridiculously talented proofreader. No circles of opinions outside non-writer beta re..."Spot on!!!!
t'irla ~The BookSlayer~ wrote: "I think Travis mentioned back on page one that books are not going to be successful based on good grammar, spelling and punctuation. Most books are given emotional reviews based on world building,..."A very good point. For me, grammar is the picture frame that holds the portrait together. Sure, some people can produce great picture frames, but if the portrait is that of two stick men :)
While I understand that some readers don't notice bad spelling, grammar, punctuation, or even words that don't mean what the author thinks they mean, these are the very things that will see me closing the sample and not buying the book. I have an editor and a proofreader. I prefer to write for the picky readers, since the un-picky ones aren't (hopefully!) going to mark me off for correctness.
I agree with you, Bridget. I read a lot of Indie books as favors to my fellow Indie authors. Even if the story is great, typos and bad grammar ruin it for me. It's like seeing someone wearing a beautiful dress on the red carpet, but then seeing the zipper is broken and her slip is down around her knees. I was fortunate to find a great editor. She's gold and worth every penny! The best way to find one is through referral from a writing group or local association.
I have had my blog up for less than a month as a proofreader, editor and reviewer, but this question is exactly why I started So, I Read This Book Today. I am a compulsive proofreader. I cannot help myself. Whenever I have found errors in a book I highlight them. If there are enough errors I do one of two things. I either put the book down and walk away, or I send an e-mail to the author gently 'suggesting' that they would benefit from proofreading.
I have made several good friends of authors for pointing out errors, as well as picking up clients this way. I have rarely found that authors are upset that I pointed out errors, but believe it or not, some authors are actually angry with me for bringing problems to their attention.
In my memory I have never written a bad review strictly for errors, but if the author is completely sloppy I often won't write a review at all. Why should I care about an author's work if they don't care enough about it to make sure that their writing is well done?
I belong to NIWA (Northwest Independent Wrier's Association) They have a Seal of Quality program that vets out Indie books for their members. For a $40 fee, the book goes through a muti-point review that includes checking for typos, grammar, plot continuity, and writing quality. If it passes, then you get a seal to put on your book that tells readers the author has done their homework. It is NIWA's mission to raise the level of Indie books to the quality of traditionally published ones. I love this program. It gives me peace of mind to focus on my next book, instead of wringing my hands and fretting about going back and back and back to fix problems.
Bridget wrote: "I prefer to write for the picky readers, since the un-picky ones aren't (hopefully!) going to mark me off for correctness."Yes, exactly!
Christopher wrote: "It's funny you should say this--we are actually working on such an enterprise now. We'll reveal it in July. It's gonna be big, so get ready for a splash with ongoing ripples that we hope will redefine the market trust disparity."I look forward to your offering, Christopher. Something needs to be done in the way of accreditation, whilst remembering that there is only so much of authors' pie to go round and a growing number out there taking their cut. New authors without funds behind them should not be penalized in favour of the better-off or successful.
. . . some reviewers get into Nazi English professor role when reviewing Indies"Oh, don't I know it! I hate that, especially when I have read Stephen King novels that are just as bad as some Indies. Not that I blame Stephen King, but publishers can get really sloppy, which is a shame.
I tend more to send a note to the author to let them know that I found real quality issues with their book before I would ever write a nasty review like some people do. It is a matter of respect in my way of thinking.
