Modern Good Reads discussion
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Quality control for indie authors... is there a way?
Gregor wrote: "The toilet paper should always, always roll off the front of the roll. It's called 'best practice.'"Unless you have a toddler (or cat) in the house. Then, roll off the back to prevent the entire roll from ending up on the floor.
Anyway, to the topic at hand. I have to agree that readers get the final say. Why are we writing? Well, yeah, for most of us, it's because we have to write if we don't want the story (and our brains) leaking out our ears.
But if that's the only reason to write, why go through the hassle of polishing, editing, formatting, and publishing? Just stick the book in a 3-ring binder and shelve it.
Aren't we going through the trouble and/or expense of producing a book because we have something to say? Because we think other people will enjoy reading it? Because we think we can make a living, or at least beer money, selling our stories?
I don't think we're trying to prove our command of the language (whichever one we write in), or how skilled we are at production. The important thing is, do readers enjoy this story well enough to tell other readers about it? You and I might get annoyed at a story where a writer uses "your" when "you're" is correct, but many readers won't even notice.
I try to match or beat the traditional publishers on quality, and I'll go as far as to say the trads cannot beat my latest efforts on eBook formatting, but that's a personal goal. Some readers care about that, but many more do not.
@Larry - Good point regarding the toilet paper problem. And I would like to add that I am one who does care about eBook formatting. Do you happen to have a blog post with some tips and tricks on the topic of formatting? I had a look at your site and didn't see one.
@Richard - Point me to your rant on the subject.
Erich wrote: "You are a Indie writer, you fall into a cauldron of 100000 or more. You consider yourself good or great and you want to sell your books, right? Many of us consider their writing a craft, few indeed..."Sorry, Erich,
Here I absolutely have to disagree with you. When you are selling a book, you are selling a merchandise. People put up money for it (and what's more, invest valuable time to read it -- if only until they decide to toss it). Potential buyers of this merchandise should be informed what this merchandise is like. That's why there are consumer guides. They rate and review cars, TVs, vacuum cleaners, and what have you. Same goes for books. Books should be reviewed not as a service for the author, but as a service for the potential buyer. And the potential buyer deserves honest reviews. (How this is to accomplish is a different story.) If an author does not wish to have his books reviewed, he should say so right with his own description of the book. (This would be the surest way for me NOT to buy a book.) You cannot put out a book (or for that matter any other merchandise) and say that nobody has a right to critisize it (without at least stating this clear -- which, of course, would deter buyers).
I wish authors would understand that reviews are supposed to be a service for the potential buyer, not a sales boost for the author.
And, Erich, you look so manly on your profile picture. Why having such a sissy attitude towards critique? Doesn't fit you. Wait, until I read your books. I'll hit them with whatever reviews I think they deserve. No matter what kind of foul language you are going to throw at me. I can take it. Don't start trembling now. I'll buy your books as soon as I can locate them on Amazon, but won't get around to read them any time soon as I am too busy arguing with you in discussions.
Will anybody, please, educate me what formatting is?Is this where you cut your paragraphs, or is this how the book is uploaded onto Kindle? And why is this such a problem?
Ok, wow. Why are we resorting to name calling? I understand that grammar means a lot to people, but that doesn't mean we should stop being civil to each other. As much as I'm interested in seeing this committee that this group is coming up with, it's not going to solve this problem. It will just be one more resource to go to to find good books. The best method for finding any good product is still word of mouth of people you trust.
Noree wrote: "Ok, wow. Why are we resorting to name calling? I understand that grammar means a lot to people, but that doesn't mean we should stop being civil to each other. As much as I'm interested in seeing..."
Hi, Noree,
You got it wrong. Erich was just quoting another author using foul language in regard to reviewers. (See message 116.) And I was just kidding Erich about it.
Ah, I must have missed that one. :)As, for formatting it's arranging your book to fit a standard like Kindle or Nook. It can be a pain since there are different standards.
What I'm taking away from all these comments is that everyone has a different take on how grammar should be handled in reviews. Since everyone, including reviewers, see the issue of grammar in indies differently, there will never be a solution that satisfies everyone. Some reviewers are picky about commas and other specifics, other's aren't. Can there, therefore, be a standard to which reviewers can peg their grammar comments? If so, how would it work?
I like what you said about formatting. It relates to grammar, etc, in that if you think about how you're putting your story on paper before you start writing, then everything afterwards is easier. If you set your paragraph indentations, etc, before you begin, then they will be consistent throughout and it'll be fairly easy to change the formatting for each e-publisher. And if you think about spelling, etc, then they don't need to be changed either.
As much as I hate to admit it, Smashwords' style guide (though a pain to wade through) does a decent job of explaining how to set up formatting for word docs. Your formatting won't be exciting but you'll be able to convert it easily to epub, mobi, html, pdf, etc. I use Calibre (which is freeware) to convert to epub and mobi) You can also write in Jutoh 1.64 which helps streamline formatting or Scriver (which converts for you), but both have a sharper learning curve.
If you've messed up your formatting you can strip it by copying and pasting your document into notepad and copying and pasting back into word, then resetting all the formatting parameters.
But yes, it is easier to start off with the right formatting then go back and fix it.
Erich wrote: "You are a Indie writer, you fall into a cauldron of 100000 or more. You consider yourself good or great and you want to sell your books, right? Many of us consider their writing a craft, few indeed..."Erich, reread my post. You've missed several of my points.
Also, there's a difference between writing and publishing. Beginning writers shouldn't publish unless they are Wunderkinds. I certainly was not. I wrote somewhere in the neighborhood of five novels before I published the sixth. I've dusted off one of the old ones I found in storage recently. I think it's going to be a kick to read it and it'll probably make me blush! I even have doubts about the sixth really being good enough, sometimes.
Beginning writers have the right to publish their very first short story, of course, and I'm not talking about taking that right away (one of the points you missed). I'm saying, if they are serious about becoming great writers, they should write, write, write, and write some more and get feedback and take classes and read manuals and join writing groups and write, write, write, and WAIT to publish until they've learned the craft.
People who do care about quality will peruse indie novels and give up on them based on 90% of what's out there. That's bad for those of us who have worked hard to hone our craft.
ETA: Am I one of the posters allegedly name-calling and using foul language? Because I thought Erich was referring to me in his post (maybe I'm wrong) and Lilo pointed to his post referring to mine... I'm getting a headache.
Florence, I have a standard about grammar would mean having a standard at all about reviewing. Some people don't care as much about grammar and it would be forcing them to look for something they don't normally do.I didn't have that much issue with formatting. I copy and pasted to notepad, then I used Sigil and Calibre to do the formatting. Doing it for different places like Smashwords and Createspace was the tedious part.
Sohphia, I was referring to you. It was more Lilo's post, but she explained it was a joke. There was no real foul language that I saw, though.
Oy! Mod here...settle down!
Watch those 'f' bombs, please. Substitutes are fine, but outright cussing is a trifle jarring to the discussion.
Discuss grammar and reviews in civilized terms only, please. I understand that reviews can seem hurtful and intensely personal, but kindly do not redirect feelings of frustration into this group. Whatever your personal thoughts about publishing and formatting (and I have my own as well) this is a discussion group. Kindly restrain your tempers when possible.
Michelle Browne
Science Fiction Moderator
Watch those 'f' bombs, please. Substitutes are fine, but outright cussing is a trifle jarring to the discussion.
Discuss grammar and reviews in civilized terms only, please. I understand that reviews can seem hurtful and intensely personal, but kindly do not redirect feelings of frustration into this group. Whatever your personal thoughts about publishing and formatting (and I have my own as well) this is a discussion group. Kindly restrain your tempers when possible.
Michelle Browne
Science Fiction Moderator
“A recent survey issued by Scholastic, the 2010 Kids & Family Reading Report, found that 43 percent of the children ages 9-11 believe the most important outcome of reading books for fun is to open up the imagination. 62 percent of the same demographic say they read books for fun “to be inspired by storylines and characters.” For a group whose numbers were clearly dwindling in the 1990s, it is not surprising that the release of an incredibly imaginative story coincided with a dramatic revival or readership.”-- McSweenys’s Internet TendencyI’ve been thinking about this a lot lately and how it translates into Indie publishing and books.
What makes a book good? Being grammatically and technically correct? Good story? Good characters? All of the above?
I’ve read grammatically correct books that bored the snot out of me. *cough* Alas, Babylon *cough*
Yet, the more I write the more grammar becomes important to me. Trying to read a poorly written book is like watching a fuzzy TV show. Can’t. Do. It.
Does that make me pretentious? Picky? Discerning? Maybe…
I don’t know anymore because I’ve realized that not everyone will (or want to) read at my level. The average reading level of America is around 4th-6th grade. On one hand I think that’s sad, and would encourage people to improve themselves. But what if they can’t? What if they have difficulty reading for various, valid reasons, but want to read. What if they want to escape into a good story, but learning disabilities or physical ailments make it too stressful or even impossible? Everyone is equal in the eyes of the law and God, but to say that everyone is equally blessed with health or ability is ignorant or ignoring the realities of the world.
So what if all the books that had been previously Trad. published were JUST TOO HARD FOR SOME PEOPLE? What if that were true? What then?
And now, now we have this new age when anyone can publish. At first glance many scream TRAVESTY. What will the unwashed masses do to the literary world? *gasp!* But reading numbers throughout the public are up for the first time in decades. Why is that?
Maybe because some people now have stories to read at a level that they can comprehend. I’m not saying this to be cruel or hurtful, but to be honest. I read and retain information at a very high level. So high that when I used to write medical papers, my boss had to ask me to ‘dumb them down’ since I was writing for paramedics not doctors. So high that before my health was screwed up a bit by miscarriages, I had almost a perfect memory. I could remember the most minute things. I still write all my stories without outlines. Straight from my head to computer. And for those of you who’ve read my work, you know how complex my plots tends to be.
But the reality is not everyone reads at the same level. Not everyone is blessed (and cursed- LOL!) with my ability. Should I expect those who, for whatever reason, cannot read at my level to only be able to purchase college level novels? Or even high school? Should we, as Indie authors, judge those ‘lesser’ than us because their writing or reading ability is lesser? I’m not talking about reviewing books. I’m talking about this growing trend of us vs them in the Indie community.The authors who write good books vs the authors who write bad books. Who is to be the judge and executioner? You? Me?
It’s not a job I want.
So what about those with more difficult issues but with a desire to read? Shouldn’t they get to have good stories to enjoy? Just because I don’t care to read them doesn’t mean someone else won’t love them.
Shouldn’t we be embracing all levels of writing, no matter how amateur they appear because they may just find their audience? Isn’t the true beauty the fact that people are expressing themselves and others are discovering them? That more people at every level are finally, FINALLY reading.
Maybe that’s why more people are reading…
Gregor wrote: "@Erich - The toilet paper should always, always roll off the front of the roll. It's called 'best practice.' This is not a small matter!"Totally agree!
[Additional text:] But then again, we don't have a dog or a toddler (i.e. I can see the wisdom of both sides).
Gregor wrote: "@Lilo - The only time I place punctuation outside of quotation marks is when placing them inside could cause confusion. And I'll only do this when writing an e-mail with written instructions or tec..."Gregor wrote: "@Lilo - The only time I place punctuation outside of quotation marks is when placing them inside could cause confusion. And I'll only do this when writing an e-mail with written instructions or tec..."
Thank you, Gregor! I agree with you that it is best to follow the rules and not let anybody think you are a sloppy writer. Nevertheless, this punctuation rule makes my hair stand up and curl. I always thought only Germans followed insane rules. It really surprises me that millions of American, British, and Canadian writers are also willing to follow rules that don't make any sense. And that's a bit scary, too. Well, placing commas at odd spots, at least, doesn't kill people.
I've spent the morning reading through people's comments here and I'm just going to dive right in. Firstly, can I say that I can sympathise with both side of the argument (or rather all the points between the poles). I'm not trying to get up into anyone's grill here.Secondly, I am what some may choose to refer to as a "grammar nazi" (some colleagues have). I prefer "grammar guardian," but it hasn't caught on. I work in a state government agency and sizeable chunk of my working week will often be taken up making other people's writing clear and readable for the public. That makes me an editor. This is what editors do. Sometimes I'll read something and it gets a big tick and pushed on to the next stage, sometimes it will get a comma added or a dash replaced with a semicolon. Occasionally a letter or briefing will be returned to the writer with so much red ink it looks like somebody ritually sacrificed a chicken. It's no coincidence that the same people tend to get their work returned.
I'm tough on writers in my job because anything that goes out the door reflects on my employer (the government) as a whole. Joe Public already thinks there are too many of us and that were all terribly overpaid for what we do (which, to his mind; to produce substandard, unclear information would only confirm that opinion.
Outside of work, I proofread or edit friends' and acquaintances' writing as well. I have edited theses, articles, fiction and poetry. You bring a different critical eye to this kind of work. In (for want of a better word) technical writing, you're looking for the most clear and concise way to express an idea. A lot of this involves the correct application of grammar; punctuation helps to frame your thoughts and deliver your message in a coherent and easily-understandable manner. In creative writing, regardless of whether it's fiction or non-fiction, the author is often trying to convey several ideas simultaneously, and so ideally correct grammar is not the only consideration.
I think there's a danger in declaring that poor grammar is the only thing holding back a story from being as good as it can be. As often as not, it can be something as simple as the author not expressing an idea as clearly as it needs to be for the reader to assimilate it. The writer know's that the signet ring the heroine wears to honour the memory of her father is the key to opening the enchanted vault and securing the Sword of the Five Kings which, it has been prophesied, will unite the Splintered Kingdoms once more, but if he's neglected to foreshadow this earlier in the text, and only introduces it when the heroine and her trusty companion are confronted with the vault door, with the threat of angry hobgoblins only minutes behind them in the underground passages, it's going to seem to the reader like a panicked afterthought to tie up a loose plot-thread, i.e. poor story construction.
Okay, that's an overwrought example, but my point is this - you write a story: you put your heart and soul into your work; it's precious to you, which is understandable. It is as complete as you feel you can make it. When you're this close to your manuscript you can't be objective about it. I know I can't. This is the time you need to let go of it and hand it over to someone else to look at. I'm not talking about a professional editor (although there certainly is a place for them in the process).
Find a friend - they don't have to be a writer, but they do have to be a reader - someone who can balance objectiveness and compassion, someone who can assess and correct and suggest changes without judgement (basically, someone you trust). That's the next person who should read your story.
And they have to want to do it; if someone is looking at your 600-page epic as a favour, they're going to sour on the experience by page 120. I say it should be a friend because family members might be too afraid of hurting your feelings to give you a completely honest assessment (or they might take the opportunity to unfairly get back at you for some perceived sleight - either way, it's fraught). For your part, you're going to have to be willing to hear or read their criticism as willingly as their praise, and to thank them for it.
Then take the time to go over all of their comments think about their suggestions. Some you'll probably accept because it's right but you didn't see it before. Others you'll probably reject on stylistic grounds, because it would cease to sound like you. That's OK. It's fine to not agree with every comment or suggestion your first reader makes, but you should consider each one carefully and have a reason for accepting or rejecting it. That's how you show your first reader the respect she deserves and that's how you begin to be able to see your work through fresh eyes.
I don't trust myself to get it right. I have three friends who are unbelievably patient and gracious with their time who I go to for a first reading. If I'm writing a story I go to one friend (a buddy from university) who doesn't write, but reads voraciously; poetry I take to another student friend who is also a poet, and speech-writer. Anything less creative I take to an old colleague. Each one of these people I trust whole-heartedly to give me their honest criticism (and to tell me when I've got something especially right).
Find your first reader, see your story through their eyes, spend some time with it, then think about the other steps. If nothing else, the experience will increase your confidence in your own work and highlight what you might need to work on (like run-on sentences).
Jonathon wrote: "I've spent the morning reading through people's comments here and I'm just going to dive right in. Firstly, can I say that I can sympathise with both side of the argument (or rather all the points ..."I completely agree with this. I have three readers myself. My boyfriend is my first. He's supportive enough to be truthful with me on what doesn't work. Then I have a writing critique partner and another friend who is an avid reader.
Jacqueline wrote: "“A recent survey issued by Scholastic, the 2010 Kids & Family Reading Report, found that 43 percent of the children ages 9-11 believe the most important outcome of reading books for fun is to open ..."Addressing one small part of your post, I want to say that when I review books, I judge where I'll rate them according to their subgenre. A Harlequin romance is not at the same "intellectual" level as a biography, but I'm not assessing it against biographies or sci-fi or even romances in a different subgenre. I'm judging that Harlequin romance against other Harlequin-level romances or sci-fi against other sci-fi or historical mysteries against...you get the picture.
As for the grammar. I hit that in every genre I read. Sure books take on a flight into another world, but on a subconscious level they are educating the reader in sentence structure, grammar, vocabulary. And sub par doesn't cut it with me.
I see no end to "The Rapture of the Trunk Novel." I think it's here to stay. Yes, some Indie authors who are now uploading sloppy work will tire of publishing eventually when there is no longer any motivation to do so (sales). But there will always be new Indie authors cropping up to take their places, uploading even more works of low quality.The Indie authors who are serious about their craft will, too, continue to publish and I think their work will eventually be found if they persist. Audiences will find them the same way they find traditionally published books; through word-of-mouth, reviewers they trust. They will apply their personal filters to books as they're presented on the various online stores. A cover will grab their attention. The synopsis will pull them in deeper. The free sample will pull them in deeper still. A reader review might seal the deal. And they'll buy. If the book grips them, they'll buy another book by the author. It takes work, time, patience, and luck to build an audience.
A seal of approval or an award for a clean, polished product seems redundant, as I expect the author to have spent the necessary time to make his book the best it can be before unleashing it onto the world. The book's description, cover, and sample will typically let me know that the author hasn't spent the time to create a professional product. In a few seconds I will decide not to buy and move on to something else, using the same process I use when choosing the next traditionally published book to add to my to-read list.
Mod
And yet many don't. If there were a site that fairly recommends books because, through critical examination, the staff has evaluated all the factors that can result in a poor reading experience and found them to be free of those, and found the entire reading experience to be of the highest quality, would that not be a helpful and time saving site? Maybe it wouldn't have the time or resources to evaluate hundreds of thousands of indie books, but whatever it were capable of pouring through and reporting on could be considered recommendations of the best they have gone through up to that point. No matter how many books the staff can go through at once, the site would still be helpful, especially by reporting whatever it can across all the major genres.
The way I see it, books are not temporary, and neither are critical evaluations of them. Once ten are done, another ten can be done, and so on. Eventually, such a site would amass a pretty thorough library of books the staff has rigorously evaluated for quality, and therefore recommended--with a seal. In time, that seal could come to represent an ideal, and once it does the seal would be an indicator of quality for any book displaying it.
Don't think of it in terms of an instant fix but an ideal that has the potential of qualifying good books for readers as the future unfolds. I feel it's an important path, not an evolutionary leap in indie literature recognition. As a group sets out on that path, others will follow setting similar standards and providing similar recommendations for quality craftsmanship of indie publications. It's about the path, not the immediate results. It'll take time, but the results will be worth the endeavor.
This is the site we have planned--not a review site but a quality evaluation and reporting site. A seal will not be for sale, nor will it be an exhibition of review taste, but a mark of quality that the staff will stand behind in it's recommendation report. We will not recommend books that don't rival traditional publishing standards, so you'll find no report on books that fall short of the high quality standards we intend to set. There are plenty of sites that evaluate books and tell you what not to read along with what they like. That will not be the case with our site. You'll only find the best we can find. That's what we feel will make it unique.
Gregor wrote: "@Larry - Good point regarding the toilet paper problem. And I would like to add that I am one who does care about eBook formatting. Do you happen to have a blog post with some tips and tricks on th..."I'm working on one, Gregor. Funny how things work out, sometimes. My dayjob is technical writing, and we're looking at providing eBook editions of documentation for use on phones or tablets. So the research I'm doing right now, both during and after work, applies to both the work writing and the fiction writing. (Ironically, the Kindle Formatting Guidelines is the best writer-oriented resource I've found so far.) But I can provide the abbreviated version here.
The first principle is: Principle of Least Surprise. Each eReader (or app) sets its own defaults, and those must be respected. People reading eBooks expect to be able to set the text size and typeface, and you need a very good reason to override their selections.
Second principle: KISS (Keep It Simple, Silly!). I've written posts in this thread longer than the CSS I use for formatting books right now. Body text is the default style, so regular paragraphs have no class attributes. Style attributes are RIGHT OUT—if what you're doing to the text is important enough to be different from the default, you need to define it in your style sheet. If you come up with a better way to present that later on, you won't have to hunt down every single instance of it. Consistency may be the hobgoblin of little minds, but it goes a long way toward making your eBook better.
I use Sigil to set up my eBook, make sure it validates, then use Kindle Previewer to transform to MOBI. Scrivener does a good job, but leaves a small amount of clutter in its output. Calibre adds clutter, in my experience. I filed a bug report about that, and it was rejected, so I use it only as a personal catalog/database.
@Christopher - I'll be happy to check out this site, once it goes live. I believe you said that would be at some point in July? Seems somewhat like a Rottentomatoes.com for Indie books. But I'd imagine no one would even consider reviewing a book with a horrible, typo-ridden book description. So, you'd likely not see many books with a 0% percent rating.
@Larry - I use Scrivener and Calibre now. But it seems as if I'll have to add Sigil to my list of apps, as I've been hearing quite a bit about it lately. Thanks.
Gregor wrote: "@Larry - I use Scrivener and Calibre now. But it seems as if I'll have to add Sigil to my list of apps, as I've been hearing quite a bit about it lately. Thanks."No problem! I'm a middle-aged geek, so I'm also pretty comfortable with scripting and command-line tools. That means I can automate much of the cleanup (like "minutes instead of hours" automate).
Mod
Just the opposite. As I mentioned, we would only present what we found to be high quality indie work. Rotten Tomatoes presents what they find to be the worst, as well. I think that would confuse the user that wants a site to find only quality books, not a comparison site they still have to spend excess time sorting through. In other words, if it's there, we think it has enough quality to recommend it. If it's not there, we either haven't gotten to it or we're not going to recommend it. Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments.
@Christopher - My post wasn't particularly clear. We're on the same page.
@Larry - Let me know when your blog on formatting is posted. I'll be especially keen to read it, should it cover the topic of automation.
Christopher wrote: "Hi, Sophia,Your discussion brings up a valid disparity between the market's perception of the quality of traditionally published books and indie-published books. The fundamental reason continues..."
Some of the comments on this thread sent chills to places no chills should go. Like everyone else, I have read some very poor quality indie writing in the past, but thanks to sites such as Indies Unlimited and thebookcast.com I haven't read a stinker in a long time.
There are some great indie authors out there, and as Chris wrote, reputable book blogs are the best ways to find them. There are also websites like the Indiependents which review indie books for grammar, punctuation, spelling and general readability.
As an indie author myself, I appeal to all of you to give indies a second chance! Once you find some good indie authors you will discover that most of the innovation and passion in modern writing is happening at the $2.99 mark.
Patricia wrote: "Lilo wrote: "I am new at Modern Good Reads and have just stumbled upon your indie quality discussion. It has hit a nerve with me.I think, however, we should clearly separate grammar/punctuation (..."
Thank you, Patricia. It helps to learn how other reviewers handle this problem. It still doesn't seem like the ultimate solution. There probably is no ultimate solution. Right now I neither find time to read, nor to write, nor to review. Thus, I have some time to digest this problem
@A.C. - Thanks for the site recommendations.
Gregor wrote: "@A.C. - Thanks for the site recommendations."I hope you find something you like. :)
It's all been said already, so there is nothing new I can add to this discussion, except for one thing. Some badly edited, sloppily spelt, chronically plotted, excreble books have been very successful (see 50 Shades of Grey) but that doesn't mean anyone else's will be. If it isn't fit for purpose, don't send it out there. I too have read som terrible indie authors, but also some very good ones. People will make up there own minds and separate the wheat from the chaff. I also would welcome the opportunity of having a "seal of approval" although I would not want to pay for it, on the basis that if you part with money, it gives any seal less integrity. I want to earn my credits and my good reviews, as they are the ones that are worth the most.
Funnily enough, I think the bad editing of 50 Shades contributed to its success. The number of people writing scathing articles about it bought it more media attention, and people just had to see what everyone was talking about. Obviously it was more than that, but I do think that it added to the hype surrounding the book.
You're right. The success of the book owed more to hype than good (or awful!) writing!
Noree wrote: "Sohphia, I was referring to you. It was more Lilo's post, but she explained it was a joke. There was no real foul language that I saw, though. "Noree, I'm genuinely confused. Can you please point me to where I name-called or was otherwise disrespectful? I'd like to clarify it because that was never my intent. I do feel passionately about this subject, but I'm not in the business of insulting people. :)
My husband is a former technical writer. I write fiction. Sometimes we compare the two types of writing and I am always amazed at the difference!
Sophia wrote: "Noree wrote: "Sohphia, I was referring to you. It was more Lilo's post, but she explained it was a joke. There was no real foul language that I saw, though. "Noree, I'm genuinely confused. Can yo..." Oh, sorry, there was a typo. I was not referring to you. That was suppose to be "wasn't."
Jayne wrote: "It's all been said already, so there is nothing new I can add to this discussion, except for one thing. Some badly edited, sloppily spelt, chronically plotted, excreble books have been very succes..."Ditto. A seal of quality has to be earned, not bought.
Florence wrote: "My husband is a former technical writer. I write fiction. Sometimes we compare the two types of writing and I am always amazed at the difference!"Oh yes. I spent 10 years writing user manuals for software products. It took me another 10 years to unlearn that mindset. Tech writing informs. Fiction persuades. Very, very different techniques.
Okay, thanks, Noree!Thought I'd share this: "Are You Ready to Be Published" a blog post by Rebecca Cuadra George. http://southernwritersmagazine.blogsp...
Just been doing some promotion work, and to some people, 'indy' is almost a swear word when it comes to self-publishing. In my experience, most indy publishers try their best to act like a pro, but there seems to be a hardcore group that will publish anything and still be amazed when their error ridden books don't rake in the millions.
Sophia wrote: "Okay, thanks, Noree!Thought I'd share this: "Are You Read to Be Published" a blog post by Rebecca Cuadra George. http://southernwritersmagazine.blogsp...-..."
Thanks for the article Sophia, I enjoyed it. It shows that editing and writing style may not be the only things writers are lacking.
I tried this link twice and got a 404.
Let me amend this. Don't click the quoted link immediately above. Go back two messages and click that one.
I'm currently reading a book that is not edited well. A good reads member brought me to this post :)
I have to say I was really feeling like a bully for wanting to be honest about the book. But perhaps being critical of the book could improve a book not edited well?
I have to say I was really feeling like a bully for wanting to be honest about the book. But perhaps being critical of the book could improve a book not edited well?
You'll be doing them a favor. Once a book is out there, it's out there warts and all, which can be damaging to one's reputation.
Guinevere wrote: "I have to say I was really feeling like a bully for wanting to be honest about the book. But perhaps being critical of the book could improve a book not edited well? "I really think if you're going to give a book a less than stellar review, you owe it to the author and the folk who actually enjoyed it to state clearly and without undue prejudice what it was that compelled you to give the story a low rating.
It's OK not to like a book, but if you're going to bag it, you need to be able to back that up. I've seen a lot of lazy reviewing on Amazon (here as well, but thankfully a lot less often). I generally won't post a review of something unless I'm willing to give it at least three stars. There used to be a guy on TV here, Peter Thompson, who used to do film reviews on a Sunday morning magazine program. Every review he did was generally positive, if not ecstatic. Somebody called him on this, basically accusing him of being soft on movies. Thompson said that (paraphrasing here), on a weekly TV program he got to give about 45 reviews a year, while he watched about 300 films a year; why would he waste any of those reviewing opportunities talking about a movie he didn't think people should go and see?
In think anyone who is serious about writing will always welcome honest feedback. They may not be thrilled about it, but they will listen and consider it, and make up their own mind.
How we read Indie vs Trad