The Malazan Fallen discussion
Malazan Chatter (General stuff)
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Other books in a similar style that we liked
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Gormenghast is flat out genius. Talk about world building! Unfortunately Peake was insane by the third book and I had to give up - it got too hard to make sense of it. But the first 2 are unbelievable! I just got Guy Gavriel's newest out of the libes. I'll read that while I take a break between his 2 &3 of The Alexandra Quarter which has become very special
It's a little bit insensitive to call Peake "insane". The guy was writing Titus Alone while struggling with Parkinson's. I haven't written a book or had Parkinson's, but I'm assuming that it's rather difficult.
What? I didn't know about Parkinsons, I thought he suffered from insanity and had to be institutionalized for his nervous breakdowns. Poor guy, I just read that he had both.It would have been nice to just inform me instead of immediately accusing me of insensitivity.
If you want to understand or appreciate where Steven Erikson's Malazan series "comes from"…there are I think, in my opinion, three books(actually series) to delve into:1.) Homer's The Iliad
2.) Frank Herbert's Dune series
3.) Glen Cook's The Chronicles of the Black Company..
THE ILIAD
The Iliad is probably the grandfather of all "epic fantasy". Or maybe it's Gilgamesh. I don't know. They are all part of the great tradition of epic storytelling. The Kalevala, the norse myths, etc. But why i point the the Iliad as a probably starting off point in terms of inspiration for the Malazan series is because of how I personally experienced it. Like many people, I probably read it when I was a kind in school, and probably understood it the least without the help of the teacher explicitly telling me what was in fact going on and the summaries within our text books. The reason for that is the same way I had a hard time with Shakespeare and Milton when I was kid…it was a work from an older time period, hundreds of years ago. Their use of language, their customs, their cultural mindset…was alien to me. It really does require a mature and open mind to delve into ancient works and derive not just pleasure but also understanding. When I finally did read the Iliad with that mature and open mind, I was stunned, filled with awe and wonder and excitement. The language, the strange customs, the characters, and the Gods who routinely interfered and participated in the lives of mortals.
When I started reading Gardens of the Moon (the first book in the Malazan series), I immediately felt that same sense of awe and wonder that I felt when I re-encountered The Iliad, and I felt a feeling of recognition, as well. Gods interfering in mortal lives, prophecies, curses, the war as soon from the eyes of the warriors fighting, the weird way in which Homer actually starts off the narrative, right in the middle of things (well actually quite some time into the war), and then ends it without actually telling the end of the story (with Achilles giving Prius his son, Hector, to bury).
DUNE
Dune is a sci-fi fantasy series, which by now is considered in some circles to be a classic of the science fiction genre. Though, I think it actually falls more into the realm of epic fantasy to be honest. What "science" there is, actually is treated more like "magic" amongst the people of this universe (the Bene Gesserit, the Guild Navigators, the Mentats…their organic technology are so adept that they appear to be performing magical acts, rather than incredibly advanced technology). And what technology is used is either very utilitarian (shields) or very organic in nature (spice melange, gholas, prana bindu).I think what Erikson got from this series is the courage to just drop the reader into a fully realized world without too much of a map or explanation, and then let the reader discover this universe on their own. Also, the interjection of excerpts from fictitious histories, poems, and journals to help illuminate a subject or to add greater mystery to it. Plus, the incredible scope and breadth of the saga and how its history has shaped the current events, and the problem of prophecy that makes us victims of our own future.
THE BLACK COMPANY
I think that Glen Cook was and has been greatly underestimated. He does not possess a poetic prose style that typically captures the interest of most discerning readers. Nor does he setup stories in a traditional manner. He comes from the Weird Tales Pulp fiction generation (his mentor and idol was the great [and ironically also grossly under appreciated] Fritz Leiber) and so his style is more simple and laconic. It serves the story, rather than draw attention to itself.
I have no doubt that Glen Cook's work greatly inspired Erikson's series. The concept of military fantasy, told from the soldier's perspective; the use of wizards/mages as soldiers and weaponizing magic for military purposes; the odd social custom of using strange descriptive nicknames (aliases) in place of real names (Croaker, One-Eye, Goblin, Howler, Soulcatcher, Limper, Tom-Tom, etc.); the terrifying mercenary group playing a significant role in the shaping of empires and the entire narrative (Bridgeburners, the Crimson Guard); ancient powers buried in barrows, protected by ancient spells, struggling to get out and return back to this world, wrecking havoc; and the use of semi-poetic titles for the books (actually more the Dread Empire series than Black Company, but still).
One thing about his narrative style in the Black Company series: After reading the philosophically steeped descriptive prose that Erikson used on the malazan series, readers of the Black Company will find themselves confronted by an almost rough, and brutal prose style and feel it to be a little jarring. But the reader needs to realize who is telling the story (at first): a soldier. I believe Glen Cook has a military background, because it reminded me of Gustav Hasford's marvellous story of the Vietnam war, The Short-Timers, a book that was told with a brutal, grimly poetic efficiency. Very much like a marine. The mission is simple and straightfoward. They follow their orders, Get in, get the job done, do it better than anyone else. And then move on to the next thing. There is a kind of brutal poetry to that. There's a lot of military shorthand involved in the storytelling and it really does lend itself to the gritty realism of the work.
SUMMARY:
So that's why I've chosen those three books as probably jumping of points for Malazan. I haven't included any modern fantasy novels…not because I don't think they are good; quite the contrary. But because this topic was asking for "like Malazan"…and Erikson's series is so unique that I don't think it quite compares with other work; or rather they don't compare to it very well.
Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire is fantastic. But it's not like Malazan at all. It's like The Tudors…or Cornwell's the Saxon series…but with fantasy elements.
I've only started reading Abercrombies's The Blade itself…it's gritty, yes, and the prose is very exciting. But it seems very character-centric as opposed to the type of epic fantasy and world building that Erikson is concerned about.
Tolkien…apples and oranges.
Anyway, just my humble opinion.
Mod
Dune is one of my favourite books. I think it still stands up pretty well today.
Hey guys!! An FYI Here: I learned this week that "Fall of Light" will be released January 2014! Whooot! :) So, ICE's "Assail" in November, and SE's Fall in Jan, it's going to be a great winter! :) Shells:)
Damn that's the UK date, well I'll just order it from Book Depository.
Its not technically Fantasy, but Iain M Banks Culture books are very good, and as I think of it quite similar to the Fallen books. You have a range of characters from "normal" to god-like, and the stories can span from personal conflicts to world-shattering crisis.Highly recommended!
Chris wrote: "Its not technically Fantasy, but Iain M Banks Culture books are very good, and as I think of it quite similar to the Fallen books. You have a range of characters from "normal" to god-like, and the..."Funny, I read all of those except the most recent, which hadn't been published then, and put them in a similar place in my mind. I'd add to the similarities lots of complicated world-building (though Erikson is much better with that), and a way of being appalled by war but almost morbidly fascinated with it at the same time.
I just found out that one of my favorite authors, Iain Banks, only has months to live; he has cancer that has metastasized thru much of his body.
@all you Cook fans: The Black Company is an awesome series but i'm a bit more partial to his Instrumentalities of the Night series. You can draw a pretty neat parallel between it and Book of the Fallen with the idea that human ingenuity and sheer obstinance are the downfall of Gods(or greater forces in general). Also, maybe check out Tom Lloyd's Twilight Reign series. His white-eyes are some of the greatest bastards you'll ever come to love.
Every time I finished one of the Malazan books (both Erikson and Esslemont's) I felt terrified that I will no longer have anything to read. Most fantasy and sci-fi books I ever read feel like they are not ... "epic enough" now. I've read many people consider Erikson characters flat, but I loved them. The world these authors created is vast, ancient, layered and I never needed to delve deep into a single hero motivations.I haven't found this in any other book. But I still enjoyed some other books and a god portion of them were written by B. Sanderson, and his magic systems are much clearer:
- Elantris, single tome epic fantasy - just finished it, great read, leaves a lot of room for further books.
- Warbreaker, single tome epic fantasy - another great book, amazing magic system, also leaves room for other books in the series.
- Mistborn, epic fantasy trilogy. Mistborn is complete series, yet for all we know all of Sanderson books fit in a larger world, so there is a spin-off in later book. Alomancy is another great magic system, there is also an adventure game based on it. There are some wek spots, but reading the third book mostly clears them, and by the time you get the adventure game (not even intending to play it, it's just full with lore) you will feel the magic system is just brilliant.
- Magic the Gatherin: Artifacts Cycle - I love Magic, and all of its glory fits into this series.
Right now I'm in the middle of The Year of Our War by Steph Swainston and very impressed with it, and I think she'd appeal to a lot of Eriksonians. You get dropped into the middle of a complicated world and a complicated war (you start in the Year of Our War 2015, in fact), with characters that are more interesting than they are likeable, and then it gradually starts to make sense as you read on. Maybe there isn't as much world-building as the Malazan series, but there's still plenty, and I think the style is more polished.
Well i started parallel read of Wheel of time with MBOTF although WOT is your traditional fantasy series i am enjoying the first book Eye of the world.
Mod
I'd say the first 5 or so books are really enjoyable. 6-9 are OK. 10 is downright bad and should probably be skipped in favor of a wiki summary. But I really loved 11-14.
I don't give 5 stars lightly. I've given 1,12 and 14 5 stars. But of course everyone's tastes vary. I've yet to give a single Malazan book 5 stars. Bonehunters was close though.
How could you not like the 10th book? In the first 200 pages, Elayne took a bath, and some Aes Sedai almost arched an eyebrow. Almost.
Mod
You're forgetting all the dress gripping..
Mod
I read to about the same place in WoT as you did Lee. I thought some books were decent and others were tough to get through.But as far as comparing Malazan to WoT, the only thing the two series have in common is being in the fantasy genre. Two completely different series whether you like them or not.
I have not read A Memory of Light yet, but it is on my list. I actually enjoy Sanderson's writing, and I absolutely loved that he cut Nynaeve's braid off. I think the series gets worse once Jordan gave up on making each book stand on its own. I liked the second and third the best.I wish Jordan would actually have used the abilities he gave his characters in an intelligent way. For example, think what Coltaine might have done if he had people who could teleport and then cast untraceable magic salvos at range (the Ashaman are undetectable by Aes Sedai until they've struck). Does anyone use this ability to harry the enemy, to hit and run, to make surgical strikes on Aes Sedai?
(Of course, I sometimes some mage doesn't use some earth agitation ability to make all the Moranth munitions in the Malazan's possession go off at once. But that was Grunts, and not this series.)
Haha that is some awesome imagery Duffy! I think WoT could use a good bit of Coltaine to liven things up. Or maybe Karsa witnessing all over the place.
I think we should not compare WOT and other series because WOT is your typical fantasy genre while MBOTF is your fantasy where you cannot identify the good from bad but as far as i am concerned i don't think MBOTF are flawless because the author tries too hard to hide too many things which becomes irritating after a point, i think Deadhouse gates and Memories of ice are best books in the series while Repeares's Gale and Dust of dreams being worst.Also i just finished Eye of the world and found it awesome for once i was not remembering everything form the back pages but enjoying the ride.
I think its worth comparing them, and in that way you can see some of the strengths and weaknesses in each. Jordan did a fair bit of hiding in WoT as well (for example, he hid what was going on with Verin for the longest time, and I still am not quite so sure what's up with Cadsuane, or where Moraine went when she went into the Ter'Angrael with Lanfear, etc...). And you don't need to check the back of the book when reading EotW, but when you get to the later books, it's almost impossible to keep the Aes Sedai straight. There are so many of them, and they are basically all exactly alike.One thing that both series have in common is that I've read more than 80% of each series twice, but haven't finished either yet. My favorite in WoT are The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn. Jordan's writing went progressively downhill from there, in my opinion, but Sanderson made things more enjoyable for me again (and I liked the last of the Jordan books). In the Malazan world, my favorite is Toll the Hounds, followed by Memories of Ice, Deadhouse Gates and the Bonehunters.
I've had issues with Erikson hiding stuff, and I'm still waiting for him to reveal explicitly the deal that Ganoes made with Hood. But I think the bigger problem people have had with the later books is that Erikson really loves his anthropology/archeology, so he can't resist introducing new tribes and cultures, and exploring them in some depth. But by this point, things are already really complicated, and its hard to try to grow to love or even appreciate the subtleties of yet another new tribe. Thus, we get the alternating chapter syndrome: we love the chapters that deal with our old, familiar friends; we lose patience with the chapters that are forcing new peoples down our throats.
I've had issues with Erikson hiding stuff Also i am waiting for the answer as to who massacred 20,000 imass which we came across when lady envy and her party were traveling with her party.I kind of loved him hiding the stuff at the start but after like book five it become too much to remember stuff and part of frustration is i am 80% done with book nine with no answers in sight.
Mod
Well you did bring it up in a thread of "books in a similar style to Malazan we like." WoT is very different so I think it's worth comparing and contrasting the two.
Mod
I'm not sure I would have read the whole series if I had started it recently. I read it over the course of like 2 years when I was reading little else besides the new Jim Butcher books when they came out.
And how did I forget about The Dragon Reborn? I gave that 5 stars as well. I agree that the series went downhill from there, but not really that severely for me until book 6.
Still I've given only 30 books 5 stars, and 4 of them are Wheel of Time. But I've also given 2 of the books 2 stars..and book 10 probably could be a 1 star book, except I really loved the end of it once I finally got there.
I'm probably even more selective about giving out 1 stars. In fact I've only given it to 1 book so far.
Duffy wrote: "How could you not like the 10th book? In the first 200 pages, Elayne took a bath, and some Aes Sedai almost arched an eyebrow. Almost."HAHAHAHA oh so true, add Nynaeve tugging her braid!
Agree with what everyone said about WoT, but I still continued reading them - loved the world - and am very pleased with how Sanderson finished it.
I just finished The First law trilogy, gods below, it was awesome! Not so complex and deep as Malaz, but still prety good. Dark and not single on of main heroes were pure good or evil.I also borrowed first books of Broken Empire and Mistborn, I hope those would be good, too.
Mistborn is great. Not nearly as complex as Malazan but a fun story. Also skews a little YA.
Dara wrote: "Also skews a little YA."Please repeat in simpler language. :)
The Malazan Fallen
Books mentioned in this topic
The Dragon Reborn (other topics)A Memory of Light (other topics)
The Year of Our War (other topics)
The Way of Kings (other topics)
Words of Radiance (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jim Butcher (other topics)Steph Swainston (other topics)
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