What I really hate in m/m romance stories

[Therese]

Lori wrote: "
I've never come across Plain Gay Fiction. Is that a new genre or something? >curious<"

Plain as in "normal". I bet they don't contain any kind of sex involving tentacles;-) But what do I know, simple girl that I am...

[Lori S.]

Ah ... I see. I've read very little tentacle play - frankly, I'm baffled as to why it's so popular, but each to her own. :-)

[Preston, Moderator]

Lori wrote: "Roger wrote: "
Plain
gay fiction?"

I've never come across Plain Gay Fiction. Is that a new genre or something? >curious<"

William S. Burroughs, Gore Vidal, and others who write books that are unbearable torture to read are in the plain gay fiction category.

Plain gay fiction (PGF) isn't gay romance, or gay erotica, or gay love stories, or even as Roger suggests gay pulp fiction which seems to have more to do with the cover than anything else. PGF doesn't include Expanding Dildo and Ogre Cock Gay Fiction which Akhil is trying to establish as a genre. It's not a genre yet by wait a few weeks and it might pop up in the M/M Romance Group bookshelves.
>grin<

[Lori S.]

LOL

[Roger]

PGF and GPF (Gay Pulp Fiction) are only a letter reverse apart. Very confusing.

[Therese]

Roger wrote: "PGF and GPF (Gay Pulp Fiction) are only a letter reverse apart. Very confusing."

Roger, I'm sorry for assuming you only read PGF...I was just scrolling through reviews for a story I want to read, First Watch, and all the sudden your review popped up. I'm glad you enjoyed it;-)

[Roger]

Therese wrote: "Roger wrote: "PGF and GPF (Gay Pulp Fiction) are only a letter reverse apart. Very confusing."

Roger, I'm sorry for assuming you only read PGF...I was just scrolling through reviews for a story I ..."

Someone once described very kindly as a "reading whore," though I disagree if one thinks of the books being the whores, enticing the johns with their delectable goodies. So I'm perhaps better described as a "reading punter"!

"Eclectic" in taste might be a better description. `:-))

[Preston, Moderator]

Roger wrote: ""Eclectic" in taste might be a better description. `:-))..."

Not just as a reader, author Roger Kean is rather eclectic as a writer too.

[Roger]

That's it, as a writer I'm just all over the place…

[Preston, Moderator]

I hate it when M/M Romance writers use terms like the other man, the younger man, the taller man, etc. There are only two men in that bed and if the writer can't convey to the reader what is happening without saying 'the other man' then that is a very bad writer. If it a distinction must be made the writer should just use the guy's name. ARrghh! I hate 'the other man'.

[Eric]

Perhaps this is the wrong place to say this, but what the hell. I hate the fact that the idea of love at first sight has its very own mocking, pejorative term: insta-love. The realization that this term even exists, and carries that connotation, was brought home tonight by the second review that disliked the fact that DarkFire and Jerril fell in love at first sight...okay, first grope.

Y'see, that's what happened with us. Back in '65, he saw me dancing (not well, I'm sure) and for some reason, despite the geek that I was and remain, he was intrigued. Later, I was passing him by on the way to the men's room (legitimate visit, not cruise visit) when that audacious (for him) grope happened. I stopped, we talked, we danced, I ditched the guy I was sort of with, he ditched his friends, and essentially, we were together for thirty and a half years until the aneurysm took him away.

So I guess the point of my cautionary tale is: it bloody well does happen.

And I think if I have any more characters in any more stories or books who fall in love at first sight, I'll write their tales anyway.

So sayeth the Eric as he endeth the rant.

[Roger]

Well said, Eric! I am the embodiment of love at first sight, because it happened for me in college in January 1969 (at least, on my side; the 'other man' took a bit of persuading, but got there eventually). He walked into the induction room already crowded with some 40 students eager to start their film careers and I fell head over heels, and 45 years later, I still am (so's he :-))

@ Preston: Other Men are essential ingredients of good creative writing, just as much as Younger Men. I'm particularly fond of the Taller Men and their inevitable partners the Toned Men. And when a touch of variety is called for, the Other Guy works well for me. Then there's the Frat Lads, the Thug Boys, the Well Endowed Ones… oh, I could go on, and on, and on…

[Akhil]

I don't think that the anxiety about 'popular' discourse or the mainstream discourse depicting love at first sight is with regard to mocking it by reducing it to mere something mythical. I don't think it invisiblizes individual's lived realities in any way. While I sincerely and humbly respect your perception of love because one's experiences become one's law, what I think becomes problematic is that how it in certain ways sets a standard of this idea of certain norms or behaviours becoming a hegemonic one. How THAT depiction symbolizes and institutionalizes what true love ought to be or is supposed to be.

In fact, much criticism against codifying emotions in law comes from the fact that what we know of emotions is often what we have seen it as a performance and how it has socially been constructed.

The point of critique does not mean that it is eradicating or demolishing the idea but questions the foundations of where that idea is stemming from. To become self-aware.

[Lori S.]

To Eric and Roger: Wow.

Preston: I agree with you about how authors seem to be unable to describe "the other man".

On the subject of "insta-love", I think most people don't believe it's possible and science, being that most skeptical of tools, tends to agree that's it's not possible. Yet, science has been known to get the wrong end of the stick and humans are far more complex than I think some folks would like to admit. I've seen actual human pair bondings in action, why not love at first sight? Anything is possible.

[Preston, Moderator]

Akhil wrote: "I don't think that the anxiety about 'popular' discourse or the mainstream discourse depicting love at first sight is with regard to mocking it by reducing it to mere something mythical. I don't th..."

Akhil my friend! So good to see you join the conversation. It was love at first sight when I saw your photo. Don't be in a big hurry to get another boyfriend because I might still go to India to chase after you until you give in. You are smart, kind and the the most handsome man in the world~! Anyone who is not in love with you is crazy.

Your not so secret admirer,
Preston xxx ooo

[Akhil]

I am forever figuring out if Preston and Boyd are being sarcastic or genuine.

[Roger]

Maybe somewhere in the middle… ironic?

[Preston, Moderator]

Roger wrote: "Maybe somewhere in the middle… ironic?"

Is this ironic? I keep two photos on my desktop. One is of your partner and the other photo is this:

[Roger]

Aaawwww… It's a great laughy-smile!

[Preston, Moderator]

What I really hate about M/M Romance stories: the gay for you (fantasy) plot.

[Lori S.]

Yeah, I'm no fan to GFY theme either and I find it hard to suspend my disbelief while reading it. It would be one thing if one of the characters is dealing with suppressed emotions over his/her orientation due to whatever pressures s/he's dealing with, societal, religious or other reasons, but when it's a straight guy whose attention has always been strictly hetero, it's a hard sell for me.

Case in point: I wanted to read something similar to a book I've been following online a while back, so I went into to a recommend thread, gave the example and got back a suggestion for Mary Calmes' book Change of Heart. Basic plot sounded promising, the main character would have been alright, but his potential mate turns out to be straight and is perturbed to find he has a male mate.

Yet, through some power of osmosis or some other process never truly explained [except a twinkle in the eye and a coy "I'm your mate, of course I know how to do this."], he knows exactly how to have intimate relations with his gay mate. There were a lot of other problems with the plot beyond that, but I just couldn't buy into the alpha character's change in orientation. I honestly do not know how this book gets high praise from other readers. 'Course, I'm not a fan of Calmes' writing style either.

[Lori S.]

>>>>>><><<<<<<
Something that's begun to annoy me is the way some authors use asexuality as a form of suppressed sexual feelings: "Character X has never felt sexual attraction to the opposite/same sex until character Y shows up and shows X his true feelings. Up until then, X figured he was asexual." There may also be feelings of being pathetic and backward mixed into this plot too (because being ace means you don't view certain aspects of relationships in the same light as the majority and sometimes have been tromped upon by said majority for not sharing the same view points).

Now, I've only seen it in a few places, esp. online freebie fiction (including some of the M/M Romance Group stories), but I find it annoys me no end. If you're going to have an asexual character, let that character be asexual. If character X is demisexual, that's cool too, and would actually fit the above description, but be clear about the terminology.


Wow, didn't know I needed to get that out. It's been building for a while.

[Preston, Moderator]

Lori wrote: ">>>>>><<<<<<
Something that's begun to annoy me is the way some authors use asexuality as a form of suppressed sexual feelings: "Character X has never felt sexual attraction to the opposite/same se..."

This business of saying someone is asexual until the other MC shows up is a total lack of understanding of asexuality and is harmful because it feeds into the repulsive idea that she or he just needs to get f***ed (in the extreme raped.)

[Lori S.]

Preston wrote: "This business of saying someone is asexual until the other MC shows up is a total lack of understanding of asexuality and is harmful because it feeds into the repulsive idea that she or he just needs to get f***ed (in the extreme raped.)"

There are people on AVEN who've encountered real world versions of this thinking. It's disgusting.

[Glenn]

Expanding Dildo and Ogre Cock Gay Fiction? This exists? SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!! Where oh where can this be found?

[Eric]

Aw, gee, golly whiz.

Everyone has a rant on something important and me, I'm just thoroughly annoyed by an almost really good book I've been reading where the author...like all too many other MM romance writers these days...uses the words "hunny" and "hun."

Argh.

The correct affectionate terms, as all you erudite folks know, are "honey" and the shortened "hon."

Argh2.

>g<

Eric-the-honey-of-a-writer-himself

[Lori S.]

Eric wrote: "Aw, gee, golly whiz.

Everyone has a rant on something important and me, I'm just thoroughly annoyed by an almost really good book I've been reading where the author...like all too many other MM ro..."

Well, if an author is going to use a word, s/he should use the correct spelling of it! So, I agree with you. :)

[Gabbo]

Lori wrote: "Yeah, I'm no fan to GFY theme either and I find it hard to suspend my disbelief while reading it. It would be one thing if one of the characters is dealing with suppressed emotions over his/her ori..."

Talking about GFY, I'm re-reading Bayou's End and here's this alpha heterosexual werewolf that discovers his true mate is a man and not just any man but a gay man!

I think that one person can be homosexual for another (since it can happen to girls and boys), but it has to be based on not just sexual attraction, it has to do more with feelings since our feelings should be beyond exterior images or appearances, thus GFY insta-love is not just farfetched but seriously incongruent fiction.

[Lori S.]

It is possible to be heterosexual while also being bi/homo-romantic (or pan or aromantic [lacking a romantic desire - waves]). Romantic orientation is separate from sexual orientation, so it is possible for such a person to exist (check AVEN). For most folks though, both do align with each other so it makes it harder for them to see the separation.

Confused yet? I'm still working it out too.

Still, a character who has always orientated to the opposite sex both sexually and romantically would probably struggle with the fact that his/her mate is of the same sex and that's one of the main problems with insta-love stories.

[Averin]

Gabbo wrote: "Lori wrote: "Yeah, I'm no fan to GFY theme either and I find it hard to suspend my disbelief while reading it. It would be one thing if one of the characters is dealing with suppressed emotions ove..."

"Seriously incongruent fiction" I like that. The phrase, not the plot.

[Lori S.]

Averin wrote: ""Seriously incongruent fiction" I like that. The phrase, not the plot."

It could make for a good plot.

[Gabbo]

Yep, a MM romance set in Dr Seuss's Whoville. That would be something. I'm just laughing my ass off thinking of the rhymes for the sexy scenes.

[Roger]

Wow… that was really very intellectual, huns…

[Eric]

Roger wrote: "Wow… that was really very intellectual, huns…"

Cute, Roger, really cute.

"huns" indeed.

Next I suppose you'll be calling me "Boche" because of my German background?

Harumph!

>g<

Eric-the-hurt-hon

[Roger]

It's okay, Eric-the-hurt-hon, I'm either writing about the "wily Pathan" or the fanatic Voortrekker Boer at the moment. No "Bosches" in this one. :-))

Harry's Great Trek is in its final throes of writing… and it has been a trek…

[Preston, Moderator]

I hate chicks-with-dicks stories where you could just change the pronoun for one on the MCs and it would be a heterosexual story.

[Lori S.]

Preston wrote: "I hate chicks-with-dicks stories where you could just change the pronoun for one on the MCs and it would be a heterosexual story."

I think I've only ever come across one of these types of stories on Smashwords. It was very weird, since I'd be reading along and when the text should've said "he" it said "she". Gender crisis!

What would you say are the elements which really differentiate the two genres (m/f|m/m)? What makes them unique from each other? What makes them similar? Always interesting questions, or at least I find them interesting.

[Gabbo]

What I really hate about M/M stories is when to guys are about to have sex and the writer, as one guy prepares the other for penetration, uses the expression "scissoring." Seriously, that needs to be a reaaaally loose hole to be able to make that "motion" with two fingers. It just drives me nuts.

Maybe that is one of those things that could qualify to differentiate the two genders, since when you have your fingers inside a man there is no real reason for that "motion." double grrr.

[Averin]

Just read Fair Play this week, and then I read the reviews. Funny how this is the first Lanyon I've read in a while where the sex scenes were more like reading gay erotica--one MC finally acknowledged that he needed to be submissive in bed to the other. But it wasn't D/s etc. I think names/pronouns could have been switched and readers of m/f would have loved it. But reviewers are all "I don't like BDSM". That wasn't what was happening at all.

[Lori S.]

Averin wrote: "Just read Fair Play this week, and then I read the reviews. Funny how this is the first Lanyon I've read in a while where the sex scenes were more like reading gay erotica--one MC f..."

I think part of the problem is that the meanings aren't very clear, that it's possible to have someone more 'bossy'? in bed without resorting to D/s or BDSM games. I have trouble with keeping the two ideas straight, myself.

I like the dynamics between Elliott and Tucker (and Kit and J.X., too, since they have something similar going on).

[Eric]

Gabbo wrote: "What I really hate about M/M stories is when to guys are about to have sex and the writer, as one guy prepares the other for penetration, uses the expression "scissoring." Seriously, that needs to ..."

Absolutely right, Gabbo. It's more about the twisting and turning and pumping to get a bit of relaxation going. And of course there's always the benefit of a third finger. >s<

But right along with "scissoring" is this whole "burn" thing. If you're not literally on fire, a burn is the result of friction. As in those friction burns on your knees when you're vigorously post-scissored doggy style on the carpet, because the two of you were too horny to wait for the bed.

Only, in the stories, this "burn" happens after both body parts (see how delicate I'm being?) are well lubed. So if the inside of the bottom and the outside of the top are really all greasy, slickery and slippy there's nothing to generate friction that could result in a burning sensation. Enough friction, of course, particularly with repeated insertions and removals in escalating rhythms and varying angling and circularizing, to get all warm and hot and sorta kinda spurty...but no burn. >snicker<

Just my USD .02 in a never-humble-way.

Eric

[Gabbo]

Yeah, there is so much gay porn free on the net that if these writers took a minute to watch (and enjoy) it they would know how certain fantasy mechanisms work.

[Lori S.]

Eric wrote: "Gabbo wrote: "What I really hate about M/M stories is when to guys are about to have sex and the writer, as one guy prepares the other for penetration, uses the expression "scissoring." Seriously, ..."

I am very glad that I had no food in my mouth when I read your post, else it would've been all over my Kindle. Thanks for the clarification!

[Lori S.]

Gabbo wrote: "Yeah, there is so much gay porn free on the net that if these writers took a minute to watch (and enjoy) it they would know how certain fantasy mechanisms work."

Where's the fun in that?

[Gabbo]

Lori wrote: "Gabbo wrote: "Yeah, there is so much gay porn free on the net that if these writers took a minute to watch (and enjoy) it they would know how certain fantasy mechanisms work."

Where's the fun in t..."

I really don't understand your question hahahahhaa.

[Lori S.]

Gabbo wrote: "I really don't understand your question hahahahhaa."

No biggie. My point was that it's easier to make things up (which might not actually work in reality) than to go do some real research.

[Eric]

Lori wrote: "Gabbo wrote: "I really don't understand your question hahahahhaa."

No biggie. My point was that it's easier to make things up (which might not actually work in reality) than to go do some real res..."

My God, Gabbo! You're brilliant!

THANK YOU!

I hadn't realized that all these decades of gay porn watching and reading was actually engaging in real research in preparation for the start of my writing career.

>snicker2<

Eric-the-ever-grateful

[Gabbo]

No biggie. My point was that it's easier to make things up (which might not actually work in reality) than to go do some real res..."

Someone once said, "The easy thing is not always the best or the right thing."

I respect every point of view, and I just need to add that one thing is to make something up because no body is sure of how it is, and another to just change genders hahahahaha, you can scissor a girl but it's really hard to scissor a man, not impossible, just weird hahahahhaha.

[Gabbo]

Eric wrote: "Lori wrote: "Gabbo wrote: "I really don't understand your question hahahahhaa."

No biggie. My point was that it's easier to make things up (which might not actually work in reality) than to go do ..."

Great fiction comes from reality; great sex scenes come from exciting visuals.

[Lori S.]

Gabbo wrote: "No biggie. My point was that it's easier to make things up (which might not actually work in reality) than to go do some real res..."

Someone once said, "The easy thing is not always the best or t..."

Speaking as one who's read an awful lot of awful freebie slash fiction, it's been turned into a meme. One person reads another's fiction, thinks "wow, is that how it's done?" and repeats it and so on down the line. And a lot of these writers (though definitely not all) are people in their mid-late teens and early twenties who might have a lot of hormonal energy, but very little real world or practical experience in such matters.