The Malazan Fallen discussion
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Memories of Ice
Group Read - Memories of Ice
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MOI - Chapter Three - NO SPOILERS
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Note that Kallor, the former High king of what is now known as the imperial warren is Caladan's second. What would Caladan want with a millenia's old tyrant who killed seven million souls just so they couldn't be rescued by the Elder gods?
Brood made use of Kallor’s knowledge of tactics, what seemed an instinctive mastery of the sweep and shift of vast campaigns
Kallor remains undefeated in battle, a master tactician and strategist. And yet he remains unsuccessful in his own ambitions as per the curse Draconus and the other two elder gods laid on him.
We also meet up with 'Silverfox" the amalgam of the mages Tattersail and Nightchill from book one. She has the appearance of a ten year old child, but was born only six months ago. Her mother "the Myhbe" is literally feeding the child from her own life force. As Kallor points out
‘Look at the hag beside her,’ the High King growled. ‘She’s barely seen twenty summers, High Fist, and this child was torn from her womb not six months ago. The abomination feeds on the life force of her mother – no, not mother, the unfortunate vessel that once hosted the child
Kallor has a serious beef with one of the former mages that makes up Silverfox ie "Nightchill"
Cloth held to his face, Kallor’s snort was muffled. ‘ “Nightchill”,’ he murmured. ‘Such a lack of imagination ... Did K’rul even know? Ah, what irony . .
Question - how does Kallor know Nightchill, and why would K'rul know "Nightchill" - remember K'rull was there at the birth of Silverfox in book one.
rereaders of course will know (view spoiler)
The other thing to note is that Silverfox was born under the influence of the T'lan Imass warren. Consequently
I was born in two places at once – among the Rhivi in this world, and into the hands of the Bonecaster in the Tellann warren.’ She hesitated, shuddering as if suddenly spent. ‘My future,’ she whispered after a moment, her arms drawing around herself, ‘belongs to the T’lan Imass.’
...That is for me to decide, for I exist to command them. To command them all. My birth proclaimed the Gathering – a demand that every T’lan Imass on this world has heard. And now, those who are able, are coming. They are coming.’
This little 10 year old, by all appearances, commands the T'lan Imass armies. As such, she is actually the most powerful person at this meeting.
(view spoiler)
The question also comes up - what will happen when Paran and Silverfox meet up, given that Tattersail and Paran were former (though very brief) lovers?
This chapter we get a more overt reference to the Great Ravens being born from the rotting flesh of the Crippled god. They actually carry a piece of the god's magic within themselves. She is ashamed and afraid that Rake will find out. Only a select few are supposed to know as Crone thinks to herself
T’lan Imass! And K’rul, the Elder God! Holders of the truth of the Great Ravens, a truth no-one else knows – except for Silverfox, by the Abyss . . .
Of course little does Crone know the Tiste Andii are already well aware of the Great Raven's origins
Korlat smiled. ‘Crone believes the secret of her kind’s birth is not known to us. It is the shame of their origins, you see – or so they themselves view it. Rake is indifferent to its ... moral context, as we all are.’
So why does Rake host the Ravens on Moonspawn?
To attack a Great Raven with magic serves only to make the creature stronger, to bolster its immunity. Crone is the First Born. Rake believes the potential within her is . . . appalling, and so he keeps her and ilk close.’
We also get another look at the vast indifference/apathy of the tiste Andii people
– a people plagued by indifference, an apathy that made even the efforts of civil discourse too much to contemplate. There were secret tragedies in the long, tortured past of the Tiste Andii. Wounds that would never heal. Even suffering, the Rhivi had come to realize, was capable of becoming a way of life. To then extend such an existence from decades into centuries, then into millennia, still brought home to the Mhybe a dull shock of horror.
And in the closing the question is raised about Nightchill's lover who was there and supposedly died when Tattersail and Nightchill "joined'
Commander, we sense Tattersail and Nightchill within the child – and she herself admits to these two – but now I wonder, where then is this Thelomen, Bellurdan?’
He could only draw a deep breath and shake his head. Gods, I don’t know ...
And if Erikson is bringing up the question we can be sure it's something to keep an eye out for down the track.
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A lot happens in this chapter. Whiskey Jack is awesome.
Did we know Brood was an ascendant before this chapter? I'm not surprised, but I don't remember it either.
Mod
A lot happens in this chapter. Whiskey Jack is awesome.
Did we know Brood was an ascendant before this chapter..."
I think this is where it was first explicitly stated
I think it is kind of cool how Dujek and Brood were so on the same page with their battle plans...shows that they were worthy adversaries!
A ton of information! We learn a lot more about Burn, she seems to be a goddess of earth, and the fabric of her dreams affect everything.Interesting that Brood seems to have some Barghast appearance. (view spoiler)
Nightchill must be the Elder who cursed Kallor, sister of K'rull, no wonder he hates her. If I remember correctly, she was doomed to die by betrayal.
The standard bearer of the Malazans is not what he seems. All of a sudden he has popped up as a character of some importance, since he was included in the meeting. (view spoiler)
Lots of info dump, but as always SE gets around the boredom of exposition by including character development.
I liked the sequence where WJ and Dujek give Crone the what for. Made me smile.
Yes thanks for reminding me, heh. Crone had a couple hits this chapter, and it's so human to think nobody knows our secret when everybody knows. But she is linked to the Fallen God and she "protects" the magic. Given what we've seen of the FG that's a good thing. He is NASTY!
message 10:
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Lee, High Priest of Shadow
(last edited Apr 02, 2013 02:59PM)
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rated it 5 stars
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(view spoiler)
@ David, (view spoiler)
Yippee I remembered rightly!
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@Lee Spoilers please (view spoiler)BTW I'm back! And my first job is to jump on some potential spoilers :)
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Spolier tag added.
can i just say that i'm so glad we're back on Genebackis? Somehow it just feels like familiar territory! Quite like Silverfox, some powerful 10 year old right there! and yet still a very vulnerable one too i guess. i'm curious to see how the others will react to that.
The standard bearer is quite a curiosity. I bet it's someone we've met before as well!
o and david, i also just wanted to add that given the revelations in this chapter my edits in the chapter 1 post were correct. hoorah! no wonder someone isn't happy!
now i just have to figure out who the standard bearer is...
Mod
no wonder someone isn't happy!
now i just have to figure out..."
He's secretly a Unicorn. True story.
Mod
no wonder someone isn't happy!"
Ha Ha! Well done.
Oooh...unicorns! (just kidding)
Can't wait to see what kinds of T'lan Imass come crawling home...and I wish I knew whether I was supposed to like them or not. First I did, now I'm told they were big meanies to the Jaghut. Who do I root for? Curse you Steven Erikson.
Also - where is Tayschrenn hiding...makes me uneasy not knowing.
Happy Tattersail is back (sort of), also Crone. Crone makes me laugh.
I find Korlat an interesting character, curious to see what parts she will play in this book.
Mod
So we tend to like them, especially Tool who becomes a favourite for most people. Yet here is what they did:
They recognised that the Jaghut race was a quiet race of people, who tended to keep to themselves. They didn't even mix with each other, most people didn't encounter them. But every now and then a tyrant came about and caused some mayhem. So the Imass decides to take a ritual which means they never die and go about performing genocide on every living Jaghut. Which involves breaking the every bone in a childs body and buying them under a rock. Yeah, we love these guys!
Now they are at the end of their quest, there aren't many Jaghut around, if there are, they are good at hiding and the Imass have nothing to do, for eternity.
Erikson is brilliant that we like these guys.
No kidding. Seriously, that's what they did to the Jaghut children? Wow.So - Jaghuts are generally good except a few bad tyrants.
T'lan Imass are generally bad, except Tool. Probably. Still can't wait to see what comes crawling home...things are going to get seriously creepy.
Hey I brought up this very discussion but in Ch. 13 dice I didn't remember which specific thread was applicable. So glad others are struck by the notion that we kind of like a people who committed genocide WTF!!!
Hanne wrote: "o and david, i also just wanted to add that given the revelations in this chapter my edits in the chapter 1 post were correct. hoorah! no wonder someone isn't happy!
now i just have to figure out..."
And won't that be a bit of a surprise although if you've read Night of Knives you might have figured it out already...
I'm glad to be back on Genabackis too. Somehow all my favorite characters ended up there at the end of Gardens of the Moon.Among those characters was Tattersail. It's kind of disappointing that a few chapters of one book was all the unmixed Tattersail we were going to see, but Silverfox is impressive, to put it mildly. I gasped at just about every line she had in this chapter.
Whoever this standard-bearer is, I notice he wrote our chapter epigraph.
I haven't felt encouraged to like the T'lan Imass, exactly, but I do feel like we're at least encouraged to identify with them. If it makes sense to think of the humans of the Malazan world as "us," then the T'lan Imass are our ancestors by blood. What's more, we see the world mostly from the point of view of the Malazans and their Empire, and even the Malazans' human enemies seem to be imperialists at heart. So the T'lan Imass, creators of the First Empire, are our ancestors in spirit too.
And now we know who the Elder Goddess from the prologue is. It should have been obvious from the start, I guess, if I'd been remembering the relevant details from earlier in the series.
Mod
I missed that.
If it makes sense to think of the humans of the Malazan world as "us," then the T'lan Imass are our ancestors by blood.
That's a good point. Getting an understanding of the Imass gives us a broader historical view of the Human Empires.
I feel deep pity for the Imass, at the same time I hate them for genocide. With SE there's rarely black and white.
I am so glad I'm starting to read these books again, obviously I've missed out on plenty good discussion but..... that will not stop me discussing with myself.I'm very intrigued by this standard bearer. Who, who, who are you?
And of course, now that they mention it... where did Bellurdan go, if now the other two survived? Considering Nightchill already was dead when he carried her... parts... around it's interesting that she's the one ended up in Silverfox' body with Tattersail.
Moving forward, next!
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Kat wrote: "I am so glad I'm starting to read these books again, obviously I've missed out on plenty good discussion but..... that will not stop me discussing with myself.Don't worry. I just started my re-read and I'm halfway through GotM.
So maybe, if I'm quick, I'm going to catch up to you.
And from my re-reading experience I know that David, Lee and Lori are always looking at the old threads and keep commenting.
That keeps me motivated. So hang in there, this series is such a unique experience and it will touch you and never leaves you again.
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Must.. Not..abuse.. Ban..powers..
Rob > Heh. X2Mpauli > Oh, I didn't give up on the series, I just derailed. I always planned to take it up again! I preferred Gardens of the Moon to Deadhouse Gates though, too much warfare and military strategy for my taste.
Oh and Rob sometimes drops by and says he's going to read all my spoiler threads sometime in the distant future.My whole life actually just depends on those statements. :)
I hope the universe is happy again with me! *serious kitty eye action putting Ian Sommerholder to shame going on here*
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Rob wrote: "If you liked Garden better Kat, you should really enjoy this one. At least that's how it was for me."Yeah same here. DG was mostly a lot of people running around the desert.
I'm really looking forward to the re-read though. Maybe it's different this time around.
And I wasn't a huge fan of Duiker and Coltaine, so I'm not with the majority of the readers, who liked that military tyrant and his fan-boy "historian".^^
Mod
Good to have you back Kat. We'll be around to answer your questions.
Rob > I did, I hope you're right!Mpauli > I liked Coltaine, though.
Lee > Nice!
Kat wrote: "Rob >Mpauli > I liked Coltaine, though.I think a lot of people do, due to his sacrifice and getting the job done, saving the peasents thing.
But I think Coltaine's character asks some interesting questions.
What rights should we sacrifice to be save? Does the end justify the means? These are popular questions especially these days, where we have do ask ourselves as a society how much is necessary to be secure and what is too much.
And if you actually look at Coltaine's behaviour, it would not stand in a modern society. His glorious sacrifice seems to outshine all what he's done on the way.
If you look carefully at the demands of the civilian leaders in the beginning, most of them are not unreasonable.
And beware what you read. You're reading all this glorification through the eyes of someone who should know better.
Duiker is, in my eyes, the worst historian ever, cause he isn't able to present facts, without coloring them heavily with his own glorified military background. Since day one he is a drooling fan boy of Coltaine, who does everything in his power to justify Coltaine's military tyranny.
On my old forum I had huge discussions about this. Most interestingly, the people often defending Coltaine wholeheartedly had a military background and shared their Iraq or Afghanistan experiences in how difficult it is to organize a civilian track and keep it save.
I think it's really interesting how different people feel where a line should be drawn between necessity and personal freedom.
But I think I will talk lots and more about this in the DG thread, when I get there. I tend to do that.^^
Hi MPauli,You can count me as a Coltaine fanboy.
Kat: This book was significantly more military focused than GotM but less so than DG. How did you find the balance?
Why hello Chaz! Welcome back! I have actually not finished it yet, I lost my way somewhere along the lines of summer, moving flats and trips back and forth places, but I'll try to remember to get back to you on this when I have.
I'm definitely liking it better than Deadhouse so far, it does seem more balanced. Less military strategy, far more of the winding storylines and odd places that made Moon such a wonderful book for me. There are parts I wholly loved about Deadhouse though, such as the lost cities and the Deadhouse itself (it was the Deadhouse they entered, right?).
Mod
They entered Tremorlor in Seven Cities and exited Deadhouse on Malaz Island. Or you could say they entered the Deadhouse via Tremorlor - so you are right :)
Me casa morbus est su casa morbus *showing his complete lack of spanish skills*For me, it was the same thing. The chain of dogs was my least favourite part, but the bits with Kalam, Fid, Mappo and Icarium were great.
I even like Felisin as a character to read about and I think she got better, after escaping Otataral Island.
David > Thanks, Tremorlor. It was a favourite part for me. Mpauli > Felisin does improve over time... or not so much over time as after she becomes whathernamewasagain. All these names. Everything not war-y was especially enjoyable for me.
Kat wrote: "whathernamewasagain"Shai'k Reborn, Dryjhna, goddess of the Apocalypse. And for the last 4 years I'm trying to figure out how to pronounce "Dryjhna".
I'm now saying it like "hyena", just with a "dry" at the beginning.
Mod
In my head it sounds something more like Drin-ya.I loved the Chain of Dogs so much, it is when I fell in love with this series rather than just liking it a heck of a lot. Those events had me gripped throughout and literally sobbing at their inevitable conclusion. Horses for courses though.
Chaz wrote: "In my head it sounds something more like Drin-ya.I loved the Chain of Dogs so much, it is when I fell in love with this series rather than just liking it a heck of a lot. Those events had me gri..."
I'm with you Chaz. The Chain had me from the start and all the way through. Any of the military stuff and soldier's life stuff (battles and downtime) is what makes the series for me.
Mpauli wrote: "Kat wrote: "whathernamewasagain"Shai'k Reborn, Dryjhna, goddess of the Apocalypse. And for the last 4 years I'm trying to figure out how to pronounce "Dryjhna".
I'm now saying it like "hyena", ju..."
I so wish there was a pronunciation guide! I probably end up trying to force more consistency than Erikson intends. My current guess for jh is to make it the sound some people would write zh, so that "Dryjhna" has the same consonants as "derision."
Speaking of Dryjhna, I don't think I understood whose name it is. Is it the whirlwind goddess, or Sha'ik, or some older prophet, or something else entirely?
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Confessions of Artanthos