If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list...

[Monty J]

David wrote: " It might be better for a student to read a novel with a more universal theme, rather than one that is so heavily tied to its historical era."

I agree. This is why books like Of Mice and Men, Lord of the Flies and The Catcher in the Rye are so important. They'll never be out of print.

[Fatin]

I agree with Catcher in the Rye, Lord of the Flies, and The Pearl (I read the Pearl in 7th grade.) I also read The Chrysalids, and Carrie's War between 7th to 9th grade. Other books on reading lists and such consisted of Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre, Little Women, Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, The Scarlet Letter, Frankenstein, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. I read many of these back then. But these reading lists weren't forced on us, we were just asked to consider them, and because I was an avid reader, I picked them up.

But as for contemporary novels, I think Speak is a beautiful book, that carries a deep message. It's not written brilliantly or anything, and the main character is very annoying but I can see it touching hearts, and convincing kids, especially young girls, to speak up about what bothers them.
And maybeThe Perks of Being a Wallflower I'm not so sure about that one. But I will admit that it touched me.

As for Dostoevsky and Tolstoy, I think I might have hated them if I had been forced to read them. The same is the case with this book, The Great Gatsby. It has a lot of symbolism, best discovered on its own. Not to be shoved down our throats by teachers. I hated The Pearl when I first read it. But once we were done with it, I picked it up again, and fell in love with it.


The question here is what do we expect these books to do? Do we expect them to change views, to touch hearts, and to help us connect? Or do we expect them to teach us about writing, and symbolism, and analogies, and metaphors?

[Lara]

Fatin: I expect books taught in classes to do all of those things and more. Which is why we have to be so choosey when assigning books. Each book must be worthy on so many levels.

And I prefer to think of myself as helping students to see things differently and encourage them to find meaning where they may not notice it on their own, rather than shoving things down people's throats. It's really not as violent as that.

[Fatin]

I don't think teachers shove their ideas and whatnot down students' throats, but that is the point of view of young students, especially when a book is laden with heavy metaphors and symbolism which are often so concentrated on that what a student might what to think about the story, or if he wants to not concentrate on that one "REALLY IMPORTANT" passage, (s)he is reprimanded. Even moreso when the kid doesn't even like to read, which often makes up for more than 70% of the class.

[Amy]

Lara wrote: "oh, Katie...Please don't give up on Frankenstein. It really is one of the best books ever. Try this: Look for the humanity of the 'monster' and the lack of humanity in the people.

And by all ..."

It depends on state requirements. In SD where I teach, one semester must be composition and grammar each year and one semester is literature each year. With my junior American Lit class, after I get through some early colonial essays, segments of Walden, and some poetry, I only have time for The Great Gatsby, The Crucible, and Of Mice and Men. Sometimes I squeeze another novella into the composition semester. Consider yourself lucky to have the time to do 6 novels a year. I would wonder if you get enough composition and research skills with that many novels?

[Monty J]

Amy wrote: "I would wonder if you get enough composition and research skills with that many novels? "

I think it depends on the level of depth. If you hit them with too much it will discourage them. At the grade school level, I suspect that a few novels covered in depth is better than skipping along the surface of a dozen or more. This is how you learn to appreciate literature, as we do here on Goodreads. By discussing targeted aspects of individual works it forces us deeper into them.

It's like processing ore for gold. Hidden nuggets begin to appear.

[Amy]

Monty J wrote: "Amy wrote: "I would wonder if you get enough composition and research skills with that many novels? "

I think it depends on the level of depth. If you hit them with too much it will discourage the..."

That is exactly what the national common core standards and project based learning are aiming for - depth over breadth. The NCCSS emphasizes non-fiction reading to the tune of 75% non-fiction by junior year.

[Kirby]

have you ever used The Book Thief for your class, Amy? if not, would you like to?

[Lara]

We do plenty of composition, at least one essay per week, along with the reading. And we work grammar in two or three times a week. The novels aren't all we do at any one time. They read the novels at home. In class we discuss, and we read related articles and essays, and work on how to respond to the literature in their own writing. Each class does at least one major research paper/project per semester. It's a full schedule, but we manage.

[LindaJ^]

I don't remember what Shakespeare play and what fiction I had to read as a junior but we had a comprehensive research and writing project in the first half of the year. Then the papers we wrote were read (with author's name removed) by a committee of townspeople and the authors of the top five then participated in a public speaking contest. A panel of judges then chose the best speaker. I remember that my paper was on the woman who claimed to have survived the execution of the Russian czar and his family. As part of my research, I read Nicholas and Alexandrea. Another paper was on Auschwitz (I remember the opening line of that one -- "The nauseating stench of the Auschwitz crematory ovens permeated the air.") This project allowed for a lot of self-chosen, non-fiction, reading. It also taught us a lot of skills. This was many years pre-Internet. Luckily we had a good school and town library! Everyone in Junior English had to do the research and writing. Those chosen to speak then worked on how to effectively give speech during study hall.

[Amy]

Kirby wrote: "have you ever used The Book Thief for your class, Amy? if not, would you like to?"

Yes, as a matter of fact I do teach The Book Thief. One of my favorites!

[Amy]

Lara wrote: "We do plenty of composition, at least one essay per week, along with the reading. And we work grammar in two or three times a week. The novels aren't all we do at any one time. They read the nov..."

What percentage actually reads the novels if they are not given class time? Maybe your students are more studious than mine. I give them around 20 minutes of class time a day to read so I can be sure they actually read some of it. About 25% really read, about 50% read what they can get done in class and then sparknotes the rest of the chapter, and 25% fake read in class and either use sparknotes or asking someone what it was about. Obviously when it is exam time and essay time, it is clear what category they fall in, but the ones who do not read at all really are not that motivated to earn good grades. From the sounds of it, I focus on writing a lot more than you, but that is teacher preference to an extent.

[Diane]

David wrote: "It might be better for a student to read a novel with a more universal theme, rather than one that is so heavily tied to its historical era. There are so many novels, current and classic, that meet this criterion that I wouldn't know where to begin the list. "

Please do provide a list, I'd love to read them ( ^ ^)

[David]

The Great Gatsby is a book that should be a part of the high school curriculum, but, that being said, it is not a good book for average or below-average readers. It should definitely be required (or optional) for advanced or AP classes. As to relevance, it needs to be taught within the historical background. Having taught American and British literature for 44 years, I think that the most important thing is to show students that literature is evolutionary--that is, that it is a part of the history surrounding it, and it changes with that history. Once I had a fellow history teacher (not a good one) tell me that he left out the Renaissance because it was too confusing. That creates a gap. If we teach American literature as an emergent, growing, and powerful player in the world literature scene (as we should, by the way), one cannot leave out the 20s and 30s of American history, and Gatsby does it about as well as anything.
By the way, typically it is taught in the junior year, and I would not teach it any earlier. There is a tremendous difference between juniors and seniors as a whole (because they see themselves as mature) and freshmen and sophomores as a group.

[Monty J]

David wrote: "I think that the most important thing is to show students that literature is evolutionary--that is, that it is a part of the history surrounding it, and it changes with that history.
...typically it is taught in the junior year, and I would not teach it any earlier."

Agreed on all counts. Bravo!

[David]

Katie wrote: "When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you that by far The Great Gatsby was the class favorite. It's a ..."
Good for you that you had such a good experience, and I can understand the ranking you gave them. They are all significant to the eras of history that they are about, but Gatsby is clearly the easiest to teach. I know; I tried them all. It is hard to teach the colonial period at any time, but the Salem witch trials are about the most interesting thing to juniors. The 50s era for Catcher in the Rye is closer to us, but hard to teach to anyone that did not live in it. One book that I also had great success with, and particularly with advanced classes, was The Grapes of Wrath. But it takes careful chapter by chapter monitoring.

[Diane]

David wrote: "The Great Gatsby is a book that should be a part of the high school curriculum, but, that being said, it is not a good book for average or below-average readers. It should definitely be required (..."

I concede with pleasure. ( ^ ^)
That was one well rounded argument.

[William]

You have to be careful when choosing books for a class to read, particularly in AP English. If it is not in the cannon, other readers may not deem it worthy or may not even have heard of it. I taught a 17th century play called Life is a Dream by Calderon and a student wrote a brilliant essay on it, but came up short when assessed by an outside reader. I've also used Nobody's Fool, Cider House Rules, and The Fountainhead which I guess are not, I guess, of "high literary value." Some say to stick with the tried and true, and there are plenty of them: Frankenstein, Nineteen-Eighty Four, etc.

[Shelley]

Shouldn't be replaced, I think. There's a glow that surrounds everything we read when we're in high school. That nimbus stays around a book, and causes us to come back to it twenty or thirty years later, when we can get so much more out of it.

Shelley, http://dustbowlstory.wordpress.com

[Tilly]

I read Gatsby as part of my AS levels at school (so aged 16ish) and absolutely loved it - as did the majority of my classmates. As a English Lit. student at university now I don't think enough classics like Gatsby are taught at school. Gatsby was a good introduction to classics as, contrary to the opening comment dismissing it as 'not age-relevant' its themes were fairly easy to grasp and are directly relevant to our culture today. We shouldn't replace it because chances are it would be replaced by a dumbed down text to make it 'easier' to access - don't underestimate the level of ability of the students at this level.

[David]

Tilly wrote: "As a English Lit. student at university now I don't think enough cl..."

Exactly Tilly. And it is refreshing to hear you say that not enough classics are taught. I maintain that there is a wave of contemporary literature, so much so that many college English majors have had little or no exposure to the "old dead white guys" literature. And teachers in high school tend to teach what they know and what they like, and so the problem grows. Teachers sometimes have this attitude that if I don't know it or I have never heard it, it must not be important. It takes a good teacher to venture into territory they are unfamiliar with, and more teachers like that are needed.

[Monty J]

I suppose I should mention The Outsiders, but not as a replacement for Gatsby. The book is wildly popular, having sold over 13 million copies. And the 80s movie has achieved classic status (Tom Cruise, Dianne Lane, Rob Lowe, etc.)

The book was written by a 16-year-old student, and the crudeness of the writing (by S.E. Hinton) adds to the books' realism. The book moves along at a rapid pace and is novella length.

It does, however, speak to an era, the late 60s, and a region, Tulsa, Oklahoma.

[Deedee]

My freshmen love Of Mice and Men. It's a perfect introduction to "literature." Romeo and Juliet also catch their attention provided the teacher does more than just drone through the reading. I haven't taught sophomores for years but at our school they read Lord of the Flies only in the honors class. I chose to teach A Separate Peace instead of The Great Gatsby because I think it is more age appropriate. Also, I teach a complete unit on World War II including non-fiction and memoirs in addition to the novel.

[Lara]

Tilly wrote: "I read Gatsby as part of my AS levels at school (so aged 16ish) and absolutely loved it - as did the majority of my classmates. As a English Lit. student at university now I don't think enough cl..."

Well said Tilly!

[Will]

So, a bildungsroman or anything else of reasonable length that they might actually read that could be used teach something about a literary style, or history, or a "still relevant" human emotion? Well, sticking with Fitzgerald, This Side of Paradise is not half bad. All Quiet on the Western Front (not so US-centric), A Clockwork Orange or Cat's Cradle (both have super cool invented languages). For my flier, how about some Gogol--like The Nose (only a short story) or The Inspector General (if you want a play)--both short and HILARIOUS.

[Philip]

David wrote: "Would students today read Tom Wolfe's "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" and consider it relevant?"

If we're going down that road, why not "Sometimes a Great Notion" by Ken Kesey?

[Monty J]

Philip wrote: "David wrote: "Would students today read Tom Wolfe's "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" and consider it relevant?"

If we're going down that road, why not "Sometimes a Great Notion" by Ken Kesey?"

I took the The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test comment as a joke. I hope it was, because getting any book that glorifies drug use would never get past the school curriculum censors.

Sometimes a Great Notion is a great novel (much better for my tastes than One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest), but I think the subject matter of prostitution would doom it to censorship as well. The writing style would also be tricky for inexperienced readers.

But

[Mary]

Enders Game.

[Beth]

Feliks wrote: "Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students.

If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well writ..."

No need to condescend. I don't think the commenter meant that teens can't handle Gatsby, rather that there are other classic and/or challenging books that will encourage critical thinking and discussion, but also resonate with their life stage. Probably why Catcher in the Rye has been in high schools for decades, and Mockingbird in middle schools.

[Beth]

Luke wrote: "yeah, why would we ever want to expose high school students to what many call "THE great american novel"?

are you worried about whether high schoolers can comprehend and digest the great gatsby, o..."

It is important to learn how to write in high school. You might have paid better attention in the punctuation and grammar courses. To your point, yes, some high school students will refuse to read no matter what you hand them. I think the goal in lit classes at a high school level are to teach kids to think critically and to encourage a love of reading. The best way to accomplish that, in my opinion is to choose books that will both challenge and comfort students, like classics that have young adult themes. The Great Gatsby is a challenge with its metaphors and historical undertones, but it's not terribly relatable. The point is that there may be better choices that would entice even the laziest of students.

[Diane]

Beth wrote: "No need to condescend. I don't think the commenter meant that teens can't handle Gatsby, rather that there are other classic and/or challenging books that will encourage critical thinking and discussion, but also resonate with their life stage."

thank you, thank you!

[Diane]

Found a interesting post "4 Ways High School Makes You Hate Reading"

http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ways-hi...

Its craked.com, not a scholarly journal, but once you get past the pesty tone, the article actually touched upon a lot of this thread's discussion points.

[Ryan]

Bryan wrote: "Kids would stop saying Twilight is the best book ever written if it were on the school required reading list."

Exactly. This is why I had no interest in reading The Great Gatsby until I was 30. That said, I'm glad I was able to avoid it in high school-- as I would have only read it then and discarded it, rather than enjoy it as much as I did as an adult.

[William]

Ryan wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Kids would stop saying Twilight is the best book ever written if it were on the school required reading list."

Exactly. This is why I had no interest in reading The Great Gatsby unti..."

I think the teacher can make or break a book. It doesn't matter whether it is assigned or not.

[Ryan]

William wrote: "I think the teacher can make or break a book. It doesn't matter whether it is assigned or not."

That can certainly be part of it-- and it probably was the case once or twice for myself-- but another large part of the equation is the maturity of the students at the time the reading is assigned. In the high school English class I was in when this was assigned, some of the students were avid readers and loved the book, others struggled the book or were not interested in reading, and even more were struggling to survive their battle with their hormones. Like I alluded to before, I was insubordinate when it came to must assigned reading; however, I've read many of those books I shunned as a teenager, as an adult. Owing to this, I appreciate the books in a way that our teachers that assigned the reading can understand, and in a way that many teenagers are unable to.

[William]

Ryan,

Maybe I was lucky, but I had a lot of students who told me that they never understood Shakespeare until they had my class. I even had a basic (very low) group of students ask (beg) me to do Romeo and Juliet with them when they were seniors because other teachers had told them they were not smart enough to read Shakespeare. I promised I would explain all the dirty jokes to them. We ended up re-writing the last act in modern English and performing it in front of an audience. I retired last year because I too was "insubordinate." But we had a lot of fun while it lasted.

[Katie]

William wrote: "Ryan,

Maybe I was lucky, but I had a lot of students who told me that they never understood Shakespeare until they had my class. I even had a basic (very low) group of students ask (beg) me to do..."


William,

I think that is wonderful that you took the time to teach your students Shakespeare. I believe one of my most biggest pet peeves is when people say students are too 'dumb' to understand something. That's why you teach it to them so they can improve, not cater to their ignorance. Shakespeare is very difficult my high school freshman teacher made it so fun.

[Ramona]

What about Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain considered to be the "great American novel"?

[Emily]

"Age relevant" or not, I read Gatsby in my sophomore year and nearly everyone in my English class really loved it. It shouldn't be replaced.

Also, a lot of you guys mentioned replacing it with Of Mice and Men, The Catcher in the Rye, to Kill a Mockingbird, Lord of the Flies...we read all of those in high school as well in addition to Gatsby, along with a ton of other books and plays.

[David]

Ramona wrote: "What about Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain considered to be the "great American novel"?"

Ramona, Huck Finn is a great novel and, as I mentioned earlier, one that fits well into the idea of history shaping the arts. It also requires careful teaching because of the apparently flippant use of the word "nigger," even tough by the end of the story Huck has come to realize that Jim is a fellow human being for whom he goes to great lengths to help. My personal problem with Huck Finn, which happened every time I taught it (about six) is that the book loses the students' interest in the last third. It becomes rather silly and is just not interesting. The first two-thirds is wonderful.

[Ruth]

Rather than replace The Great Gatsby, I'd rather think of what kinds of books could be compel high-school age students toward an appreciation of fiction and poetry. The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka is short, strange, terrifying and beautiful. So too, New Islands, short stories of Maria Luisa Bombal. For longer, L.P. Hartley's The Go-Between is a terrific book -- has a young protagonist (younger than high school age), but told from the protagonist's mature point of view. The writing is lucid, heart-breaking.

[Suzanne]

I didn't know "The Great Gatsby" was on our syllabi. I think there's much that's timeless about it, for instance, class consciousness, growing up and ostensibly forsaking passion for pragmatism and becoming what is expected of us as adults, first love, love and relationships overall, young adults constructing their identities based on varying ideals. We see a woman caught in between social mores and a, sometimes, enduring adolescent wish. There's myriad material with which modern, young adults can identify. The specifics of the era that diverge from our own can be addressed with some basic historical information. Overall, the characters are grappling with situations and existential murk similar to ours. It's really not that old, as books go. And there's a universal appeal and usefulness to Gatsby.

[Robert]

Diane wrote: "Gatby [sic] is not age-relevant to today's high school students."

Note sure what you mean by age-relevant. The subject matter is age appropriate, IMO.

As others have pointed out, it's a teacher's job to help bridge the connections of the books themes and relate them to ideas that resonate with their class.

Personally, I enjoyed this book in high school and beyond. I got less enjoyment from Catcher in the Rye, Tess of the D'Urbervilles, and such. Some of this was less than stellar units/teaching, some just personal taste.

I think Gatsby has a place in the regular high school curriculum. If you're looking for other titles to possibly use with students, here are a few that connected with me at that age (14-17), some assigned, some personal choice:

The Lord of the Rings
Crime and Punishment
Illusions
Watership Down
anything by Ray Bradbury
Hemingway short stories
Steinbeck's shorter novels (not East of Eden or Grapes of Wrath
Edgar Allan Poe

Avoid:
William Faulkner
John Updike

[Ramona]

Would this reading assignment be for an American(US)literature course?

[Jason]

Sherman Alexie's "Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian" is a book that should be added to school's required reading. It touches upon similar themes as many of the classics that have been mentioned here and is what I'd like to consider a "new classic".

[Robert]

A little OT, but this topic also makes a good case for why I dislike "standard" curricula that micro-manage content.

Certain objectives (comprehension, written fluency, critical thinking) should be common; even certain broad ideas can be shared (cover, say, race, class struggles in America, the development of the American Dream, etc) --- but let the teacher decide how to best provide examples, forge connections through discussions and exercises, and achieve those objectives in a way that will work best for their students in their classroom.

Sure, there are certain "common" fiction and non-fiction works that everyone should have covered by the time they graduate. But given time restraints, there's only so much you can cover. One person's "essential" is another's not-so-much.

So the common list would have to be pretty small. As much as I like (sometimes love) Gatsby, I don't know if it would make my short list. I'd have to think about it some more.

[William]

Robert wrote: "A little OT, but this topic also makes a good case for why I dislike "standard" curricula that micro-manage content.

Certain objectives (comprehension, written fluency, critical thinking) should b..."

It is always a risk where I live to venture too far from the standard canon. But like you say, there should be some books that all students have in common. Like boot camp in the service, every soldier, sailor, and marine have at least one thing in common. Then there are those who might quibble about what is of literary merit and what is not.

[Licha]

I don't think that because a book is not age relevant it should not be endorsed as required reading. These books paint a picture of what that era was like. Books shuld also not be categorized as boy books or girl books. We should also not assume that something is off limits because of mature themes.

It seems to me that kids do not seem to be reading enough in school. I know when I was in school, we were always assigned to read at least about 10 books for the year. If we think 6 books is too much, that sends out a message that we think of reading as a chore.

I believe that if a teacher is enthusiastic about the books being assigned a kid will pick up on it. (Lara, you sound like a teacher I would have loved to have). Why not mix up classics with more contemporary books so that kids get a variety and have something to look forward to reading? One of my teachers would print out a list of about 50 classic and modern classic books and after reading an assigned book, we would then have to choose from this list and write an essay on the book we picked. I used to love being able to choose my own book. Having read "Of Mice and Men" in 9th grade and loving it, I picked up "Grapes of Wrath" and "East of Eden" from this list. I also picked up "Catcher in the Rye" from this list and it became one of my all-time favorites, a book that affected me profoundly. Getting kids involved in what they read helps.

I hated "The Great Gatsby" and many other assigned books ("The Scarlett Letter" comes to mind) but I'm also glad that I read them. They are all important books of a curriculum.

If I may add another suggestion, my 7th grade teacher would assign us books that were of impact at that time or that she had loved. I remember reading "Roots", "The Once and Future King", Fantastic Voyage", "Farenheit 451", "Flowers for Algernon", "Farewell to Manzanar" and I loved some, disliked some, but I was also so grateful to her for not shying away from assigning some of these books to the class and introducing me to such wonderful books such as "Roots" (the longest book I had read at that age, and almost seeming like it would have been impossible to finish it, so I completely don't buy that kids cannot read more than 6 books a year).

Kids need to be encouraged to read outside of the curriculum as well, just for the simple pleasure of reading. When you enjoy reading just for pleasure, you are more likely to pick up a wide range of books, even if it's just to see what all the hype was about or to see why a book is considered important enough to be called a classic.

[Licha]

Shelley wrote: "Shouldn't be replaced, I think. There's a glow that surrounds everything we read when we're in high school. That nimbus stays around a book, and causes us to come back to it twenty or thirty years ..."

Shelley, you are so right. So many of the books we read in high school stay with us into adulthood. A lot of the books we didn't like or even understood are books that as adults we want to re-read. You bring up a very goos point of why some books should remain required reading.

[William]

Licha wrote: "I don't think that because a book is not age relevant it should not be endorsed as required reading. These books paint a picture of what that era was like. Books shuld also not be categorized as ..."

We PLAY football, but reading is WORK?