The Great Gatsby
discussion
If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list...
The MAJORITY of High School students will hate any required reading. And before I get comments on the classics your english teacher read to you, I might as well mention that I was one of those nerds. The ones who take Shakespeare for fun, and read Ray Bradbury in their spare time. But it is the brutal truth that forcing a child to read a book often predjudices them against it, and two full-length analysis papers later, it's hard to make a devotee out of anyone. However, I think that Classes SHOULD teach higher-level reading. I may not have personally enjoyed the Great Gatsby, but I read and understood it. I may not have fallen in love with Hawthorne's writing, but I now have a greater comprehension of Puritanical values. The best books I ever read were inspired by literature classes I took. I am a avid Ray Bradbury Fan, but I would not be if I hadn't read a collection of his short stories in my required reading list. Writing of which, I think that Farenheit 451, although a wonderful classic, might not be the best book for High School classes. Not only has it become infamous in H.S. American Literature assignments, but it does not resonate with the average student, who doesn't give a hoot whether someone burnt all the books. I would suggest something like The Martian Chronicles or Dandelion Wine, which induces the student to read more of his works.That's what literature is all about really. In the end, classes should awaken the hunger for reading classics. I don't read Shakespeare or Poe because I feel the need to add another title to my status, but because I want to, because I connect with the story. That's what's missing from a lot of classes. It's not all about the motifs and Symbolism, or the 4-pg papers. Teachers often forget that.
Marjory : In the end, classes should awaken the hunger for reading classics....It's not all about the motifs and Symbolism, or the 4-pg papers."yes and yes. Higher-caliber reading doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable or connectable by the masses.
Robinson Crusoe, Beowulf, and Scarlet Letter should also be retired.
Marjory wrote: "The MAJORITY of High School students will hate any required reading. And before I get comments on the classics your english teacher read to you, I might as well mention that I was one of those nerd..."I agree with you that required reading is often hated. I am actually avoiding Frankenstein, which I have to read for one of my classes, but I really think it depends on the teacher and how they get their students involved.
oh, Katie...Please don't give up on Frankenstein. It really is one of the best books ever. Try this: Look for the humanity of the 'monster' and the lack of humanity in the people. And by all means, do not watch the De Niro movie as a short cut. Argh!
Back to the thread:
Wow. 3 'novels' is considered a lot for junior year English? I am starting to see the problem. I teach 6. What are these teachers doing with all that time? If I didn't fit so many in, I may delete Gatsby. I am definitely on a Grapes of Wrath kick these days.
Also, one thing that has been overlooked that is relevant to high schoolers, especially those who aspire to better their lives, would be to examine the maxims that Gatsby made for himself that allowed him to improve his station. Sure he was detroyed in the end, but had he avoided trying to attain Daisy, he still had that fortune and could have lived quite comfortably. Yes our students are disallusioned by their lack of college funding and their foreclosed homes, but do we just help them to accept that and say 'poor me...', or do we help them pull themselves up as best as they can? True, opportunities are not the same now as they were then, but perhaps a way 'in' would be to encourage students to create their own maxims and goals.
Diane wrote: "Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Gatsby story end on the note that certain things are unattainable? Along the lines of, doesn't matter what you do, you can get rich, but you'll never be "in", ..."Not wrong at all...but don't limit it to that. Only Daisy was truly inattainable. Don't forget how much Gatsby accomplished in his life. He died a very rich man. He was born a very poor boy. Sure, he didn't have any true friends, and he was killed over a misunderstanding, but we can take more away from his story than just that. Perhaps, as I mentioned above, seeking a balance between ambition and obsession. This is a timeless idea.
Also, thanks for the compliment a few posts back.
Monty: Normally I agree with you on most things, but you seem to think high school students can't handle most of the books we teach them. You have made me curious, what were you taught in high school? For example, we read Of Mice and Men in freshman classes and Catcher in Sophomore classes. They may not get all the depth, but they get a lot more than they would if we stuck to Harry Potter.
Monty J wrote: "Katie wrote: "When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you that by far The Great Gatsby was the class fav..."my god, do you underestimate the intelligence of high school kids....catcher in the rye is the one book, that i found more people read, than didnt. it is the one book that actually got through to most high school boys, and we read it as sophomores. i will say that many girls didnt like it, but then again, it wasnt really written with them in mind. though, i do know a lot of women who DID like it. personally, i clearly remember reading it at 14 years old, and thinking that i had never related to anything quite so well in my life. if anything, catcher in the rye should be read earlier, because i think that it serves as an amazing gateway to other books. it made me really open my eyes to the fact that i could actually enjoy reading.
Kev wrote: "It would have to be Justin Bieber: First Step 2 Forever: My Story. But only as an audiobook. Reading is hard."
This one got a laugh out of me. I appreciate the irony, as I know someone, around 50, who doesn't have time for reading but does not understand why his teen son thinks reading is too much like work.
Diane wrote: "wooo, I am itching to read "of Mice and Men" now. How come we didn't have this book as required reading? My school must have sucked major time. Found a interesting article too.
Who, what, why: Wh..."
Just a thought on your question: I know my high school dropped it due to racist issues and language.
Diane wrote: " Marjory : In the end, classes should awaken the hunger for reading classics....It's not all about the motifs and Symbolism, or the 4-pg papers."yes and yes. Higher-caliber reading doesn't mean i..."
I remember coming home from school with "The Scarlet Letter". My mother thought it had been assigned reading - she had hated it (in the 40s) but I loved it. I immediately checked out "The Little Minister" and enjoyed it too.
Katie wrote: "Marjory wrote: "The MAJORITY of High School students will hate any required reading. And before I get comments on the classics your english teacher read to you, I might as well mention that I was o..."I remember reading Frankenstein, and enjoying it. I was on the side of the "monster" and cried at the end. However - I LOATHED the movies.
Actually, thinking about this, and my earlier comment about my mother and her dislike of "The Scarlet Letter", I would suggest putting this book back on the list. It resonates - judgement that is misplaced, child out of wedlock, women is ostracized but man is exalted, woman with a child can't move out of her poor situation, and has an abysmal outlook. Other than the outdated language, it seems pretty relevant to me.
For what It's worth, I think high schools should try some P.G. Wodehouse. It's fun british literature. I read Right Ho Jeeves! and instantly devoured his other books. You can even download some of them for free off Amazon Kindle because of when they were published. I would also teach Les Miserables. It is a BEAUTIFUL novel, and if the school implemented some of the adaptions, I really think high school students would WANT to read it. And, I LOVED BEOWULF. I think that Edgar Allen Poe tops the list of classics High Schoolers would want to read. His macabre humor is just what a lot of students enjoy. I know that, for me, his poetry marked a highlight of my American Literature experience, right next to Emily Dickinson.
And, I really did like The Scarlet Letter, enough that I started reading The House of Seven Gables. I just didn't love it as much as Cry the Beloved Country, for instance. Also, that was one book class spoiled with over-analysis.
Doris wrote: "Katie wrote: "Marjory wrote: "The MAJORITY of High School students will hate any required reading. And before I get comments on the classics your english teacher read to you, I might as well mentio..."I feel sad because I bought the book even before I took this class, wanting to read it one day, but I can't bring myself to it right now. There's so many other books in my shelves that I want to read first.
Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Katie wrote: "When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you that by far The Great Gatsby w..."I don't know, Holden annoyed me through the whole book. I believe the only thing that I liked in the book was the ending but I don't think my dislike is because I'm a girl. My sister read it two or three times and loves it and hyped it up so much for me and I was so excited to read it but it just fell flat.
Katie wrote: "Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Katie wrote: "When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you that by far The G..."like i said, some girls like it, and some dont. but, i think you will find that most boys do like it.
in a way, holden is kinda supposed to be annoying. he is a young kid struggling with growing up. he is very unsure of himself, and his place in things. its not an easy thing for a boy growing up, to feel awkward and self conscious, while also feeling such intense pressure to be tough, and "act like a man". so, this is why many young men who read this book, feel a connection to it. where you just see things holden does or says to be merely "annoying", we can more easily see the reason he did or said those things.
Although Twilight seems to be highly voted for as the replacement book, I feel like that probably suck for the guys. I only know like 1 guy that loved it. I think the replacement book should be something guys and girls can read and it be intertaining, so like a romance or paranormal book, probably not the best. I was thinking more along the lines of a quick read like Of Mice and Men. Super short read and east to understand. For whatever reason that is not on my schools reading list, but I think it should be, and I would love to replace Gatsby with Of Mice and Men!
Of Mice and Men shouldn't replace Great Gatsby. Both should be read, neither one should be replaced. If people want to read "age relevant" books add them to the have schools do so just without replacing some of the best books we have.
I never read The Great Gatsby in High School. I did read it in first year university, and I am grateful for that. I like this book, and, more importantly, I think it is an important book, a masterpiece of a great author, which I would recommend to anyone. It came as close to changing my outlook on life as any single book ever has. However, depending on how it is taught, I do not think it should be part of a standard High School lit class. It has very mature themes about struggle, duplicity, and despair - not good themes for shaping young minds.
On the other hand, after some casual research, I see that they are teaching books such as Catch-22 and The Heart of Darkness in High School. All great books, but should 15-18 year olds be asked to think about the sombre themes in these books? Can't we find equally great books that explore themes such as identity, honesty, courage, and hope? No doubt the 20th C inspired a lot of dark thought and the 21st C isn't shaping up much better, but it can't all be doom and gloom all the time.
In answer to the question of the forum, for American students, I would replace Gatsby with The Bridge of San Luis Rey by Thorton Wilder.
Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students. If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well written, then mayb..."
The Book Thief
I actually loved this book when I read it in high school... Also read Frankenstein, and Animal Farm in high school. These are all great books. Sure they aren't the kind that get kids to love reading. But they are the books that teach symbolism, motifs, foreshadowing, and other literary techniques... which is the whole reason that they are assigned... I was in AP English in high school, so I had to find symbolism in twilight.. guess what? There isn't a whole lot... in fact, it was incredibly difficult to find anything deep about that book at all. The thing about The Great Gatsby is that the symbolism isn't right up in your face, you have to read into it.
I read The Catcher in the Rye and Lord of the Flies at 12 or 13 In what would be called "middle school" today. I read The Great Gatsby and Of Mice and Men and The Crucible and many other books, including Shakespeare. By the way, The Crucible is a play not a novel. We also read Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as Young Man. With the exception of Portrait of the Artist all are very easy texts. We were also expect to read 19th century texts like Jane Eyre and Sense and Sensibility .You speak as though kids are only assigned a single text. People read lots of books in school. That's what school's for. :-)
The major themes of The Great Gatsby are romantic love and what it means as well as what our responsibilities are to others, in other words, morality. That should not be beyond high school students.
Along with King Lear, The Great Gatsby was my favorite piece of literature in high school. They remain two of my favorites today.
No one was concerned about whether any of it was relevant. The skill of the reader is to find relevance in major works of literature and of the teacher to help them. You don't bring literature down to students. You help students rise to the literature.
That said, there are texts that are too difficult for most high school students. Moby Dick was routinely assigned and it is beyond most high school students -- actually, most adults too. :-)But it's a great novel.
Luke wrote: "Katie wrote: "Luke wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Katie wrote: "When I was a junior in high school we read three novels: The Crucible,The Great Gatsby,and then The Catcher in the Rye. I could tell you tha..."I can see what you're saying about Holden growing up and trying to find himself but overall it was just boring to me.
In high school I really was never assigned reading material until my senior year. It's sad but schools are putting less and less emphasis on reading. They even took away the required reading we were supposed to do on our alone time :( in my senior year, I read the crucible, Macbeth, the great gatsby, Frankenstein, and brave new world. We had to analyze them all and spend a lot of time on each one... None of these books are something any student would be likely to pick up and read for fun, but they are great and none of them are too difficult. So I don't agree that we should remove it from the curriculum. Not everybody is going to like the book that a teacher puts in front of them, but many people do.
Monty J wrote: "Diane wrote: "Gatby is not age-relevant to today's high school students. If we could the replace Gatsby on the school required reading list, with something that's both age relevant, and well writ..."
we all ready have to read most those books in school plus the great gatsby and more
Diane wrote: "wooo, I am itching to read "of Mice and Men" now. How come we didn't have this book as required reading? My school must have sucked major we are reading that book curently form my english humanities class
Oh mice and men was required reading when I was in 10th grade... Well some people got of mice and men, I got Night.
Lara wrote: "oh, Katie...Please don't give up on Frankenstein. It really is one of the best books ever. Try this: Look for the humanity of the 'monster' and the lack of humanity in the people. And by all ..."
It's not that I don't ever want to read Frankenstein, it's just that I have a couple of other books I want to read now and unfortunately I can't focus on it. You should keep teaching The Grapes of Wrath, I feel that so many people don't give it a chance and it's one of my favorites.
I understand students will hate homework no matter what. But there were still books that I wished that "was" in the required reading list, simply because I'll get to read it that much sooner ( ^ ^).
Then, there are others, that I thought, wow, if only we had discuss this book in class, maybe attitudes would change.
History repeat itself, human condition remains the same, and themes are repeated in literature all the time. Why not try Oryx and Crake in place of Brave New World.
Isn't Gatsby's story also, in a way, an echo of Wuthering Heights?
There must be a Gatsby for 2000's. If not, someone should write it.
If we're talking older literature, I'd say some Hemingway might be in order. Many of the themes in his books can be applied today. I really enjoyed A Farewell to Arms and could have easily read it in school. It also fits in with 11th grade English, which in my state at least, is focused on great American Lit.If we're going modern, I'd actually like to see something like Nickel and Dimed. Sure, it's nonfiction, but it's well-written and so good at describing poverty and the power struggle in America.
The Perks of Being a Wallflower, perhaps? At least it's about teenagers and issues they face today. I think of it more as The Catcher and the Rye of today though.
I think The Great Gatsby is relevant due to the themes of trying to fit in with all the lavishness and opulence only to see the dirty side of glamor, but I hated it in school. It was so bad that my friends and I made a video parody of it as a history project. As a high school teacher now, I'd love to see just about anything take its place.
Diane wrote: "I understand students will hate homework no matter what. But there were still books that I wished that "was" in the required reading list, simply because I'll get to read it that much sooner ( ^..."
well for that matter, why dont we drop romeo and juliet? there are scores of updated versions of that.
As far as I know my school didn't even have a reading list. It wouldn't have mattered though - I did and do read everything. For many people I knew then, though, getting them to read 2 pages in a history book was a major challenge.
OK, the book is not THAT bad, but whatever books schools choose, high school students won't read them because they are being TOLD to do so. That's how I felt anyway.
Isn't the point of required reading to get students to read? A lot of kids don't read books aside from what they're assigned, so The Classics might feel too advanced.I mean, not all young adult novels are Twilight. In answer to the discussion topic, I would say my top picks are The Book Thief or The Fault in Our Stars. Both YA books with symbolism, metaphors, and all that good stuff, so classes would be able to discuss them in depth. My (middle) school does pretty cool books, some classes read The Hunger Games, and others did Lockdown (by Alexander Gordon Smith) which I convinced the librarian to get.:) I just think that reading should be fun, especially when you're young.
Luke wrote:well for that matter, why dont we drop romeo and juliet? there are scores of updated versions of that. But, Romeo and Juliet is actually a lot of fun, even without digging deep. Its actually easily enjoy in so many levels.
In my high school, when you see a bunch of teenage boys snickering and flipping thumbs to each other hallway, you know its R & J time for the Freshman.
On the surface, the girls will be swooning over the tragic "luv", the boys were mostly," hey boobs, Shakespeare is talking about boobs, and swords". The teachers will of course be all, hey there is "symbols", "juxtaposition", "conflict", "imagery".
Digging deeper, for the affluent kids, maybe it'll be the controlling parents, the social pressure that they identify with. For the inner city kids, maybe it'll be the gang wars, the cousins and friends that they lost in a stabbing, or the oppressiveness of reality they face each day.
Can you recommend a updated version that is as easily enjoyed AND connected with by such diverse group?
As Majory point out Fahrenheit 451, together with Wuthering Heights, and Pride and Prejudice, are some of my all time favorites, but their beauty are not as easily accessible by the majority. For that reason alone,they would not be on my "required" reading list.
We cannot dedicate what people should love or despise, but reading "literature" as an experience could indeed be made more accessible.
Lindsay wrote: If we're going modern, I'd actually like to see something like Nickel and Dimed. Sure, it's nonfiction, but it's well-written and so good at describing poverty and the power struggle in America. "I second that.
Diane wrote: "Luke wrote:well for that matter, why dont we drop romeo and juliet? there are scores of updated versions of that. But, Romeo and Juliet is actually a lot of fun, even without digging deep. Its ac..."
but, but, but.....so, the great gatsby gets axed because it isnt relevant enough in todays world, but a play written hundreds of years earlier, that is written practically in a totally different language is ok, because YOU liked it. oh, but the themes are so much more relatable? a play depicting the violent destruction of two families, due to a high school crush is positive reading? a book that glorifies teenage suicide. YES, glorifies. romeo and juliet's lasting impression is that romeo and juliet were victims of the folly and oppression of their families, and their only choice, was betrayal and ultimately suicide. and IN their deaths, they will finally be together forever. i can TOTALLY see how this is healthy for kids to read.
as someone pointed out earlier, part of the point of these assigned reading is also to teach the kids HOW TO WRITE. there arent many books that are written so simply, and yet lyrically as the great gatsby. it employs quite a number of literary tools that are quite simple for the teachers to explain, AND it is a rather short book. not too much time REALLY has to be dedicated to it.
like i have said, and others have said, on this thread, there are some students that will automatically hate ANY book they are assigned. no matter what it is, they will not give themselves a chance to like it. its just the way it is. but out of the kids that ARE willing to read, learn, and enjoy, there will be some who hate it, some love it, and some who are somewhere in between. again, thats just the way it is. however, because YOU seem to be one of those people who didnt enjoy the great gatsby, you think it should be replaced. and, even though everything you say against it can be used against other books you dont want replaced, gatsby is STILL the only one on your chopping block.
you say you read a thread on here, where people say they hated it. well, i suggest you take a look at some of the other threads, and see how many people actually LOVED it....or maybe those people just dont count.
Considering that GG is on the contemporary classics list largely due to its historical position in American capitalistic history, ie. the `20`s and their precursor to the GREAT DEPRESSION, I would substitute BABBIT if any.
I have been trying to contain myself here, but I must speak.Each work of literature is a reflection of the time period in which it was written. I have posted on my classroom wall:
History is what has happened in the past that makes us who we are now. Literature is our collective response to that history.
When I teach any of the American classics, I first discuss the historical and cultural context in which it was written. For example, Gatsby is a perfect example of American Modernism. My students can follow shifts in cultural norms from Puritanism through post-modernism and discuss the influences of each on art, literature and music. These are regular, not advanced, high school students. What is relevant is not the plot or the symbolism or the fancy dresses. What is relevant is that it is a part of our collective history and influences everything that comes after, just as Jazz influences the music they listen to now.
These are students who understand cultural relevance beyond their own trendy reads. Again, rather than replace any of these classics, we should be asking ourselves why they are considered classics in the in the first place.
Lara wrote: "I have been trying to contain myself here, but I must speak.Each work of literature is a reflection of the time period in which it was written. I have posted on my classroom wall:
History is wh..."
well said
Fascinating discussion. I cannot remember all the assigned reading for high school -- some I liked, some I did not -- but what I do remember is the collective reading and discussing, with the discussion led by the teacher. I do not remember liking Gatsby but I do remember enjoying the discussion. And if I had not been assigned Shakespeare and not participated in the discussion, I might never have developed a liking for Shakespearan theatre. And I liked Beowolf, which I do remember reading as a high school freshman. What concerns me about eliminating the typically assigned books is the loss of common/collective knowledge of certain books (poetry, music, etc) that are often referenced in other books, essays, articles, and even news stories without explanation because it is expected that most people read them in school and so will understand why they are referenced. When as a society we loose our collective knowledge, communication becomes more difficult. That said, if I were forced to pick a replacement for Gatsby, it would be The Bean Trees by Barbara Kingsolver.
First, Diane, I've had to read Of Mice and Men at least ten times for classes. While I think I've exhausted it, I have never regretted reading it. To the rest of the discussion, no one (I think) has mentioned The Natural, a fantastic book that might engage a few of the boys.
When I was a sophmore in high school we readBlack Boy byRichard Wright and we read The Merchant of Venice. Alot of the other books in this thread I read on my own but I've always been an avid reader. The book I would reccomend would be To Kill a Mockingbird because I think the themes it touches on are still relevant today.
Luke wrote: " because YOU seem to be one of those people who didnt enjoy the great gatsby, you think it should be replaced. and, even though everything you say against it can be used against other books you dont want replaced, gatsby is STILL the only one on your chopping block."Dear, I would offer up Wuthering heights, Pride and Prejudice AND Fahrenheit 451 for the SAME chopping block you mentioned, its not about PERSONAL likes or dislikes. Its about broadening accessibility, reaching out to largest potential audience, delivering the most crucial message.
If the required reading list is 50 books, hell, I said put all the books on there, but unfortunately, "required" reading per semester is perhaps 5-6 books. You only get few chance to reach out to young readers.
Ps. on the Romeo and Juliet suicide thing, one of the points of the last scene, where Romeo kills himself and Juliet comes alive, that delivers the message that "don't kill yourself dumb ass, when you die, you loose all chances of happiness".
Lara wrote: "What is relevant is that it is a part of our collective history and influences everything that comes after, just as Jazz influences the music they listen to now."That is beautiful. You are a passionate teacher. They are lucky to have you.
William wrote: "First, Diane, I've had to read Of Mice and Men at least ten times for classes. While I think I've exhausted it, I have never regretted reading it. To the rest of the discussion, no one (I think) ..."I just finished OMM, its very powerful, I am glad to have received that recommendation here. Actually, I am going to read all the recommended books on this thread, except for the Justin Bieber thing, to be considered powerful enough to replace Gatsby, they must be amazing.
Diane wrote: "William wrote: "First, Diane, I've had to read Of Mice and Men at least ten times for classes. While I think I've exhausted it, I have never regretted reading it. To the rest of the discussion, n..."OMM rocks!
Linda wrote: "When as a society we loose our collective knowledge, communication becomes more difficult. ."Very true.
Every book that "defines a generation" is always considered irrelevant by the next generation, because every generation is self-absorbed and feels the need to "define" itself. Would students today read Tom Wolfe's "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" and consider it relevant? It might be better for a student to read a novel with a more universal theme, rather than one that is so heavily tied to its historical era. There are so many novels, current and classic, that meet this criterion that I wouldn't know where to begin the list.
David wrote: "Every book that "defines a generation" is always considered irrelevant by the next generation, because every generation is self-absorbed and feels the need to "define" itself. Would students today ..."Since you mention The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest still gets a positive response from students who read it, only in a heavily Christian community it sure can get some dander up.
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Yes, I should have mentioned this. It's a deceptively simple novel written in a language that's clear and simple with poetic description and bulging with realism. No abstractions, similar to The Old Man and the Sea. But it's also multi-level; so there's plenty of meat for the advanced reader.
Curley's wife is a controversial character, described as "a tart," "jailbait" and "poison" by the men for her overt flirting and hanging around the bunkhouse and barn where she has no business.
She's the only female character, so she stands out like a red flag for the girls in class to focus on and analyze.
She's a negative role model, but in academia her negative behavior is explained away as a "misunderstanding." (Which I think is politically correct feminist bull. I've just posted a topic on the subject under OMM titled "Jailbait: Curley's Real Wife.)