What I really hate in m/m romance stories

[Lori S.]

I don't know if I can take much more punnishment from this place. Yet, I cannot stay away. Sigh ... >tilts head down< ;o)

[Fangtasia]

Jerry wrote: "I tend to think Aves is versatile too. Preferentially a bottom, but can top in a pinch..."

Thank you, Jerry, for confirming my thoughts. You know him personally, so your input is much more valid than mine. ;-D

If you had some trouble picturing Aves as the alpha-male in Macky's story, can you imagine how much Aves himself will enjoy it? I can see him laughing his head off when he reads it. :-D

[[deleted user]]

Jerry wrote: "Fangtasia wrote: "Wait, wait! Aves handed in his "strictly bottom" card a long time ago!"

Maybe so but yesterday he decided we had better start looking for some big muscular macho top man for him. Although he did admit to topping a ... never mind let him tell that story. His email to me included photos of examples of what we should look for in potential boyfriends most of the photo's would not be allowed in an open group where youngsters might see a wee wee so I can't post them here. I assure you these guys where huge and quite aggressive looking sexual predators.

[Fangtasia]

Guess they might still be friends...

[Kendra]

Lucas wrote: "Jerry wrote: "Fangtasia wrote: "Wait, wait! Aves handed in his "strictly bottom" card a long time ago!"

Maybe so but yesterday he decided we had better start looking for some big muscular macho to..."

So yeah, now he needs to tell that story! A...what!?! Lucas, you totally left us hanging here! And now I have this burning need to see what type of man would *clears throat* inspire the lovely Aves. I miss his attitude on here :-) I have never seen anyone flounce off a computer screen the way he does.

[Hector]

Yes, sure Aves and I can b friends.

As for me, it's very easy to find a top for me :) I admit, handsome muscled macho porn-star-like tops get me excited... BUT reality is not like M/M romance or erotica.

I just long to be loved... And I will make him the happiest and luckiest gay man ever! So I'm pretty much ok with any top man, at any age. As long as he doesn't mind long distance coz Im not anywhere near US. I'm actually closer to Australia :)

It should hv been easier to help me find a top bf :D I hope....

[A.B.]

Check out this blog post on the subject and the comments, especially the last one from Marshall. http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_...

[Kim]

I just read one of those shifter series books (don't judge me!!!) and (shouldn't be surprised that I) ran into every single cliche bemoaned on the Gayology 101 thread, the What I Hate About M/M thread, and every other complaint thread I am now regretting reading ... seriously I think the only thing missing was the 'scissoring' thing.

But what really topped it off was that one of the MC's was like 45 - and referred to repeatedly as middle-aged','too old' for ... whatever, 'silver fox', 'middle-aged' (did I mention that one already?)

You know, don't bother trying to write the age-gap romance if you're going to make it all, like, surprising that the antique dude can actually still get it up. Grrrr. Not that I can put it all on this particular book, since I've read the same slurs of a 35 year old in another book I can no longer remember -- which is just another one of those problems with us elderly folks and I just managed completely undermined my entire argument, didn't I.

[[deleted user]]

A.B. wrote: "Check out this blog post on the subject and the comments, especially the last one from Marshall. http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_..."

That's an interesting view of M/M romance vs Gay fiction but people shouldn't think it's got to be one or the other. Guys like me like M/M romance and Gay fiction love stories but they are different categories not a competition. It's like saying I like illustrated fiction but not graphic novels. That's silly forcing people to choose "labels" like they are opposing teams playing agains each other.

[A.B.]

Lucas wrote: "That's silly forcing people to choose "labels" like they are opposing teams playing agains each other."

L think the problem comes when people read one expecting the other and vice versa. Expectations and preconceptions play a big part in someone's enjoyment of a book. Even within the genre you can get weird reactions. I had one reviewer say:
I'm not rating it because it was absolutely the wrong book for me at the time I read it.
I wanted a slutty, dirty fic and this is . . . well . . . not. I wanted cheetos and coke drunk straight from the bottle, on a rug at the beach, and this is a fine restaurant meal.
They did rate it later, giving it 4 stars, but the more m/m romance follows tropes, the narrower people's expectations will be.
When a small number of writers churn out a trashy book each month and the hundreds of loyal fans keep on buying them, then it's going to be difficult for people trying to write a different kind of romance, to reach the audience that may enjoy it.

[[deleted user]]

Kim wrote: "I just read one of those shifter series books (don't judge me!!!) and (shouldn't be surprised that I) ran into every single cliche bemoaned on the Gayology 101 thread, the What I Hate About M/M thr..."

Hey when you are reading about creatures who change from beasts to humans you cannot expect them to act like real-life gay guys

I know all my werewolf and alien friends act a little strange and they are very fond of scissoring and "daddy"/"son" role play.

<-silly-grin->

Lucas

[Lori S.]

Lucas wrote: "A.B. wrote: "Check out this blog post on the subject and the comments, especially the last one from Marshall. http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_..."

That's ..."

An interesting discussion on the differences of the two genres. It's made me thoughtful. I enjoy both for different reasons for the past several years and I think Mr. Thornton has a point.

[Jerry]

A.B. wrote: "Check out this blog post on the subject and the comments, especially the last one from Marshall. http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_..."

Thank you for pointing out this post. I very much enjoyed the writers point of view. I wish everyone would not be so judgmental period. To be so intent on an extremely narrow focused genre and to expect every book you read to hit all your expectations, well how boring! Also perhaps you need a different set of friends who will only recommend those books that ou know you will like. As for me, "life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death" to quote Auntie Mame.

[Fangtasia]

Ah... *beatific smile* Let me take a moment to express how grateful I am for my GR friends, and the wonderful feeling of shared thoughts and opinions.

A.b, thanks for pointing out Marshall's blog post. Very interesting reading. And you are correct that reader expectations influence enjoyment of a book. I'd go a step further and say that, as your reviewer clearly pointed out, expectation is 90% of opinion. She was objective enough not to rate immediately after reading because it would not have been a fair review, she had been looking for something completely different. She wanted comfort food and found caviar.

Lucas, and Jerry: On the topic of M/M and Gay Fiction, you say it better than I ever could.

[[deleted user]]

Fangtasia wrote: "Ah... *beatific smile* Let me take a moment to express how grateful I am for my GR friends, and the wonderful feeling of shared thoughts and opinions..."

Fangtasia you look lovely today. Is that fresh blood you're wearing? It's exquisite~!

Also thanks for you comments because I very much respect your opinion and always look forward to your sage postings.

[Fangtasia]

Lucas wrote: "Fangtasia you look lovely today. Is that fresh blood you're wearing? It's exquisite~!

Also thanks for you comments because I very much respect your opinion and always look forward to your sage postings..."

Yes, A negative, thank you. I do feel good wearing it! And thank you for the other comment, too.

[A.B.]

Getting back to labels and Marshall Thornton's blog. I think one of the main points he was making was that on best seller lists where m/m romance is lumped in with gay fiction, it's very difficult for the latter to feature. His comment about Alan Hollinghurst's publisher avoiding the "LGBT" classification completely makes it difficult for people wanting to find new books where the emphasis is on the essence of being gay and how that affects their world.

[Aves]

Jerry wrote: "My husband loves sex in the morning...I need to douch, he needs it bloody hot in the bedroom, but we do manage.
"

I gave up on douching a looong time ago, after having wasted a lot of money and time on all sorts of devices, contraptions and machinery that only ended up making a far bigger mess than the one I wanted to avoid. All I do now is eat a high fibre diet, throw in psyllium fibre husk in a juice smoothie I drink every morning, and just make sure I take a shower before I get started with my partner. No fuss, no muss, no mess, and my insides remain clean as a whistle.

One more bit of advice for bottoms: no Thai food or Mexican food for up to ten hours before playing Hide the Sausage.

Sex in the morning is simply out of the question these days. I first noticed the change a few years ago. My body has a fascistic lock hold on the “rhythm of my metabolic processes” and with remarkable, metronomic predictability, my lower vital body parts transform from a recreation area to a waste disposal unit, leaving me with the unequivocal impression that attempting sex during those early morning hours is going to meet with disastrous results.

I hate that m/m romance never brings any of this stuff up!

[A.B.]

Lol. Loo. Lol. Or out! Because if they do the author gets howls of protests from women. Ask Don Shecter!

[Lori S.]

That's because it's so romantic to discuss. :op

[Aves]

Lori wrote: "That's because it's so romantic to discuss. :op"

Yeah, I know… it’s sort of like watching those old family sitcoms where Bill Cosby kisses Mrs. Cosby first thing when they wake up in the morning, and no one watching wants to think, “Ewwww, morning breath”.

[Jerry]

Remember I don't get enough sex as it is and so I take it whenever I can get it, so if he wants morning sex, then so do I.
And yes I am quite regular as you are so douching is the best alternative.

[[deleted user]]

@Jerry & Aves

And this is kind of stuff you guys talked about over lunch in sunny Santa Barbara—Metabolic process and Regularity? These topics, and lets not forget douching versus fiber, would make for great dialogue in a M/M Romance.

[A.B.]

Bottoms Banter over Breakfast.

[Jerry]

First, it was La Jolla
Second, it was lunch
Third, we talked about a lot of things including the cute guys at the next table and I don't believe we discussed our sanitary habits. We did dwell on Aves' Captain and how long the relationship might last.
The last topic is ripe for exploitation in novel or serial form.

[A.B.]

Aves has a new guy? Since when? And another Captain? Does his wife know? Or is this one available?!!!

[Jerry]

Yes he has a Captain, but the guy is divorcing his wife and just coming to realize he likes men too. He flies lots of international routes and Aves thinks that A is just a convenience and not a real love interest. So another "good to get while you can" but don't pin any hopes there.
Aves explains this in a few of these threads, you have to go back and find....

[[deleted user]]

A.B. wrote: "Aves has a new guy? Since when? And another Captain? Does his wife know? Or is this one available?!!!"

Hi A.B.,

In the upper right under the Complaint Department areas there is a box to search our discussions. Start by ending "widebody" (without the quotes) in the search box then click the search button. it ought to bring up a few conversations regarding Aves and Captain Widebody <-grin->

You will find a few postings like this one:

Girl, you ain't heard nuthin', until some arrogant but handsome and well-hung captain flying international, long-haul routes, looking for all the world like some silver-haired Hercules, gets you alone in his hotel room and says, "Hurry up and get your hot, tight, Asian ass over here. You know where THIS big ole widebody's goin'!"

[A.B.]

Thanks, Lucas. He sounds charming, lol.

[[deleted user]]

Wearing condoms in books gets on my last nerve. How can you give a decent blow job with a condom on? Can't we just suspend all the health warnings for the sake of HOT literature? How can a guy plug his juices in the sub's ass? Yeah right...

The other thing that bothers me is all the damn prep a guy gets before the Dom penetrates him. Really? Do guys really need so many days, weeks to prepare? I don't remember having a special prep before I had my first anal sex. I did not need to wear a butt plug or be stretched out for months on end. Lube and fingers first can do it the same damn day.

[Ije the Devourer of Books]

Ann wrote: "Wearing condoms in books gets on my last nerve. How can you give a decent blow job with a condom on? Can't we just suspend all the health warnings for the sake of HOT literature? How can a guy plu..."


I find this interesting because I am the opposite. I like my characters in m/m stories to wear a condom. I think this is simply because of my work in the HIV sector and it is really hard to switch that part of me off.

Recently I have started reading m/f romance and I always have a 'wot no condom'? moment of dissaproval when reading these books because condom usage is largely absent.

I think this is one of the things about the reading experience where a persons experience of life meets fiction and the way in which a person reacts to fiction can be influenced by their life experiences.

[Aves]

Ijeoma wrote: "I always have a 'wot no condom'? moment of dissaproval when reading these books because condom usage is largely absent.
"

That’s very, very interesting, Ijeoma. My reaction is the total opposite, closer to Ann’s. I have a “dang, a condom?!” moment of of being irked. I think I know the reason why too. In my real life, I play safely and condom use is naturally a part of sex, much like taking a shower before getting started.

When I get into reading, my mind switches and I don’t want to be reminded of pedestrian practicalities of sex. Without meaning to sound glib, perhaps reading about bareback sex is the safest form of safe sex after all.

[Ije the Devourer of Books]

Maybe authors include condom usage to avoid being accused of promoting unsafe sex. I read all sorts of graphic novels and comics and I have noticed that if a graphic novel has a story line and the characters are having sex without a condom then there is always a little warning at the beginning or the end of the book to say that the book isnt promoting unsafe sex and a condom should always be used.

But I have never seen messages about smoking or drinking. It is interesting.

[[deleted user]]

I am from the era where we did not use condoms until Aids came out loud and clear. I don't know but being married currently, condoms are not needed but of course when you are in a committed relationship condoms are not necessary either unless you have cause to worry. But when I read, I want wild unsafe sex and take my chances. I promote safe sex to students. But I like to feel wild when I read. I don't know.

[Jerry]

Being very honest, I am very thankful my husband and I don't need to use condoms. I feel stongly that uncommitted relationships and obviously for casual sex, the guys need to use condoms.
When we watch porn, we like bareback and I guess, who knows if that's safe or not? They say those involved have been tested.
When I read it, I want it to be real for that time and place. Contemporary stories need to use condoms, historical, obviously not. It's now a fact of life and since I want realistic stories, I guess that means they need to deal with communicable diseases in a meaningful way.
Interesting that I prefer porn without condoms yet I want my books to deal with it realistically.

[Macky]

Its interesting in shifter stories that the shifter is always immune to human diseases, he's always 'clean' so the human ' mate' is also safe regardless of whether he's been practising safe sex or not. Fantasy and poetic licence gives the author a way out of condom use so you've covered the safe sex argument but in real life you can't write a way out of it. I get that erotic stories are far more enjoyable when constraints are thrown to the wind but I have to say I'd much rather see safe sex practiced in a story, at least as the story progresses condoms can be discarded when the guys are tested and the tests are negative for both. I remember the aids epidemic when it first reared its appalling, evil ,ugly head, I remember the awful backlash and I remember being bombarded by aids awareness so I suppose that's why however much I love the idea of bareback ... So much more sensual and sexy ... my sensible side says condoms please.

[Fangtasia]

Macky wrote: "...but I have to say I'd much rather see safe sex practiced in a story, at least as the story progresses condoms can be discarded when the guys are tested and the tests are negative for both. I remember the aids epidemic when it first reared its appalling, evil ,ugly head, I remember the awful backlash and I remember being bombarded by aids awareness so I suppose that's why however much I love the idea of bareback ... So much more sensual and sexy ... my sensible side says condoms please..."

Agree with you wholeheartedly, Macky. As a matter of fact, I've seen the "Damn! No condoms! What do we do now?!?" plot twist put to good use. Of course, there's always non-intercourse options, but it's particularly useful when the guys finally want to have intercourse and can't because they are not prepared.

[Macky]

Thanks Fang! Don't get me wrong I'm no prude. I won't stop reading a book if the non condom issue comes up... I just do a lot of mental tutting and head shaking. Perhaps that sounds hypocritical but of course deep down we all know these are just stories so no ones really going to be in danger unless its in the plot, but Its that inbuilt protective nature that makes me not be able to condone it and the worry that someone reading it will not think about the health risks and go out and reproduce it in real life. A high majority of people probably won't because of common sense but it only takes one!

[Lori S.]

Macky wrote: "I have to say I'd much rather see safe sex practiced in a story, at least as the story progresses condoms can be discarded when the guys are tested and the tests are negative for both. I remember the aids epidemic when it first reared its appalling, evil ,ugly head, I remember the awful backlash and I remember being bombarded by aids awareness..."

Oh those were the days, I remember them well, unfortunately.

If it's fantasy/SF or what-have-you go for it, but when it comes to dealing with stories set in contemporary times, condoms are a yes-yes.

[Macky]

Lori wrote: "Macky wrote: "I have to say I'd much rather see safe sex practiced in a story, at least as the story progresses condoms can be discarded when the guys are tested and the tests are negative for both..."

Yes yes I agree:D

[Kendra]

Lori wrote: "Macky wrote: "I have to say I'd much rather see safe sex practiced in a story, at least as the story progresses condoms can be discarded when the guys are tested and the tests are negative for both..."

So, I know I am late to the condom discussion but what I have found, with both m/f and m/m romance is that when a condom isn't used or mentioned, I begin to think of it as a plot device. Meaning that it is going to factor at some point as part of the story. For m/f, usually it leads to an unexpected pregnancy and for m/m it begins the discussion of testing. Either way, I do notice if they aren't in the story, unless, like Lori said, it is fantasy, SF, or set in a different time period.

[A.B.]

Kendra wrote: " Either way, I do notice if they aren't in the story, unless, like Lori said, it is fantasy, SF, or set in a different time period."

I wonder if this aspect adds to the popularity of these genres!

[Lori S.]

Kendra wrote: "... that when a condom isn't used or mentioned, I begin to think of it as a plot device."

Oh yes, Susanne Brockmann has used that plot point a number of times in her Troubleshooters series. A couple of her female characters have ended up pregnant thanks to the heat of the moment, as it were.

[Lori S.]

A.B. wrote: "Kendra wrote: " Either way, I do notice if they aren't in the story, unless, like Lori said, it is fantasy, SF, or set in a different time period."

I wonder if this aspect adds to the popularity o..."

I wouldn't be surprised.

[Kendra]

A.B. wrote: "Kendra wrote: " Either way, I do notice if they aren't in the story, unless, like Lori said, it is fantasy, SF, or set in a different time period."

I wonder if this aspect adds to the popularity o..."

Good point! Sometimes it's nice NOT to think about everything bad that can happen in a story set in this time period and this "reality"

[Jerry]

Macky wrote: "Its interesting in shifter stories that the shifter is always immune to human diseases, he's always 'clean' so the human ' mate' is also safe regardless of whether he's been practising safe sex o..."

My husband and I went thru this as well and yet we still dislike seeing a condom used in gay porn but then wonder if the testing was used for condomless sex. Interesting paradox.
Huffington Post is showing a new condom that is supposed to be better than the current ones. Except its not due on the market till 2015.

[Major English (Laura)]

I think my mind always likes to see the lube and condom mentioned in stories.. But I agree, I think a lot of times the use of condoms are a plot device. I think a lot of times just the idea of not using condoms or the discussion about not using condoms (if there is one) suggests that the characters are faithful, loving and monogamous, like the skin to skin contact represents their full consummation of the relationship. If its a casual thing, I definitely want to see condoms mentioned.

I read a lot of "first time" romances where the two MCs aren't sexually experienced, and i think that this is the only time where I see the no need for condoms. Either that or when the characters really trust each other and are in love and know that they are safe. But I'm not bothered by condom usage.

I stopped reading Rainbow High because one of the MCs, a teenager, had anonymous sex wih a stranger and even though he was a member of an LGBT group where they stressed safe sex, he "forgot" to use one. And he fears he has HIV and then begins a relationship with a guy who has HIV and they talk about it like HIV is not a big deal at all and you take some pills and you will be okay. The whole thing ticked me off, the naïveté and obnoxiousness of it, especially amongst teens and since it's a YA book. So I had to stop reading.

[A.B.]

The reaction to "Red+Blue" was interesting as a lot of the book revolves around the risk of getting HIV.

Some readers thought my characters dismissed risks too easily or should have become angrier. I wanted to deal with the growing trend within the younger generation to regard it just as a treatable disease.

As one of the minor characters does become HIV+ and I do want to write a book with him as the star. This issue will become even more crucial.

It was difficult to get the balance right. I felt there would be a certain amount of bravado going on.

One major publisher refused to touch it as it was too "deep" a subject for m/m romance.

Thank God for Dreamspinner.

[Macky]

Major English (Laura) wrote: "I think my mind always likes to see the lube and condom mentioned in stories.. But I agree, I think a lot of times the use of condoms are a plot device. I think a lot of times just the idea of not ..."

I agree Laura, I think its the casual sex and no condoms that I don't like. The other points about committed relationships and first time sex are a different thing but of course its still all boils down to trust. You also get scenes where the sex happens ' in the moment ' and nobody has a condom, but the protags come up with " its ok Im safe I was only tested last week please believe me because I'm so horny I can't stop" excuse. If it was real life would you really trust that person who you've only just met? I don't know, perhaps I tend to over think things. I think in gay sex particularly, the consequences tend to veer towards HIV and if its used as a plot device to highlight the consequences then of course again that's different . I loved A B's Red & Blue and I think we can all be a bit Bravado about sex especially when we're younger. Apart from the threat of pregnancy when I was a young lass ( but then us girlies had the pill to fall back on in that issue) condoms weren't as much of an issue, yep there was the threat of STD's but they were treatable and I have to say I took chances then and thankfully was lucky but then Aids struck and I realised JUST how lucky I was! So perhaps that's another reason I think more about stuff now that I'm older and hopefully wiser.

[A.B.]

Here's how the Master, Jack Brighton does it in his section at the front:
"All sexually active characters in this work are 18 years of age or older. As a piece of erotic fantasy where licence can be taken, certain scenes involve umprotected sex. This has been done to enhance the story and not to condone the practice. In real life, safe sex should be practiced at all times."

And then he gets down real dirty and raunchy, lol. Definitely not m/m romance.