Modern Good Reads discussion
AUTHOR ZONE
>
Quality control for indie authors... is there a way?
I personally have read many, many Indy authors/books, and have found diamonds in the rough and books so bad I almost hurled. I don't think awards will really 'do' anything because there isn't much behind them... it's like a Kindergarten class giving an award to EVERY kid. It becomes useless and pointless.I should also specify that I'm not a grammar Nazi, in fact I am quite sure there are errors that I've run across even in big publishing house books. No as often, mind you, as in Indy, but I generally don't pay attention to that unless it's SO bad I cannot enjoy the book.
I guess between recommendations from fellow readers, reviews, and just a 'gut' feeling about books- I've managed to find many, many books that I adored. Honestly, maybe it's just because I'm not hung-up on grammar and spelling, but if I was thinking of reading an Indy book and it had note of some award for grammar... it would not sway my decision in either direction.
This is just my $0.02... I'm sure there are tons of readers out there that would love some sort of award system like that. I just consider reviews to serve the same function without handing out accolades just for good grammar even if the story blows.
One way to go about this would be to create some sort of seal with an accreditation panel, such as "Modern Good Reads Approved Self Published Author" ; You would then need to get a group of volunteers who could accept submissions from various genres and decide who gets approved or not. You would need to set up a series of guidelines for the judges, a submission process, an appeal process, the actual accreditation proccess, etc.You could charge a fee like some do, but I for one am against this. I no longer trust any kind of accreditation seal/mark that can be bought. It should be 100% earned.
I would kill for an accreditation seal. I am a devoted writer and an editor. The poor editing on many books sickens me.
Well, Indiereader has their contest every year that costs $150 and comes with a pro. review. If you get a 4/5 star you also get an Indie Approval Reader seal. I missed it by one star this year. The reviewer didn't like how much my soldiers cussed. Funny. They're affiliated with US Today. I got 3 stars with my first submission which equals 'A good book worth the read' for them.My next submission I'm hoping to hit that forth star!!!!
Jacqueline wrote: " I missed it by one star this year. The reviewer didn't like how much my soldiers cussed. Funny."Is that why you missed out though? Simply because the reviewer you happened to get didn't like the Style of your book? Cussing is a style, not grammar. It would be like someone who is not into Erotica reading/reviewing an Erotica book and deciding if it should get a seal or not.. Style cannot and should not be put into the same accreditation category as accreditation for quality in terms of editing/grammar.
I'm with you. Unfortunately, indie authors often don't have the resources to pay editors or the know-how to find other helpers (such as goodreads groups). I am fortunate to have had editors for my work so far, but most small press and self-published books just don't get the scrutiny they should. That's no excuse for mistakes - if it takes us indie guys and gals more time to get it right, then that's the time we need to put in.
Mod
Your discussion brings up a valid disparity between the market's perception of the quality of traditionally published books and indie-published books. The fundamental reason continues to fuel the expansion of that disparity as well: indie-published (including self) books have no gatekeepers--no withholding of admission to publication and distribution for lack of quality. There never will be such so long as distributors have no check for quality prior to placement.
What readers can do, in my opinion, to qualify a self- or indie-published book's adherence to quality craftsmanship standards, is to find those books through the recommendations of highly regarded book blogs. There aren't enough of them, and the few that keep the highest standards are consistently overwhelmed to the point that they can't stay current for the most part, but they are out there.
In answer to your question, I believe the future of quality trust will grow in a sort of grass roots way, rather than in an industry lead way. It will be those blogs, any that maintain very high standards and are unaffected by monetary persuasion, that will take the place of traditional gatekeepers. Individuals, or groups, who have the means to organize and promote that kind of solid quality blog, and fully realize a strong following of it, will find themselves with the power to effect standards of quality, and will hence change the face of indie acceptance in the future. Something to think about. Take care,
Chris Shields,
Modern Good Reads
Founder, Group Moderator
Well, that's what she mentioned in the review, oh and that she didn't like the drama of the main characters' breaking up like teenagers and a few typos(been fixed). Which even I had other character in the book not liking that because the character were being stupid during their breakup. That was the whole point. The editor had emailed me last Nov and said that she rearranged how she structured the review so the positive was at the end rather than the negatives.
I got the feeling that the reviewer was a newer one. And this was with my first cover, before I upgraded when I got some $$.
It's all good.
In answer to your question, I believe the future of quality trust will grow in a sort of grass roots way, rather than in an industry lead way. It will be those blogs, any that maintain very high standards and are unaffected by monetary persuasion, that will take the place of traditional gatekeepers. Individuals, or groups, that have the means to organize and promote that kind of solid quality blog, and fully realize a strong following of it, will find themselves with the power to effect standards of quality, and will hence change the face of indie acceptance in the future. Something to think about. I completely agree!
That's why I don't shy away from giving honest reviews, though not every day. Just here and there. I also help a lot of authors out behind the scenes and ask for help when I need it. If I just give out 4 and 5 to keep the peace or worse, avoid the whole issue for fear of retaliation, then what standard am I setting? For others? For myself? My integrity crosses all lines, my writing, my publishing, my reading and my reviewing.
I am the same at all levels of my profession. I take it very seriously.
Too seriously if you ask my husband. LOL!
Can't say I'm a big fan of bringing in more gatekeepers and red tape. Make sure you have a professional website that readers can check out for a sample of your work. State somewhere your credentials and that your books have been professionally edited.
We live in a buyer-beware society. I buy products all the time that don't quite live up to my expectations. And I've paid good money for traditional award-winning novels that I absolutely couldn't finish.
Darlene
www.threewritersofromance.com
Mod
It's funny you should say this--we are actually working on such an enterprise now. We'll reveal it in July. It's gonna be big, so get ready for a splash with ongoing ripples that we hope will redefine the market trust disparity.
Mod
Beyond style, grammar, and punctuation, the real considerations are genre and overall entertain-ability.
If a reviewer steps outside their genre, it is often with consequence for the book being reviewed.
And the basic question that any fiction review should address: Was it entertaining?
So many times these days when a reviewer looks at self-pubbed novels they instantly become English teachers.
Take a look at Kirkus reviews. They talk plot, characters, how the novel fits within its genre cross-genres, and they always talk about the enjoyable/refreshing/interesting aspects of the novel.
They don't pick books apart for grammar, exposition, plot holes, typos or other such things. (I am talking Kirkus Indie reviews).
Though we all know that a portion of self-pubbed novels suffer from those issues, just because its a self-pubbed work doesn't mean we must go into grammar Nazi English professor mode when reading/reviewing the book.
Travis wrote: "Though we all know that a portioin of self-pubbed novels suffer from those issues, just because its a self-pubbed work doesn't mean we must go into grammar Nazi English professor mode when reading/reviewing the book. "Completely agree. In fact, I have stopped reading/reviewing books with editing in mind unless it is just completely unreadable. Also, to be honest, the majority of non-writing readers:
a) don't care about grammar unless it's so bad it's unreadable
b) don't care what seals a book has. They buy a book because they like the premise, like the cover, like the reviews or have read recommendations.
The majority of awards, seals, contests, etc are for Writers so they have something shiny to stick on their cover, not for readers.
Don't get me started on Kirkus. They are one of the accreditation groups I no longer trust.
Don't get me started on Kirkus. They are one of the accreditation groups I no longer trust. Interesting. Tell me more, C.E. Though you can PM if you prefer. I've never dealt with them, though I've considered it. Mainly because the reviews read like 95% summery and 5% opinion. If I wanted a summery I'd read the blurb. I sure as heck don't need to pay that much for a blurb.
So...investing in Kirkus would be unwise? I worry that I will get a socially conservative reader who throws tantrums about content in my book. ABNA is unreliable too.
I know I feel satisfied with Indiereader and the contest result are next month. Though I don't expect to win this first time. Wasn't really trying for that.
Mod
I talked with one lady who self/Indie pubbed several romance novels, and she didn't feel like the $400 spent on the Kirkus review was worth it. But she did feel like it constituted a form of ongoing promo to be able to say "I have a Kirkus review".
Me, I doubt I will chase Kirkus. Not so sure they can handle what I write.
Besides, I can think of alot of things that will directly impact my sales for $400, like ads on Goodreads or a Bookbub promotional.
Travis wrote: "C.E. wrote: " Style cannot and should not be put into the same accreditation category as accreditation for quality in terms of editing/grammar. "Beyond style, grammar, and punctuation, the real c..."
It's funny you mention that, Travis. I think the worst review I have received was based on a scale of Harry Potters. I write dark, adult fiction - nothing YA fantasy. Still, the reviewer and reviewer were fair - just not her thing.
I do notice that some reviewers get into Nazi English professor role when reviewing Indies. When I review Indies, I only mention grammar if it takes away from my ability to enjoy the novel, which it obviously can. But even the biggest books out there are not error free.
$400 is a great deal of cash to pay for a review to which most don't pay attention to, except perhaps libraries. Kirkus has also come under fire recently for the types of books they have let through / given rave reviews for. There are numerous threads on various writers / readers forums I have come across. I guess I just have less faith in something for which an author has shelled out that kind of cash for than I do an award that was earned. Then again, I also tried to remember the last book I read because it had a shiny seal or award, and I think I was in Middle School and it was The Giver.
As a reader, I consume books based on: 1)the excerpt I can read. 2) the genre 3) if I like the concept or not 4) peer reviews/recommendations
Christopher wrote: It's funny you should say this--we are actually working on such an enterprise now. We'll reveal it in July. It's gonna be big, so get ready for a splash with ongoing ripples that we hope will redefine the market trust disparity
Didn't you get the memo about my psychic abilities? Let me know you require any assistance with that or need any genre panelists.
Mod
I feel like we have stolen a perfectly good blog post in this discussion. Actually I was thinking of reblogging your rant.
A blogworthy rant if ever there was. Though a little on the negative side, I can't really disagree or fault you for anything you've said.
Its all true.
And of course, I, like most Indies, am aiming to shoot a few diamonds out of the sewage spraying firehose.
:)
Mod
It is funny, I put more research into reviews and recommendations in the indie side, or buy from an author I already know and like the style of...
I have to say, with the prices of books in the indie arena, it is where i do most of my reading these days... You can get a GREAT book for cheap, or walk away from a bad book without too much regret.
Bottom line... I look at the reviews I trust, the people I trust, the blogs I follow, and what the recommendations point to, and go from there.
Hi,I just posted a rather long comment on the subject reviews, but it didn't appear on this page. So I'll be trying again to post it.--Lilo
I am new at Modern Good Reads and have just stumbled upon your indie quality discussion. It has hit a nerve with me.I think, however, we should clearly separate grammar/punctuation (and possibly style) from content. A beautifully edited book (edited by a profi) with a moronic plot and unbelievable characters is still literary trash and a disgrace for all indie authors who get thrown into the same pot with these bad authors.
There would actually be a remedy for this: a quality seal AND HONEST REVIEWS!
When reviewers are paid by the author or otherwise affiliated with the author (such as exchanging adulating reviews with other authors), they rarely rate a book less than 5 stars and have been known to receive hate mail for giving 4 stars.
When authors mobilize whole church groups or animal rescue organisations they belong to and have them sign up with Goodreads to shower them with lavish praise and 5-star ratings, what is the whole review and rating system worth?
Collecting (or exchanging) adulations and suppressing any honest review defies the purpose of reviews.
Without (honest and well substantiated) bad (even acid) reviews as contrast, excellent reviews are not worth a dime. Actually, it's the entertaining, acid reviews that get the readers to read more reviews. Who wants to read boring bla bla (usually renarrating the contents of the book), splashing praise and 5-star ratings for no solid reason? I don't.
Why not have quality seal reviews by volontary reviewers who are neither paid, nor otherwise rewarded, nor affiliated with the authors in any way? (Friends NOT allowed!) The books should be books the reviewers read anyway; thus, reading should not be a burden to them.
By the way, a bad review does not always affect sales in a negative way. It can even promote sales. Even bad publicity is publicity. (And an entertaining, acid review causes publicity.) While the verdict that a book is boring might, indeed, equal a death sentence for a book, a ridiculing, acid review may increase sales as there are always readers out there who will buy this book out of curiosity or contradictoriness. And if a book becomes a bestseller on account of a smashing review, that's fine. (Only the reader cannot complain afterwards and say that he wasn't forewarned.)
If you want to see what I mean with an acid review, please search for the book "Somewhat Saved" by (self-proclaimed National Bestselling Author) Pat D'Orge-Walker, and read my review. I have nothing against this author (even sympathize with her because of her sad past she mentions in the foreword), but the book is really the worst book I have read in my life, and I would have preferred to have spent the many hours it took me to read it for a better cause. (I should have tossed the book but was fascinated. Just simply couldn't believe that a book that bad could get worse still while I read on.)
If my English is not 5 stars, please excuse. I am an ESL writer. (That's why I have hired an editor to edit my book which is presently in the making.)
It would be wonderful if Modern Good Reads could come up with a quality seal review system. I would gladly volonteer to review books I read anyway.
Please don't think that I am just hunting for books that give me reason to write acid reviews. I really don't. Actually, I have an honest 5-star, all praise, review in the making. (It is for a British high society satire.) I won't mention the title because the author is one of my Goodreads friends, and someone here in this group might think it is a courtesy review.
Reviews for friends really are a problem. Most of my friends hope that I'll write them a review -- a good one, of course -- and I don't mind doing so where the book deserves it; actually I am glad to. But what do I do with those friends, whose books I could only rate 3 stars (or even less) while retaining a good conscience? I really don't wish to hurt anybody. I could refuse to write any reviews for friends. But what happens then to those books that I would love to rate 5 stars and shower with praise because it's my honest opinion? They would miss out. Still, a review for a friend poses a conflict of interest in many cases. Does anybody have an answer for this?
This is a good topic. I've never believed in a seal or other accredited schemes as in my experience it becomes a clique and can suffer from snobbery. In my view, word of mouth recommendations and/or reviews are still the best way forward.
This is still an awesome thread! Everyone had such insightful comments. I'm so tired of people afraid to hurt everytone's feelings. Granted, when I write a negative review, I do so in a way that's a professional as possible, but snark does come through. I've actually gotten several likes on my reviews. I've had negative reviews given to me with likes on them. It all evens out in the end. I'm so sick of this PC world telling us we have to going out of our way to be super-duper nice to everyone. I'm not talking about being respectful or professional. I'm talking about the concept of everyone is special and wonderful and talented, etc, etc. If that's so, then doesn't it all even out again and we're all the same?
Point is, we can't be afraid of talking about the bad. We can't be afraid of talking about the obvious problems, otherwise how will they ever get fixed?
I'm glad there's authors and reader here willing to honestly discuss these things because it is a problem and we need to address it if we want legitimacy in this new world.
The difficulty lies in whose views would be respected by a wide audience. In traditional publishing, professional reviewers are paid because they have developed a reputation for giving a fair, informed opinion, with nothing to gain or lose by their honesty. They review books in their specific genres. They are not fellow writers. They are paid by third parties like journals and newspapers, who also have no vested interest in how well a book sells. We have to find a new model that mimics this: informed reviewers with no stakes in the game. Professionals, who should expect at least minimal payment for their time.
Would indie READERS ever be willing to pay to have access to quality reviews? Then reviewers' interests would be slanted in the appropriate direction. I think that's where the discussion needs to start.
I would pay (modestly) for such a service if the reviews were well written AND entertaining, but I also trust the reviews/recommendations of certain members of Goodreads group I belong to who have proven reliable and knowledgeable. True, though, that I wouldn't know if they had some hidden agenda...
I like the idea of a consortium that gives out some sort of seal. I believe that most of us could agree on some basic standards for how to rate books. We could even come up with more than one. As a teacher, I tend to use rubrics a lot. Why not create a rubric for grammar and style? Another for overall clarity and consistency? I believe it's possible to rate books without factoring in aspects that are just a matter of taste. Are there verb tense problems? Lots of passive sentences? Ambiguous pronouns?We'd also have to define "style." To me, using profanity does not have any bearing on the quality of writing style, for instance. I may not like it or whatever, but it's not a style problem. It could present grammar problems if the profanity isn't used correctly, I suppose. When I talk about style I'm thinking of writing where the grammar is technically correct, but the phrasing is bad. For example, overuse of adverbs or, for an example of a problem my beta-reader nails me on, dependent clauses that don't work with their independent clauses.
The key is for our beta-readers to go ahead and act like English teachers and grammar Nazis so our reviewers don't have to. I can't be a grammar Nazi because of my contentious relationship with commas, for instance, but as a former English teacher, I cannot read a book with a lot of errors in it. Two or three, sure. Even four or five, I can let go. But when a writer consistently repeats the same errors over and over, it doesn't matter how good the story is, I can't read it.
I know most people out there don't mind bad writing. I've never read 50 Shades, but I'm told the writing isn't high quality. If that's true, it's a testament to how most people don't care. But as an author, I care, and I want my work to be good enough that other people with high standards like mine will like my books.
I've been known to struggle with my own impatience with revision (this is an understatement) but lately it's become essential to me that my novels be the best that they can be. I had the good fortune of having a reader point out typos in specific locations throughout my books, and I went back and fixed them all. Are there still typos lurking in them? No doubt, but my goal is to eradicate them.
Christopher, I'm looking forward to July. It's really important for indie authors to take some sort of action to deal with this.
If anyone wants to form a consortium with me, I'm game. I think the trick would be for more than one person to evaluate each book. We could do it without reading entire books, if what we're looking at is just grammar and style (as I define it). We could look at the first 10-15% of novels to grade them on their level of quality. That's actually giving authors a little wiggle-room because often the first part of a book is the most revised part. Any thoughts?
Richard, I know exactly what you mean about narrators. I'm currently wrestling with a new one who has a dialect and it's one part Sophia-is-trying-to-get-a-handle-on-this-dialect-and-be-consistent and two parts Ginna(the narrator)-is-running-the-show-and-refuses-to-keep-her-verbs-consistent. I'm finding it both very challenging and very interesting to write with this voice.And I see your point about 50 Shades. First of all, I haven't read it, so I can't judge it anyway. Second, it certainly sounds like the issue is a matter of taste. I understood there to be grammatical and stylistic problems with 50 Shades. If not, I apologize for using it as an example. The thing is, I steer so clear of novels people say are badly written that I have no examples to give that everyone here will have heard of. I've read plenty of badly written novels--and by badly written I mean because there was no editor or the editor they had was handing out daisies instead of doing their job. I just don't think naming those novels here is a) ethical and b) useful in that no one will have heard of them.
So our consortium would need members capable of judging the difference between books plagued with bad editing or books where the narrator's voice is grammatically eccentric. I was serious when I mentioned having a rubric, too. It can really help make evaluations consistent. The rubric could have categories: verbs (including tense consistency and the other areas you name), dialogue structure, use of adverbs and adjectives, pronoun clarity, typos, etc. It could have levels, so a book would get a high rating in the category of verbs if it didn't have any of the errors we've listed, a somewhat lower grade if it had just a few, a mediocre grade if it had several, and so on.
I think that while there are a lot of other potential problems with self-published books, like flat characters, cliches, predictable plots, etc., those shouldn't come under the same evaluation. Those make sense for reviewers to point out. What I'm calling for is a level of quality control that comes before those considerations. Basic, fundamental quality control.
Mod
I feel your pain.
I have a character who speaks Franglish--heavily accented English and French words-phrases interspersed. That has been an ongoing challenge, because she is a main character in the series, for three novels thus far.
:)
Jacqueline wrote: "This is still an awesome thread! Everyone had such insightful comments. I'm so tired of people afraid to hurt everytone's feelings. Granted, when I write a negative review, I do so in a way that's ..."Agree with this. It's time somebody called a spade a spade instead of a soil distribution implement. If write a negative review, I give reasons (style, structure etc) but I never get personal, and yet, some people think you should never give a negative review.
In regards to the rubric:Once we've all voted and agreed on the categories and grading scale, then it should be a form that every reviewer of the group uses in order for the process to be as uniform and fair. The idea being that we're trying to eliminate bias as much as possible.
The usual categories can be:
Style
Hook
Ending
Grammar
Plot
Characters
Originality
Pace
Structure
These are the general categories off the top of my head. Each one can be broken down from there and give a scale so we can create a uniform scale. But nothing to complex. Plus we should leave areas for any reviewer to leave additional comments outside of the scoring, or not. Creative writing is inherently subjective, yet it can be graded once one has a critical eye.
R.M.F wrote: ...If write a negative review, I give reasons (style, structure etc) but I never get personal, and yet, some people think you should never give a negative review."I have never understood why a writer, of any kind, would hate getting a negative review—assuming it is written as you write yours, giving reasons for the lower rating. I'm of the opinion you need to have such constructive criticism from all types of readers if you intend to better your craft for future work.
Of course, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who've gotten burned by one too many negative reviews that do delve into the personal instead of sticking directly to constructive criticism.
negative reviews with a logical basis are one thing. I've even had positive reviews that throw me off. One said I was obviously influenced by another writer whom I've never read. I love constructive criticism, well thought out reviews be them good or bad, and anything honest/sincere, but sometimes, people just like to talk out of their asses (arses for you British folk).
I'm an indie author and I love reading other works by indie authors. I don't think a standard seal is the answer to poor work. I just wish writers would take the time to edit and re-edit over and over until their work is of a high standard. I gave my book to two editors one in the UK and in the US. I also had it read by two english teachers. Their suggestions were helpful and made my book better. They are part of the reason why every review for it on every site has been 5 stars. I read a book recently that I was so dissapointed in and I left an honest review on amazon. I pointed out the spelling mistakes, run on sentences (close to 100 words a few times), the terrible conversations and so on. My aim was not to make this author feel bad about their work, but to hopefully encourage them to take more time before publishing. Indie authors have some amazing stories to tell we just have to make sure we present them in the best possible state.
Jason wrote: "negative reviews with a logical basis are one thing. I've even had positive reviews that throw me off ... sometimes, people just like to talk out of their asses (arses for you British folk)."I agree. There are some reviews where you can't help but thing the person is only trying to boost their reviewer rating on Amazon—and then even wonder if they have read your book at all.
I haven't experienced it since my first novel went on sale, but I certainly experienced it from beta readers. It drove me up the wall.
Kevin wrote: "I'm an indie author and I love reading other works by indie authors. I don't think a standard seal is the answer to poor work. I just wish writers would take the time to edit and re-edit over and o..."Yes, I received a review early on that made me realize I couldn't rely on my editor and 4 proofreads to catch everything. But I was thankful for it - the few things that were missed could be corrected. That's one advantage of being an indie author
Jason that is exactly the point. We might all be excellent at telling stories, but others are better at grammar etc. I spend a lot of time studying grammar and punctuation, however I still miss things that others pick up.
Kevin wrote: "Jason that is exactly the point. We might all be excellent at telling stories, but others are better at grammar etc. I spend a lot of time studying grammar and punctuation, however I still miss thi..."Story of my life!
I would drop everything but Style, Grammar, and Structure.@Richard, That's a good direction. I was just listing the usual categories, major and minor, to brainstorm. I agree that whatever form is used should be kept simple and straight forward. Keep It Simple, Stupid, usually works the best when you have either a lot of information to disseminate or a lot of people involved, or both.
Mod
Hi, Sophia,
We are indeed starting a site, still under construction, that will provide both reviews and recommendations based on a point system determined by a variety of factors. We've already discuss, not to exhaustion, a rubric system for the point determination, and I invite you to be a part of our panel, even in a leadership role (we'll talk about that at a time closer to the launch), that will make the final point level determinations. The awards will be in the form of digital "medals" for point value ranges in all standard genre classifications. We plan on a big event series, utilizing all our media networks, and a submission criteria limit. If you plan on a consortium, that would be an individual pursuit, but if you'd like to be a part of our future program, I encourage you to let me know so we can begin communicating about the structure, methods, and base submission criteria prior to our launch. It's very exciting, and I'm pleased to see that other members area excited about the prospect of developing a system for identifying quality indie books that display characteristics rivaling traditionally published work. Thank you for your participation and commentary. It's very refreshing.
Chris Shields,
Modern Good Reads
Founder, Group Moderator
Mod
Hi, M.G.,
I don't think most readers would pay for a service that identifies quality indie books, even when the standards used to determine their quality are transparent and carefully executed. I do think they would pay attention to the advise of a carefully constructed, thorough, and unbiased reference source, and that's the most important aspect of the discussion, to me: Where can readers find a trusted evaluation of the quality of indie books. We plan to provide that. It's coming, and I do like seeing all the ideas building in this thread. They will help us in the construction of that resource. Thanks for your comments.
Chris Shields
Modern Good Reads
Founder, Group Moderator
Mod
C.E.,
I absolutely will, and I would very much like to discuss some preliminary ideas with you. We have a large administration team, but we have categories that will need management. I look forward to talking with you more sometime in June about what we're doing. It'll be big, and very rewarding across the scope if indie publishing. Thanks for your comments.
Chris Shields,
Modern Good Reads
Founder, Group Moderator
Chris,On further reflection, I agree that most readers wouldn't pay for a review service. I am very interested in your plans to build some kind of evaluation system, and it's great to read everyone's ideas and thoughts on the matter. Obviously, most of us agree that we need a source that distinguishes well-written Indie books and gives Indie writers more credibility in the marketplace. I would welcome this wholeheartedly as both a reader and a writer. Can't wait to see what you have in the works!
Michelle wrote: "So...investing in Kirkus would be unwise? I worry that I will get a socially conservative reader who throws tantrums about content in my book. ABNA is unreliable too."Agreed. I got to Round 2 of the ABNA, and received the two Viner reviews. One reviewer raved about October Snow, said it was perfect. The other... Oy. Docked me for presenting Jo as "unstable". (Which means I did a good job in the excerpt, because Jo is most definitely unstable.) ;) And this reviewer also wanted me to maintain the pace of the Prologue - which is the murder of a battered woman. Tough to keep that kind of pace going for a 370-page novel.
I'm pretty sure I won't be entering next year.
Ethan wrote: "R.M.F wrote: ...If write a negative review, I give reasons (style, structure etc) but I never get personal, and yet, some people think you should never give a negative review."I have never unders..."
The most interesting review I've received was from a woman who knows me and hates me. She ripped me to shreds, yet said that my novel has "definite merit." So I didn't complain to Amazon - I'm leaving it there. I figure that's about as compelling an endorsement as an author can get. :D
I'm curious. If this has already been answered and I missed it, please excuse my ignorance. I agree that good blogs are currently the best gatekeepers for good indie reads. But when I look for such blogs, I'm overwhelmed and confused because they aren't always specific about what they review and, when I check them out, often they either no longer exist or are pretty bad. So... is there a list of book blogs that's both current and instructive as to their purpose? A thought... if there is no such list, should there be one and how do we create it?
Mod
HI, Florence,
That is actually part of the discussion. We, the Founders and Moderators of this group, are in work on that very thing: a blog site that actually evaluates the quality of indie books across several criteria, and reports that quality in a recommendation with assignments of "medal" awards covering preset parameters. We anticipate the site to be ready for launch in July.
I just scanned a discussion on another group I'm not a member of, in which they were poking fun at a self-published Kindlebook on Amazon. The book's description was full of grammatical errors, to the point that it was hard to understand. Apparently the author has published several ebooks, all in the 10 page range.
What strikes me about this is that it's bad for authors who take a lot of time and care with our ebooks, calling on the services of beta readers, writing groups, and editors, doing multiple revisions, etc. Readers are looking at these low quality ebooks and thinking that they represent most of the indie published books out there. I know this is true because that's how I feel about it as a reader. I almost never read indie published stuff. I tried to for about six months and got so sick of poor writing that when I finally caved and picked up a trad published novel it was *such a relief*.
The writing didn't have the blatant grammar and style problems this guy's description had, because with a description that bad, I never would have picked the book up at all. But I see a lot of recurring flaws in indie published books. Dizzying point of view shifts. Verb tense inconsistencies (although I have to admit that currently I'm wrestling with a new narrator who insists on doing this in a novel I'm writing--still, I'm aiming to have that tamed by the time the book goes live). Flat characters. Cliches. Plot holes. Etc.
So here's why I'm posting about this. I want to figure out a way to create some quality control for indie published novels. There must be a way to do it. I've heard that there are sites out there that give out awards for good grammar...? I haven't come across them myself, but someone said something about it to me.
I know what you're thinking. "I don't have time to deal with this." Neither do I! But I think we're going to have to find a way. Because as a reader, I want to read more well-crafted indie stuff. And as an indie author, I want to have some recognizable badge I can affix to my published works that says, "Hey readers, you can trust that the writing in this book is high quality, as it pertains to grammar, style, and basic story." I'm not talking about matters of taste like whether or not you like your vampires to sparkle. My issue is, does this author know how to format dialogue? Will there be so many adverbs they start leaking out of my ears? Will I encounter vocabulary such as "could of" or "allot"? Is there any sort of consistent point of view? Is the main character a perfect little petite redhead with lavender eyes (or some variation)? Although that last one might have to go under the "matter of taste" category, I guess.
What do you all think? Can we, as a collective of readers and writers with the worldwide exposure of a site like Goodreads come up with a way to label high quality indie published ebooks as such? Do you have any ideas to start off?