Embassytown Discussion: SECTION 1: Proem: The Immerser (0.1-0.3)

[Nataliya]

Welcome to the group read of “Embassytown” by China Miéville! I hope we will have a good time throughout this read and the discussion.

Rules and regulations (yes, of course there are rules! Rules are there to regulate the fun!):

- Spoilers: I trust that those of us that have read the entire book respect those who have not. ‘Nuff said.

- Timeline of the read: Read at your own pace and join the discussion whenever you feel like. I will post the links to the discussions of the later parts of this book through this entire week.

- China Miéville is the best, and I hope you will all agree.

PROEM: THE IMMERSER (0.1 - 0.3) (Kindle 0-12%; page 40 out of 345)

Welcome to the bizarre setting of Embassytown, a human (humanoid) habitat on the alien planet Arikei, populated by the very strange “Hosts”. We see it through the eyes of the titular ‘immerser’, Avice Benner Cho, a self-proclaimed ‘floaker’. We get the glimpses of the bizarre city filled with ‘biorigging’ - the living pieces of technology, the organic technology, so to speak. We glimpse the Hosts - the bizarre creatures communicating in the Language, so unlike the communication system that we - or Avice - are comfortable with.

I noticed my own trid in the background. Embassytowner guest! On life among the Ariekei. “That’s wrong,” I told the conference organisers, “they’re Hosts.” But they told me: “Only to you.”

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Some things and ramblings that I found interesting and would like to hear your guys’ input on (and please feel free to use these just as a springboard to all the amazing enlightening discussions we are bound to have:

- Do you normally read sci-fi? Is this book in the genre that is dear to your heart, or are you a newcomer to it, reading it just because it’s one of the genre Miéville explores in his versatility?

- Do you have any background in linguistics/languages? As some of you know and others are bound to find out, the Language of the Hosts plays a pivotal role in the development of the plot.

- We meet Bren (not Mr. Bren, just Bren), the person who can understand the Hosts but cannot communicate with them as he is ‘diminished ‘ - we see him through confused eyes of young Avice. Through Bren, we get to see the glimpse of culture of Embassytown, revolving around the idea of ‘Ambassadors’ and leading to deeply ingrained ideas and prejudices:

“Why do the people not like Mr. Bren living there?”
“Not Mr. Bren, darling, just Bren. They, some of them, don’t think it’s right for him to live like that, in town.”
“What do you think?”
He paused. “I think they’re right. I think it’s … unseemly. There are places for the cleaved.” I’d heard that word before, from Dad Berdan. “Retreats just for them, so … It’s ugly to see, Avvy. He’s a funny one. Grumpy old sod. Poor man. But it isn’t good to see. That kind of wound.”

- We get a recollection from Avice on becoming a simile - what appears to be a significant honor. What do you think about what happened to Avice?

‘Say it like a Host.’

- Finally, we meet Scile, Avice’s husband, the one obsessed with languages. I find it interesting that, unlike the traditional sci-fi/fantasy males that sweep ladies off their feet twenty times before breakfast, Scile cannot satisfy Avice sexually as they are quite incompatible. Thoughts?

- Avice’s confession that, like many immersers, she ‘recall[s] episodes very well, but episodes, not a timeline.’ I find that I often remember my childhood in a similar way - a series of episodes and not a smooth narratives. What are your experiences?

- Immer. A fascinating concept the way Miéville describes it. ‘When immernauts first breached the meniscus of everyday space [...]’. Filled with ‘lighthouses’ that seem to sprout a new variant of religion (Christ Pharotekton).

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Anyway, eagerly awaiting our lovely discussion. Any input will be very much appreciated.

[Traveller]

I have a relatively strong background in sci-fi, but it's not my only genre. I like anything that brings something fresh and new and/or imaginative to the table, and Mieville certainly has delivered for me so far.

Just wanted to say that this is looking great, Nataliya! Can't wait for things to get really rolling. The linguistics aspect sounds intriguing!

[Robert]

SF and fantasy are my two relative favorites. But great writing in any genre is usually the hook for me. I recently finished Lolita with its horrible subject material but extraordinary prose and that made it a glorious read for me.

I somehow feel compelled to write reviews and participate in groups like this but would much rather just spend my limited time reading. The compulsion to write, participate or even read was not so great in our last selection (tC&tC). I'm hoping this one will inspire more passion for all.

Looks like today's the day to start and I'm ready. Thanks for the great intro. Stuff like your post is helpful when stepping into the weirdness that is CM.

[Nataliya]

@ Traveller and Robert: I have a so-so background in sci-fi; I've read enough of it (especially its classics) to roll my eyes when I hear people automatically dismiss good books just because they belong to this genre ('What are you reading?' ' Oh, Embassytown. It's great!' 'Yeah? What's it about?' ' Oh, you know, it's Mieville's take on sci-fi...' **blank stare** 'No, I don't read those.')

What I like in this one is that Mieville stays away from so many genre tropes - relatable aliens, strong macho male protagonist (or a female heroine falling for a strong macho man). He replaces endless space talk with the concept of immer which he describes in such a fascinating way that I'd read an entire book just about the 'immernauts'.

One thing he does use is the convention I've seen many times - referring to Earth as 'Terre'. I wonder why it seems a must in sci-fi.

I also find intersting, having lived in the US for quite a few years, how he uses metric system for everything - kilohours, for instance. Metric system is my preferred way of looking at things ('How big was that baby?' ' Eight pounds three ounces.' 'Okay, but what's that in kilograms?' **blank stare**), but even then I find it so strange to imagine the world where hours are subjective and years have little meaning (and yet on Arieke people still cling to the yearly system, just having three of each month in their year).

Is it the first time read for both of you?

[Robert]

First time for me

[Cecily]

First for me as well. It's the third Mieville I've read, and each is better than the last.

[pearl]

Yes, yes, Mieville is the best :)

I love SF, but I usually prefer the kind that meets half-way with fantasy. Dune, The Book of the New Sun, and the works of Octavia Butler are my favorites. Re: tropes-- As I understand it, from a Globe interview I read a while ago, Embassytown is Mieville's loving but inverted homage to Ursula K. Le Guin, especially her Hainish Cycle (I've only begun reading The Left Hand of Darkness, however, so I can't confirm!).

Not a linguistics expert by any means, but I did take some courses on the philosophy of language in school, which naturally piqued my interest in Embassytown. I'm fascinated by all the realms of critical theory that Mieville has managed to tie together in this one.

And this will be my second read of Embassytown!

[Andrea]

Lovely to be here with everyone. I'm on my second read, I promise I won't drop any spoilers.
A few comments:
1. the "immer" or other ways of describing space-travel been in many many other sci-fi works where authors try to describe how travel in non-Newtonian space might be experienced. It seems to be a convention now that those who manage travel in such a fashion (ie with their brains in some way) are "changed", "different" and cannot communicate with lesser folks. Dune, CJ Cherryh spring to mind immediately.
2. The childhood memory thing - yes, I also remember my childhood as isolated flashes of events - I suspect that is the norm which begs the question of what and how CM remembers his childhood.
3. The kilo-thing is totally normal to me, I find non-metric measurments weird. I have found that also in sci-fi, everyone uses metric measurements - it seems to be an unspoken rule.

[[deleted user]]

Hi Nataliya,

In fiction I'm a heavy duty, long term sci-fi & fantasy reader, but not exclusively. Also wide range of general literature from Shakespeare onwards. No so much a conscious choice - just where I gravitate to. I love good writing, storytelling, world building, mythologies, exploration of ideas, and work which defies boundaries/genre/classification.

I have an extensive interest (and reading) in psychology, history & general science. No meaningful exposure to linguistics, but touched on some overlapping concepts studying cognitive psychology and (a little) philosophy.

Have read Embassy and Perdido & intend to read the everything else Mieville has written, given time. I love his use of language and firmly belief he is one of our finest (current) writers in any genre.

@pearl – thanks for interesting morsel re homage to TLHoD: adds a whole new dimension to interpreting Embassytown.

[Andrea]

I need to re-read The Left Hand of Darkness.
Le Guin vs CM? Hmmm...its a hard choice to say who is the better author, CM more prolific and in your face terribly clever, LG more subtle yet just as deep thinking and brilliant in her time.

[Cecily]

My reaction to the first section was... reeling, but in a good way. It was so vague and yet specific, nearly familiar, yet also strangely different, and in such an enticing way. Hints at all sorts of weirdness that I couldn't quite put my finger on, but was eager to learn more about. Even the names and numbers of the sections were disorienting.

Having just read The City & The City, I was also struck by some parallels: there is lots about borders, separation, boundaries, outsiders, the strange duality of the city ("the Host city, where the streets changed their looks... not quite a hard border but was still remarkably abrupt, a gaseous transition.") and Bren is "cleaved", when cleavage is a significant aspect of TC&TC.

[Nataliya]

Hello, Cecily, Andrea, pearl, and G! This will be a great read, I already sense it.

pearl wrote: "As I understand it, from a Globe interview I read a while ago, Embassytown is Mieville's loving but inverted homage to Ursula K. Le Guin, especially her Hainish Cycle (I've only begun reading The Left Hand of Darkness, however, so I can't confirm!)."

I loved the few works by Le Guin that I read ('The Left Hand of Darkness', 'The Lathe of Heaven', 'A Wizard of Earthsea', and 'The Dispossessed'). I really admire her subtle and very intelligent writing style. I have never thought about 'Embassytown' as a homage to Le Guin's works - but it does make sense!

Andrea wrote: "I need to re-read The Left Hand of Darkness.
Le Guin vs CM? Hmmm...its a hard choice to say who is the better author, CM more prolific and in your face terribly clever, LG more subtle yet just as ..."

Le Guin is definitely much less attention-grabbing in her writing, unlike Miéville who does get all out there with his overly sophisticated and yet loud and flashy vocabulary and baroquely constructed sentences - the writing style that shines through any genre that he chooses to write in. It's hard to compare them - they are so different, and excellent in their own ways.

[Nataliya]

Andrea wrote: "2. The childhood memory thing - yes, I also remember my childhood as isolated flashes of events - I suspect that is the norm which begs the question of what and how CM remembers his childhood."

I would not be surprised to learn that CM has an excellent memory of his childhood as this perfect time stream full of amazingly sharp details. That's definitely not how I remember mine, and you are in the same boat, too! I wonder now which is more common - and I suspect that this 'unusual' (per Avice) episodic disjointed memory is much more common.

[Nataliya]

The end of this section made me reflect on the future in which CM sees little change/reprieve from bureaucracy and suspicion and control that limits people's mobility and ability to leave one place and travel to another.

Avice and her compatriots, being technically under the jurisdiction of Bremen, have such difficulty obtaining the right to leave their little 'ghetto' and visiting the wider world - makes me (of course!) think about governmental control akin to the one that resulted in the Iron Curtain, making it very hard for the layperson to leave their isolated world.

It made me wonder whether such restrictions were unique to a particular country of Bremen and its citizens or whether it's coming from Embassytown that somehow was the black mark on your record. Thoughts?

[Annie]

I developed so many inaccurate ideas and pictures in my head about the world of Embassytown that I had to slow down and take a second read. CM does a good job of tripping over eager readers up with his bit by bit revelation of characters and worlds.

I love the patterns languages make and the systems they are built on. I studies languages quite a bit as an undergraduate. I believe to truly understand someone you need to speak their language. Language is a distilled essence of land, physical characteristics, history, and culture. Language holds the spirit of a people. This book is a special treat for me.

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

This is my second read (and my third second-read for this group, if that makes any sense).

I'm interested that you fixed on Avice's inability to remember her life as a stream: your interpretation is quite unlike mine. I think we all do remember life as episodes, but when we think about it we can connect the dots. I suspect that travelling in the immer actually prevents that - she literally can't connect episode 1 to episode 2. I agree with Andrea that it's similar to what happens to pilots in both Cherryh' and Herbert's universes (and also Janet Morris' Dream Dancer in which travelling through the Swiss-cheese-like hyperspace leaves the pilots with Swiss-cheese-like brains).

"Kilohours" - a really stupid and non-scientific measurement. It's metric, but not SI. The unit of time in SI is the second. It makes perfect sense that in a galactic society, where you need to consider both objective and subjective time, and planetary and inter-planetary times, you would use natural seasons and years on-planet, but not in a wider environment, but the proper measurement should be in seconds: megasecs, not kilohours (I think Iain M. Banks does this). Besides, which, "hours", because of the lack of an initial consonant, is not as mellifluous. This is one of the very few times I think CM has screwed up in his use of words.

"Cleavage" - CM really does seem to have a bit of an obsession with this (it comes up in Perdido Street Station too). It's going to make for some interesting discussion when he writes his "feminist" book (well, he wants to write in every genre, he has to do it...).

But this is all just introduction - it's Language that absolutely fascinates me about this book!

[Nataliya]

Annie wrote: "I developed so many inaccurate ideas and pictures in my head about the world of Embassytown that I had to slow down and take a second read. CM does a good job of tripping over eager readers up wit..."

I think I'm getting a much better mental picture on my second read-through. With all the organic biotechnology it's becoming tempting for me to envision this world as a series of interconnected organ systems, which is quite fascinating. Would not want to end up there myself, however - I prefer my walls and ceilings to not have active metabolism.

I agree with you that speaking someone's language helps you better understand them. The way concepts are expressed in a language really shapes your attitude towards them - and that can be hard to relate to without the knowledge of a particular language.

[Nataliya]

Derek wrote: "This is my second read (and my third second-read for this group, if that makes any sense).

I'm interested that you fixed on Avice's inability to remember her life as a stream: your interpretation ..."

Hmmm, maybe you are actually interpreting that as CM meant it to be. My interpretation may be a bit off.

As for megaseconds - I'm relieved CM did not actually use that! As it, it was cumbersome enough to pull out my calculator app and convert hours to earth-years to get a better sense of the timeline (and I fell victim to Embassytown year being about three Earth years when I read in horror Avice casually mentioned that she was married at eleven!)

As for cleavage - both you and Cecily have picked up on that. That's why I'm so happy to be reading this along with all of you - there are so many little gems and parallels that otherwise would have gone unnoticed.

[pearl]

Re: Immer, something I noticed was CM's use of the German language here: "Immer" (always), "manchmal" (sometimes; the tangible non-Immer space where people live), and of course "Bremen" all have German origins. I'm even starting to suspect that "floaker" might come from "Flocke", gah!

Do any of you have ideas about what CM is trying to suggest here, or his reasons for doing so? I'm drawing a blank, and maybe it was just poetic choice, but knowing CM it probably has some significance, even if just a little...

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

pearl wrote: "Re: Immer, something I noticed was CM's use of the German language here: "Immer" (always), "manchmal" (sometimes; the tangible non-Immer space where people live), and of course "Bremen" all have German..."

Interesting. I remember another GR discussion about the use of "immer" (noting its meaning in German), and I don't think anybody picked up on the idea of a German cultural basis. It's not so terribly unusual for German roots in scientific - particularly astronomical - terms, so "immer" itself doesn't seem unusual, but I'd completely missed "manchmal" which does cast a different light on it. I'll see if I can dig up that other discussion.

[Annie]

For an exquisite rendering of "immer" by Janet Baker in the fourth song of the "Ruckert Lieder" by Gustav Mahler listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnAcHq...

I think the german words bring across Mieville's meaning much more effectively than "space", "forever" or "endless" could.

CM is having us learn languages while we read about the Hosts, Ambassadors and their peculiar language.

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Nataliya wrote: "Hmmm, maybe you are actually interpreting that as CM meant it to be. My interpretation may be a bit off."

No, actually, not only am I not interpreting it as he meant it, he told us that my interpretation was wrong. That'll teach me for commenting from memory before I'd caught up to the actual passage:

"People say it as a way to stress the strangeness of the immer; the implication being that there’s something in that foundational altreality that plays buggery with human minds. (Which it can do, certainly, but not like that.) It’s not true, but it is the case that I, and most of the immersers I’ve known, have casual, or vague, or discombobulated memories of when we were small. I don’t think it’s a mystery: I think it’s a corollary of our mindsets, the way we think,..."

So "people" think that it works the way I said, but "people" (like me) are wrong :)

[Nataliya]

Re: German words that pearl noted - I just assumed that "immer" was derived from "immersion", as in immersing into this altspace. But I really don't see any other way to interpret 'manchmal' (and it's such a cool word, very nicely rolls off the tongue). I was wondering about Bremen, I remember - the Bremen Musicians immediately springs to mind for me.

Flocke ('flake', right?) --> floaker definitely sounds possible.

I love how Annie put it: "CM is having us learn languages while we read about the Hosts, Ambassadors and their peculiar language."

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Nataliya wrote: "Re: German words that pearl noted - I just assumed that "immer" was derived from "immersion", as in immersing into this altspace. But I really don't see any other way to interpret 'manchmal' (and ..."

Ah, but that's the beauty of CM's use of words. Of course "immer" is related to immersion - after all, the immer pilots are "immersers". But he also explicitly calls it the "always". He likes nothing better than a multi-lingual pun.

I think though, that Bremen is just a red herring - or at least a kipper (which at least sounds like a good German word). This corner of the immer might be fundamentally German, but I've already encountered people from elsewhere of clearly Indian ancestry, and no doubt there are all sorts of enclaves, and at least as many people of no distinguishable ancestry. So the use of "immer" while being of German origin seems universal in use, while "floaker" and "manchmal" _could_ be local usages, but probably aren't. I originally took "floaker" to be a portmanteau of "floater" and "faker", but even if I'm right that certainly doesn't preclude an alternate derivation from "flocke" - as I said, CM loves a multi-lingual pun.

Oh, btw, Embassytown's use of "immer" and "manchmal" are nouns, while in German, neither one is. If we were really to take this as some indication of a German cultural domination in their society, then both words should be capitalized.

[Nataliya]

@ Derek: I don't think that CM suggests any German cultural domination (after all, the mainstream language is Anglo-Ubiq here) - I think, like you said, it's CM having fun with the 'multi-lingual puns' in a book about language, which is quite fitting.

[pearl]

Derek wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "Re: German words that pearl noted - I just assumed that "immer" was derived from "immersion", as in immersing into this altspace. But I really don't see any other way to interpret..."

Ah well, you are probably right about Bremen being a red herring/kipper, after all. I was eager to read into it some implications of intergalactic German influence, but since not too much is made of it (at least for now), I can accept it as CM just being his usual (clever) self!

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?

[Robert]

Nataliya wrote: "I read in horror Avice casually mentioned that she was married at eleven!"

I try as best I can to suspend my anthropomorphism when reading SF/Fantasy. When we compare and contrast, for example, what a foal is physically capable of soon after birth with that of a human, we probably should not judge the capacity of another species or imaginary character. Avice might just as well have been 1100 years old.

[Nataliya]

Robert wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "I read in horror Avice casually mentioned that she was married at eleven!"

I try as best I can to suspend my anthropomorphism when reading SF/Fantasy. When we compare and contrast..."

I try to do that as well, but here Avice is clearly human so eleven would be quite, well, disturbing. It was enough for me to do a double take until a few paragraphs later when it all became clear. But in Embassytown years that makes her about 30-33 years old.

Derek wrote: "And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?"

That's how I interpreted it.

[Ian]

I hope you don't mind if I give my responses to Nataliya's preliminary questions, before reading the thread.

N: Do you normally read sci-fi?

IG: I read a lot during my youth. I loved it then, but have no particular reason for not reading more. It's just such a vast area and it's hard to know where to start. Traveller helped me get into Jeff VanderMeer.

N: Are you ... reading it just because it’s one of the genre Miéville explores in his versatility?

IG: I prioritised it because it was Mieville and I'd heard such good things about the moderator ;)

N: Do you have any background in linguistics/languages?

IG: I used to speak and read German fluently at school and university. I could speak French at school, but have forgotten it all. I have read some Chomsky, but not studied linguistics. I studied semiotics through the French Department in about 1982, when much material was being translated into English.

N: We meet Bren.

IG: So far, I think of Bren as "Gentle Bren".

N: We get a recollection from Avice on becoming a simile

IG: I haven't got the idea of the simile yet. Avice performs or does the simile. Does she become a picture or a sign? It sounds to me like being a Signifier (as if that word was not just a linguistic or semiotic term, but a status in society as well), but I don't know its significance yet. Why the bruises? What else happened? I'm interested in the concept of "performing" a simile. Some language is performative, in the sense that it "performs" what it says, as it says it. For example, to make a law by saying "it is illegal to smoke" or "smoking is prohibited" is "performative". The legal status of prohibition is constituted by the saying.

N: Finally, we meet Scile, Avice’s husband, the one obsessed with languages. I find it interesting that, unlike the traditional sci-fi/fantasy males that sweep ladies off their feet twenty times before breakfast, Scile cannot satisfy Avice sexually as they are quite incompatible. Thoughts?

IG: I might have missed something. I thought they just stopped having sex. I don't know the cause. I assumed it was a physical consequence of the stress of immersion, not a permanent condition or incapacity. I appreciate he loves language and reading. Does that make you sterile? I hope not, though I've had all the kids I intend to.

N: Avice’s confession that...she ‘recall[s] episodes, not a timeline.’

IG: I took this to mean she did not have a chronological memory. I had a lecturer who had a photographic memory. He remembered everything he read and saw, but it was in chronological order and was not integrated or selected or prioritised. He had to flick through from beginning to end to arrive at the present or a composite view. It was a burden to him. Impressionism allows us to find things more directly and quickly.

N: Immer.

IG: I haven't got a clear picture of what it is yet. It is the German word for "always". "Manchmal" is sometimes. In case it becomes relevant the expression "immer noch" means "still" in the time sense, not the movement sense.

[Ian]

Derek wrote: ""People say it as a way to stress the strangeness of the immer; the implication being that there’s something in that foundational altreality that plays buggery with human minds. (Which it can do, certainly, but not like that.) It’s not true, but it is the case that I, and most of the immersers I’ve known, have casual, or vague, or discombobulated memories of when we were small. I don’t think it’s a mystery: I think it’s a corollary of our mindsets, the way we think,..."

So "people" think that it works the way I said, but "people" (like me) are wrong :) "

Re the experience of the immer, I got the impression that the immersers had something in their constitution that caused or allowed them to deal differently with the immer. However, that quality was not caused by the immer.

[Ian]

Derek wrote: "And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?"

I also wondered whether Ubiq might have been a place name.

[Derek, Miéville fan-boi]

Ian wrote: " I got the impression that the immersers had something in their constitution that caused or allowed them to deal differently with the immer. However, that quality was not caused by the immer. "

Yes, I believe that's true. But Avice is quite adamant that whatever immer does to them, it doesn't actually affect their memories.

I also wondered whether Ubiq might have been a place name.

As did I, so I googled, and couldn't find any evidence that it's derived from any place that exists now, but could well have meaning in the intervening time between now and Embassytown.

N: Scile cannot satisfy Avice sexually as they are quite incompatible. Thoughts?

IG: I might have missed something. I thought they just stopped having sex

No, from the first, Avice says that they don't "enjoy sex". The first time they meet, they "stumbled off after a while and spent a night and a day trying to enjoy sex together, sleeping, trying again, several times, with good-humoured lack of success." And there's no suggestion that it ever got better... Colour me perplexed. I'm old enough to not actually have sex, but I can't imagine actually marrying somebody with whom I wouldn't have sex...

[Ian]

Thanks, Derek.

34 There is a discussion of the difference between the immer and the manchmal in terms of "langue" and "parole".

These are terms of semiotics used by Saussure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langue_a...

Langue is the structure and rules of the language, while parole is the use of it in actual or concrete circumstances, the actual speech acts or things we say (with the language).

CM describes immer as a foundation for the manchmal or everyday actuality in which they live.

I assume that, to travel at the speed and for the distance (billions of kilometers) the immernauts do, they have to escape the actuality of the manchmal, i.e., by "breaching the meniscus of everyday space".

[Ian]

Some commonality with PSS:

* 39, 43 the sexual incompatibility;

* 40 the Homash language, which consists of regurgitating pellets embedded with enzymes in different combinations to form sentences, which their interlocutors eat. This recalls how Lin painted by spitting onto a canvas or surface.

[Ian]

43 "hai" = immer predators, aggregates of immer, immer chaos, monsters,

the ability or inability to see "the deep random"

[Ian]

"Floaker" - There is a connotation of "idleness" with respect to this word. I think it is closer in meaning to "flake" or "flaker" or the Australian words "bludge" or "bludger".

Something happened several months ago that resulted in Avice not being in fulltime employment?

[Nataliya]

Ian wrote: ""Floaker" - There is a connotation of "idleness" with respect to this word. I think it is closer in meaning to "flake" or "flaker" or the Australian words "bludge" or "bludger".

Something happened several months ago that resulted in Avice not being in fulltime employment? "

Yes, just the sound of that word seems to imply its meaning.
And yes - she's at Embassytown with Scile, since he kept wanting to see the world of the Hosts.

Ian wrote: "Derek wrote: "And what, precisely, is "Ubiq"? "Ubiquitous"?"

I also wondered whether Ubiq might have been a place name."

I'm fairly sure it's just 'ubiquitous'. It fulfills the role of the Common Tongue in fantasy/sci-fi (basically what English does anyway in the modern world).

[Ian]

I agree about Ubiq. When I hear it, I mishear it as Uzbek and think of warlords.

[Nataliya]

Ian wrote: "I agree about Ubiq. When I hear it, I mishear it as Uzbek and think of warlords."

I wish it were Uzbek! Former Soviet Union pride ;)
My grandma is from Kazakhstan which is just next door to the Uzbeks.

[Ian]

That explains why you are my warlord and moderator!

[Nataliya]

Warlady, sir ;)

[Ian]

Haha. A warlady sounds like something you could catch.

[Ian]

How are you all pronouncing Avice? As in something naughty?

[Nataliya]

Ian wrote: "How are you all pronouncing Avice? As in something naughty?"

Haha! I pronounce it like 'Alice' with a 'v'.

[Ian]

So not even A-veese?

[Nataliya]

Ian wrote: "So not even A-veese?"

Not in my head :)
But there probably is an audiobook of it; I wonder how they said it there. With 'Avice' and 'Yohn' in the beginning of the book, my brain just went to what appeared to be their closest relatives in English names.
But there's a good chance that I've been mispronouncing it all this time.

[Robert]

Wonderfully narrated by Susan Duerden, she pronounces it AVeese'.

The hosts' names are sounded with special effects so that they do not sound like any familiar words within any language I've ever heard.

[Nataliya]

Robert wrote: "Wonderfully narrated by Susan Duerden, she pronounces it AVeese'.

The hosts' names are sounded with special effects so that they do not sound like any familiar words within any language I've ever..."

Okay, so different than I thought. Now I'll try to correct my mental pronunciation when I read the rest of this book - we'll see how well that's going to work.

[Ian]

Thanks, Robert. I didn't want the pronunciation to sound too much like Avarice.