The Return of the King
discussion
Is anyone else really upset at the ending??
Like whom? He couldn't relate to anyone (except maybe Sam) because nobody made trough the same as he did emotionally. The only living family being Bilbo went with him. The others he lost touch with completely. So what was there left to keep him in the Shire?I.M.O he deserved to go!
I am pretty sure Sam eventually goes too. He was also a ring-bearer, even if it was for a short period of time.
Scott wrote: "I am pretty sure Sam eventually goes too. He was also a ring-bearer, even if it was for a short period of time."I'm pretty sure he won't go, even given the chance, he wouldn't want to leave his wife and kids behind, cause if anything Sam is loyal!
Michael wrote: I'm pretty sure he won't go, even given the chance, he wouldn't want..."honey, read the books. he goes after Rosie's death and reunites with Frodo eventually.
@ivanesca, sorry seems I never read that part... will have to look for that!
It is in the appendices I think.
It was a bit melancholic to see Frodo go but as other people pointed out he could no , longer relate to the rest of the everyday Hobbits and also still suffered greatly from the wounds he had received particularly the knife wound from the Nazgul.Across the sea they would have some methods to provide him with some solace I think so overall its better that he went. Though it was indeed a bitter sweet parting.
Attn Scott & Michael: In the novel Sam DEFINITELY goes, once Rosie dies (of old age) and his children (of which he has many) are grown.Actually if you read the appendixes and the family trees every single member of the Fellowship and most of the other main characters die eventually (most of old age). A few go to the Grey Havens - including Sam, Legolas, and Gimli.
What "is" the Grey Havens? I've read the books (proper) several times, although I've not dug into appendices and the like to find out. I know it's where the elves go when they leave Middle Earth, but what exactly is it? Another continent? Another plane of existence?
Forgot to answer the original question... YES! I remember the first time I read the books when I was about 13 years old, and being overwhelmed with sadness at the ending. I had never had a book do that to me before. I still sort of dread the ending on a re-read.
The ending is bittersweet, and it made me a little melancholy. But, on the whole, I think Tolkien wrapped up the story quite well; some books need an ending like that.
Robert wrote: "What "is" the Grey Havens? I've read the books (proper) several times, although I've not dug into appendices and the like to find out. I know it's where the elves go when they leave Middle Earth, b..."The Grey Havens is a port, ruled by Cirdan the Shipwright (who is, as far as I know, the only bearded elf in Middle-Earth!) From there you can take a ship that will sail the straight road across the Sundering Seas to Aman - the Undying Lands, the Land of the Blessed.
It is the place all the elves came from - a land ruled by the Valar (gods, like Morgoth was, before his corruption). It used to be possible to sail from Valinor (the kingdom of the Valar) to Middle-Earth and back, but after the rebellion of Men (instigated by Sauron, when he still had a beautiful body, and could deceive), when they tried to invade Aman (so they, too, would not die), the gods responded by "bending the seas", thus creating the round Earth that we have today.
Since then it takes special grace from the gods to allow a ship to sail straight - to Aman. The lands in the West are no longer in our plane of existence. And, (apart, perhaps, from Gandalf) I think only 1 person has ever come back...
And I think that the endings were as happy as possible for the individual characters. But yes, there is a strong feeling of melancholy - how could it be otherwise, when an Age is ending?
Thanks Alexandra! I always wondered.
I really appreciate the high level of conversation about this topic...Alexandria, nice explanation. I have been so disheartened by the threads started by people who never, ever picked up The Hobbit or LOR till the movies came out, and then they were expecting, I don't know, a string of adrenaline-based fight scenes with weird critters, wall-to-wall, and were "bored" by having to deal with characterization and the incredible word-smithery Tolkien used. I feel so much better after having read this discussion!
Alexandra wrote: "Robert wrote: "What "is" the Grey Havens? I've read the books (proper) several times, although I've not dug into appendices and the like to find out. I know it's where the elves go when they leave ..."A very nice and succinct summation, Alexandra.
You're welcome.For those who would like to read more about Middle-Earth, but perhaps find the tone of the Appendices and The Silmarillion too dry, may I recommmend Unfinished Tales? There are stories there as moving and powerful as in "Lord of thee Rings" itself.
"And, (apart, perhaps, from Gandalf) I think only 1 person has ever come back..."What do you mean by "come back"? Do you mean that they went back to Valinor, which all the older elves did.
No, quite the converse. I meant come back to Middle-Earth FROM Valinor, after the seas were bent.(But I was wrong - TWO came back (other than Gandalf).)
I agree, the ending where Frodo leaves is so sad, but everything's finished up nicely by the end—the stories of everyone in the Fellowship are definitely wrapped up. Though its sad to see them all "go." And no one familiar's left. Anyways.
"TWO came back (other than Gandalf)" Who?
Well, isn't that rather a spoiler? I'm not sure that it is explained in "Lord of the Rings".The couple - and it IS a couple - have their tale told in "The Silmarillion" (and also in "Unfinished Tales")
I'd hate to spoil those stories for people who have just finished "Lord of the Rings"....
(If you still want me to say - start a different thread. That way I don't add a major spoiler to a discussion of the ending of LotR)
Tilly wrote: "When Frodo leaves, I get so upset. Everyone else who I speak to about it thinks it's fine (he was so emotionally scarred, etc) but every time I read it or see it in the film, I start crying... I t..."
Yes, it was heartbreaking ;_; But then again, it couldn't end any other way. Frodo couldn't return to life in the Shire - Sam could, he was a simple gardener ... but Frodo could never settle down, and get married. How could anyone know what he'd been through? He would only ever be happy at the Grey Havens. As for leaving people behind - both Gandalf and Bilbo he took with him, and it says in the appendices that after Rosie's death, Sam also joined him at the Grey Havens, along with Legolas and Gimli.
As for Merry and Pippin - they were young, they had whole lives ahead of them ... Pippin was a soldier of Gondor, serving under Aragorn, and they made more than one trip back and forth between the Shire and Minas Tirith, according to the timeline, I think.
So yeah, it was sad, but necessary, and in some respects happy :)
"The couple - and it IS a couple"Well if you count those two, then what about the other 4 wizards and Glorfindal (he had to have come back some time).
Well, I wasn't counting the Istari since there was no sense of them originating in Middle-Earth - Gandalf being a possible exception because it is unclear whether he went to the Blessed Realm after his death - he was "sent back", but from where?Tolkien appears to have changed his mind several times, including the possibility that Glorfindel of Rivendell is a reincarnation of Glorfindel of Gondolin, but I think the final conclusion was that Glorfindel travelled to Middle-Earth during the Second Age, before the rebellion of Men and the bending of the seas.
And, yes, it was the two lovers that I referred to originally ;)
Alexandra wrote: "Robert wrote: "What "is" the Grey Havens? I've read the books (proper) several times, although I've not dug into appendices and the like to find out. I know it's where the elves go when they leave ..."Alexandra, a very good summation, but one thing. I think the Valar laid down their dominion of the earth at the time of the rebellion of men, and it was the true God (Eru?) who did the bending.
Alexandra wrote: "It is the place all the elves came from"Not exactly. The elves originated in Middle-Earth just as much as the Men did. Some of the elves, like the Noldor (Galadriel's family and clan, for those who haven't read The Silmarillion) then migrated to Valinor, but some others, like the Sindar and Teleri stayed in Middle-Earth. And some of the elves in Valinor rebelled against the Valar and returned to Middle-Earth. So actually plenty of people have returned to Middle-Earth from Valinor.
And so Frodo goes off to Grey Havens and becomes immortal. And so JRRT eternalizes his lead character to literature´s gain.
Mitali wrote: "Alexandra wrote: "It is the place all the elves came from"Not exactly. The elves originated in Middle-Earth just as much as the Men did. Some of the elves, like the Noldor (Galadriel's family and..."
I was certainly wrong. I had forgotten the Avari ("The Refusers") - the elves that did not follow the Herald of Manwe to Aman. But I don't remember any Sinda being among them.
But you misquote me also. I described the bending of the seas and then said "since then... only 1 person... has come back." [which I later corrected myself to two].
The return of the Elves to Middle-Earth after they rebelled against the Valar was prior to the bending of the seas.
Michaela wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "And so Frodo goes off to Grey Havens and becomes immortal. And so JRRT eternalizes his lead character to literature´s gain."He doesn't become immortal, in one of the appendixes i..."
But are you sure they died there? I am going on memory, but I feel sure that they lived out their normal lifespans (rather extended through having been Ringbearers), and then took ship (on the last one) and sailed for the Undying Lands - and hence immortality.
Dena wrote: "I always get upset at the ending too. I watched the movies before reading the book and the first time I saw it and realized Frodo was leaving I yelled at the TV 'what!?' Thats it!? he cant just lea..."Dena wrote: "I always get upset at the ending too. I watched the movies before reading the book and the first time I saw it and realized Frodo was leaving I yelled at the TV 'what!?' Thats it!? he cant just lea..."
I was very disappointed that they left the scouring of the Shire out of the movie. Next to Tom Bombadil it was the worst cut. It really emphasized the fact that the war would have affected everyone and also that all of the fellowship had changed and grown from their experiences.
It seems to me that if they could make 3 movies out of The Hobbit then there should have been 2-3 movies for each of the other books.
I've always thought the ending was one of the best and most appropiate, ever. Carrying the ring had to have been very damaging to Frodo. He wouldn't have been able to relate to anyone other than Sam, with his experiences and emotional scars. Going to the Gray Havens was a way to recognize and reward Frodo for his sacrifice.Of course, Sam had things to do such as helping the Shire recover from its scourging. It is good that Sam was also given the reward of going to the Gray Havens after his wife died.
Twas poignant and perfect, IMO.
In contrast, the Black Company's end was lousy. Felt like Cook lost his love of the Black Company and was just hurrying to finish the series. While I realize this was the only way to end the BC series (no spoilers!), I strongly feel it could have been handled better.
I wasn't upset at the ending as a whole, but I wanted Sam to say something other than "well, I'm back." What I expected him to say or do, I don't know though.
The end of TLOTL is meant to be sad because it is the end of Middle Earth. All those magical things are going away... forever. Touched by the power of the ring, Frodo feels he no longer belongs as Middle Earth slips away, and yes, Sam also leaves, although many years later.I was also disappointed that The Scouring of the Shire was not in the films, although I understand why it was cut. Frodo's main reason for accepting the quest (in the film) is because he's doing it to save the Shire, also the sequence would have added a good hour+ to the film.
My upset is over the effect the ending alteration had, the appreciation for Frodo and Sam was diminished because Hobbitton avoided the evils the rest of middle earth soffered. And Tolkien had that in the book.
Ava D wrote: "My upset is over the effect the ending alteration had, the appreciation for Frodo and Sam was diminished because Hobbitton avoided the evils the rest of middle earth soffered. And Tolkien had that..."I agree with you Ava. Peter Jackson seems to fall into the modern malaise of thinking heroes somehow "deserve" a "happy ever after". Well, maybe they do, but that's not what happens. Not in the real world, and not in Tolkien's.
Victory comes at a price - and even the victors lose. No one gets through a war unscathed. War is never a good thing, never simply a glorious adventure, that one can "come home" after, and leave behind completely.
Tolkien had been through a war, and understood that. Jackson hasn't, and doesn't. He sees the War of the Ring as fundamentally a great adventure. And that is why his films are visually spectacular candyfloss. Whilst Tolkien's tales are something deeper, that you return to again and again.
Tolkien's words at the end of the Hobbit and at the end of the Return of the King reflect an understanding of how time passes. And how memories are diminished by time and other experiences, no matter how tremendously impactful those experiences were.
Alexandra, thanks for taking the time to consider my words.
Frodo had to leave the Shire, there was nothing left for him there after everything that happened. Sam and the rest had story lines to return to, but Frodo's fate was to move on. Sad but necessary :)
A lot of people felt that the film had too many endings, and would have been just fine if the last scene had been everyone bowing to the hobbits. However, the trip to the undying lands had to be in there, because Frodo didn't win, he survived. However, the very end, with Sam returning to his family (Sean Astin's real kids played his kids) is really too much.
I had no problem with the ending with the exception of the omission of Wormwood`s treacherous actions to the Shire. It was important as it showed the maturation of the other Hobbits who went on the adventure and how they came to deal effectively on their own with evil in their midst. But yes, it would have only prolonged a 10 hour film.
True, but there is often a lot that goes on outside of the action that impacts the future.
Many parts of the trilogy are bleak and depressing, but the end was especially so. All of the death and the friends that the characters could never see again.... and of course the first time I read it I skipped ahead to the ending and I thought Frodo had died.
It's almost as bad as the end of the Hobbit. I was almost drawn to tears during the H. Except maybe it was worse, because I truly felt miserable at the very end. But being a LOTR fan even more than a Narnia one, I guess it was because my fav trilogy was drawing to a close. :(
It's almost as bad as the end of the Hobbit. I was almost drawn to tears during the H. Except maybe it was worse, because I truly felt miserable at the very end. But being a LOTR fan even more than a Narnia one, I guess it was because my fav trilogy was drawing to a close. :(
Tilly wrote: "When Frodo leaves, I get so upset. Everyone else who I speak to about it thinks it's fine (he was so emotionally scarred, etc) but every time I read it or see it in the film, I start crying... I t..."
I was sad when he left mainly because the whole event was sad, leaving your friend etc etc. leaving the lands you know and love. Had Frodo gone all happy and really excited it would have been a really bad end to the book. The fact that it is a sad end makes it more believable, IMO.
Scott wrote: "I am pretty sure Sam eventually goes too. He was also a ring-bearer, even if it was for a short period of time."
(view spoiler).
Of course your sad when Frodo leaves, but I was happy with the ending. Also in the book it says that when Samwise is old he goes to The Undying Lands to be with Frodo and Bilbo. I like how it also says that Legolas and Gimli went there too=]
I got really sad at the ending.It was partly because it felt so unfair that he had to leave after all he had done to make Middle Earth a better place and partly because I felt terrible for Sam and Pippin and Merry.
But I get it now.
Just like Frodo said, the shire was saved, but not for him. It wasn't for his own peace of mind or wealth or glory that he destroyed the ring; it was out of duty. It was out of courage and hobbit determination. Maybe he didn't know what being a ringbearer would entail, but by the end of it all, he was ready to move on. He had done what he meant to, like Gandalf when he returned as Gandalf the White.
Remember that this was Frodo's choice. The others may not have understood, but if you think about it a little, you realize they're not going to be scarred and sad forever; Pippin and Merry have each other and were already singing by the time Frodo got back to the Shire, and Sam has Rosie and has more kids than the Old Took; plus, everyone thinks he's a hero and he's mayor for sixteen years.
So it is bittersweet, but everyone ends up living in peace; the three that stay become heads of great families and their sections of the shire: Sam with Rosie, Pippin as the Thain of Tooks, and Merry as the head of the Buckland. Frodo is finally able to be happy after all that suffering. Everyone is finally, finally at peace. So I'm happy for them, too.
Alexandra wrote: "Robert wrote: "What "is" the Grey Havens? I've read the books (proper) several times, although I've not dug into appendices and the like to find out. I know it's where the elves go when they leave ..."Excellent summation, Alexandra. It is always a pleasure to read clarifying comments from a fellow Tolkien geek who has read more than just The Hobbit and LOTR. And folks, Alexandra is quite right. If you find The Silmarillion too dry ( I don't but I'm a bit old school myself), Unfinished Tales is an excellent source of back story for much of the history of Middle Earth and Arda (The Earth) in general . . . especially the history of the Numenoreans (Aragorn's ancestors).
Just to clarify. Frodo and Bilbo do indeed die. They do NOT become immortal. Frodo and Bilbo sail to the Undying lands (Aman) from the Grey Havens in Middle Earth. In Aman, Frodo is healed of his hurts and lives the rest of his life in bliss there, but he does indeed die. The Undying Lands do not somehow grant immortality. The immortal (Valar) living there are immortal because it is their nature. Even the elves are not immortal. Their existence is bound to the world (Arda). They live as long as it exists. Men, Hobbits and Dwarves have different life fates than Elves.
Alexandra wrote: "Michaela wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "And so Frodo goes off to Grey Havens and becomes immortal. And so JRRT eternalizes his lead character to literature´s gain."He doesn't become immortal, in one of..."
Just to clarify. Frodo and Bilbo do indeed die. They do NOT become immortal. Frodo and Bilbo sail to the Undying lands (Aman) from the Grey Havens in Middle Earth. In Aman, Frodo is healed of his hurts and lives the rest of his life in bliss there, but he does indeed die. The Undying Lands do not somehow grant immortality. The immortal (Valar) living there are immortal because it is their nature. Even the elves are not immortal. Their existence is bound to the world (Arda). They live as long as it exists. Men, Hobbits and Dwarves have different life fates than Elves.
Scott wrote: "I am pretty sure Sam eventually goes too. He was also a ring-bearer, even if it was for a short period of time."Sam does indeed go to The Undying Lands, as do Legolas & Gimli. They build a boat together and sail away. Sam was granted access since he was a ring bearer for a short time. Legolas is an elf, so he is automatic. Gimli allowed because of his being in the fellowship, his love for the Lady Galadriel and his friendship with Legolas.
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I think I'm just sad for those he leaves behind.