Miévillians discussion
This topic is about
Embassytown
Embassytown Discussion
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SECTION 1: Proem: The Immerser (0.1-0.3)
Ian wrote: "At some point I would like to initiate a discussion about the female voice in Embassytown.How do you feel about any author writing with the voice of another gender? Can it ever be authentic or co..."
I think a good male writer can easily pull off an excellent and convincing female voice (I cannot, for the reason of my female gender, vouch for female authors doing the same with the male narrative voice). I have read the examples of very poor execution of male writer/female narrator approach, but CM, luckily, is better than that. Avice's voice has never struck me as fake; it sounds perfectly normal to me as a woman.
I think the real question is whether the male and female narrative voices should ever sound that different. When you get past the gender stereotypes of what we are supposed to be like (writing about a woman - please insert more emotion here, writing about a man - please insert some sternness and action here - that kind of things), I think our voices would not be all that different. CM does not appear to try to insert all the 'female' stereotypes in his writing, which could be why it sounds genuine.
Robert wrote: "Wonderfully narrated by Susan Duerden, she pronounces it AVeese'. "So good to hear, since that's how CM's been pronouncing it in my head...
How about Scile's name. Is it just "silly"?
Annie wrote: "How about Scile's name. Is it just "silly"?"Good question. I've been pronouncing it "Sile" as in "silo" without the "o".
Ian wrote: "Annie wrote: "How about Scile's name. Is it just "silly"?"Good question. I've been pronouncing it "Sile" as in "silo" without the "o"."
I pronounce it 'SY-lee".
Nataliya wrote: "I pronounce it 'SY-lee"."Rhymes with Smiley? :o)
Ian wrote: "Nataliya wrote: "I pronounce it 'SY-lee"."Rhymes with Smiley? :o)"
That's right :)
I'm way too literal. "Skile". Rhymes with isle.
Ian wrote: "Annie wrote: "How about Scile's name. Is it just "silly"?"Good question. I've been pronouncing it "Sile" as in "silo" without the "o"."
Again, per Ms. Duerden's pronunciation, it's single syllable with long i. It's as you "hear" it, Ian.
What do you think Hosts look like?
Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"The text claims: "We looked at our Hosts and saw insect-horse-coral-fan things." Go figure ;)
Ian wrote: "...How do you feel about any author writing with the voice of another gender? Can it ever be authentic or convincing?..."I think the gender of the author only becomes relevant when they fail to convince. Avice isn't a fluffy, girly sort of woman, but I would have little interest in reading such a story. She came across as plausibly female to me.
Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"I don't think we're meant to have a clear idea. Mieville drops little clues throughout the book, but it takes a long time to build up a picture, which remains somewhat fuzzy. I think that's probably good: isn't he (indirectly) telling us not to judge by outward appearance? Of course, it's also a teasing tactic, which entices the reader to keep reading, and avoids distracting from the main force of the story.
Cecily wrote: "Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"I don't think we're meant to have a clear idea. Mieville drops little clues throughout the book, but it takes a long time to build up a picture, ..."
It's like he's keeping the Hosts as incomprehensible to us physically as they are incomprehensible to the Embassytowners in all the other ways.
Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"My whole challenge with Mieville is that we are, or at least I am never clear about a great deal. I don't know if other readers have to work as hard as I at understanding his writing. I am not speaking here of vocabulary or choice of words. That part is wonderful.
Does this author go out of his way to make the read fundamentally difficult? One can clearly describe someone or something but, because of where we all are and where we come from, we can "get" very different interpretations. Or we can understand the writing at different levels. That kind of writing I fully admire and appreciate.
Just because I always walk away from each of this book's chapters with a headache, I don't mean to imply Mieville really got to me. Stanislaw Lem in Solaris chronicles a similar but utter futility in attempting to communicate with a sentient planet. For me it was a page-turner forward that I hoped would not soon end rather than a book I constantly page backward, trying to figure out, scratching my head exclaiming: WTF?
My inital impression of the Hosts was that they were tall, rather tall hairy creatures like the larger characters on Sesame Street : ) Then I read about horse like feet and 4 long legs which I thought were black. There are coral eyebrows and multifaceted or many separate eyes looking in several directions at once. I have the impression that their eyes pop out when surprised. Then I remembered the Weaver in PSS and her very poetic language. CM likes spiders.
Robert wrote: "...Does this author go out of his way to make the read fundamentally difficult? ..."I honestly didn't find it difficult in that way, but very tantalising - maybe I became a little addicted to Language?
Robert wrote: "Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"My whole challenge with Mieville is that we are, or at least I am never clear about a great deal. I don't know if other readers have to work as h..."
Robert,
I was feeling a bit of similar frustration the first time I read 'Perdido Street Station' which was my first exposure to Miéville's style. Interestingly, I noted that the more I read of his books, the easier and less frustrating the experience became. I think I desensitized myself to the quirks of his particular approach to writing and storytelling.
He's definitely of the Less-is-More school. Too much exposition interferes with your own ability to imagine. Some people are going to like that, some will hate it. I can't stand being given detailed descriptions of anything in a story.
Derek wrote: "He's definitely of the Less-is-More school. Too much exposition interferes with your own ability to imagine. Some people are going to like that, some will hate it. I can't stand being given detaile..."I only like exposition to a reasonable degree, just enough to help me imagine the settings and the characters. What I dislike is over-detailing, especially descriptions of people, down to the eye color, hair style, jawline and exact clothes they wear (unless for some reason it's vitally important to the plot). I like when authors show trust in their readers imaginations as well as in their own ability to lay down sufficient groundwork to make that imagination work.
What an amazing group of comments we have here! And Nataliya, your intro was dazzling as well, a great lead-in to this read. I have to say that I am learning as much (or more) from the threads as I am from the book.I am certainly enjoying the early portion of the book, and I think the writing is extraordinary – though frustrating in places as Robert said, as the terms gradually clarify themselves in context. The comments here on definitions are extremely helpful! The writing is masterful in all sorts of ways, with a dazzling array of ideas as CM fans know very well.
My only previous read of CM was PSS with this group. My early sense here is that the writing is smooth(er), full of portent and deliberately ambiguous with respect to many details. Tantalizing as Cecily said, but also confusing as Robert pointed out. By contrast, my view of PSS was of a more rambunctious, violent, and kinetic narrative, with a background of all kinds of organic stench in a broken, bureaucratic world. Here, the narrative thrust is not at all obvious to me, not clearly focused on quest(s) early on as it was in PSS. But I think I can see hints of big things coming as the Languages take a primary role.
Another (apparent) contrast with PSS is that the bureaucracy here seems more coherent and efficient and less threatening, at least so far. In PSS there was obvious political intimidation backed by brute force, but equally obvious ineptitude and uncontrolled outcomes. I very much look forward to seeing this saga unfold.
Just a couple of thoughts on Nataliya’s opening questions. I have read a modest number of sci-fi books - I certainly plan to read more, and Le Guin’s books are a priority though I haven’t gotten there yet. I love the flow of creative ideas in good sci-fi, and CM puts a big charge in that aspect of the genre with his flashy and scholarly prose.
I have very little formal background in linguistics, just bits and pieces I have picked up from grad students and lectures over the years. I am, however, comfortable with the Language-related sections of the writing so far (I think). I do have some knowledge about how the brain processes language and the associated neurological syndromes, and that might come in handy as we go along.
Finally, I agree with Ian’s comments about the performance of a simile – I didn’t really fit that part into a proper context as yet. Maybe we will learn more about that soon…
Jim wrote: "...I agree with Ian’s comments about the performance of a simile – I didn’t really fit that part into a proper context as yet. Maybe we will learn more about that soon… "You will get it - but not soon and not all in one go. I hope you find it worth the wait.
I'm just going to put down for the record a definition of a simile as a figure of speech that suggests that two unlike things are alike.Do you like that? Haha.
And thanks, Guru Cecily. And Guru Nat, of course.
Well, that's what a simile is in the grammatical sense, but to the Hosts, they are far more significant and intriguing. ;)
Jim wrote: "In PSS there was obvious political intimidation backed by brute force, but equally obvious ineptitude and uncontrolled outcomes."Interesting point. In Embassytown, we have less obvious political intimidation backed by innuendo and social pressure (and complete control of Embassytown's economy by Bremen).
And in later sections of the book, relations between humans and Hosts have strong echoes of a very shameful period in the history of the British Empire - far worse than mere politics and social pressure.
Cecily wrote: "You will get it - but not soon and not all in one go. I hope you find it worth the wait.""And in later sections of the book, relations between humans and Hosts have strong echoes of a very shameful period in the history of the British Empire - far worse than mere politics and social pressure."
Thanks for these and all of your comments, Cecily! Very nicely placed signposts for the way ahead.
Derek wrote: "Interesting point. In Embassytown, we have less obvious political intimidation backed by innuendo and social pressure (and complete control of Embassytown's economy by Bremen)..."Well said, Derek, and I appreciate the differentiation and perspective.
Ian wrote: "I'm just going to put down for the record a definition of a simile as a figure of speech that suggests that two unlike things are alike."Oh blasphemy!
As for the bureaucracy, Jim - I will just echo what the rest of us have said. You just wait and see - what's to come is rather unexpected, I must say.
I would never willingly blaspheme our godlike moderator. Or is that blasphemous?
Ian wrote: "I would never willingly blaspheme our godlike moderator."Flattered :)
But the Ariekei aren't.
I wonder whether there is any religious significance in the choice of the name "Host" for the Arieki, apart the fact that we are on their territory.
Ian wrote: "I wonder whether there is any religious significance in the choice of the name "Host" for the Arieki, apart the fact that we are on their territory."The way the story develops, you will get to reflect on the significance of the choice to use or not to use the word 'Hosts' as the story progresses and the events set up in parts I-III finally unleash the consequences on us. I have something to say on this point, but I'm trying to be my own spoiler police here.
Of course. If not you, who?
Sorry, I'm finding CM's writing highly directiomal. There is a really significant narrative drive, whether a push or a pull, I don't know.
Nataliya wrote: "As for the bureaucracy, Jim - I will just echo what the rest of us have said. You just wait and see - what's to come is rather unexpected, I must say..."Sounds good! I look forward to it.
Annie wrote: "What do you think Hosts look like?"After a bit of searching I decided to take the simplest path and look at the cover.
Ahem, here's the artist's rendition of the Host. The small four-legged creature left of Avice. At least that's something:
I really don't like that illustration (which is NOT a complaint about posting it). It's not at all how I imagine any of it. So I'm now wondering if my reading is adrift from Mieville's writing, or whether the illustrator used too much artistic licence. What do others think?
Andrea wrote: "I need to re-read The Left Hand of Darkness. Le Guin vs CM? Hmmm...its a hard choice to say who is the better author, CM more prolific and in your face terribly clever, LG more subtle yet just as ..."
Le Guin less prolific? Hmmmm, It may be true when we look back a hundred years from now, but I think Le Guin currently has out written CM about two to one.
Cecily wrote: "I really don't like that illustration (which is NOT a complaint about posting it). It's not at all how I imagine any of it. So I'm now wondering if my reading is adrift from Mieville's writing, or ..."I've found the prose so open and fluid that I can't help but imagine Embassytown as spacious and pristine and designed. Ancient Rome or Athens seems to come to mind.
I lived in Canberra for five years when I was at university. It is an Embassy town, and has the features I mention. The social aspects of Embassytown really remind me of life in the diplomatic community. It is another world.
I imagined Embassytown as far more colourful (albeit a little greyer when...(avoiding spoiler)) and also a bit more gelatinous. Avice looks too androgynous; for some reason (and I'm sure it's not mentioned explicitly), I pictured her as more conventionally glamorous.
Ruth wrote: "Le Guin less prolific? Hmmmm, It may be true when we look back a hundred years from now, but I think Le Guin currently has out written CM about two to one. "I'd never take "prolific" as meaning a sheer count of output. Miéville has been writing for a far shorter time. If it's only 2-1, then Miéville is far ahead, as he's only been published since 2000 and Le Guin has been published for 55 years. otoh, it looks to me as if Le Guin has put out a bit more than a book a year throughout her career, and Miéville is a little short of that.
Cecily wrote: "I really don't like that illustration (which is NOT a complaint about posting it). It's not at all how I imagine any of it."It's a cover illustration! You surely didn't expect it to match an actual reader's interpretation, did you? At least she's wearing clothes...
Ian wrote: "I've found the prose so open and fluid that I can't help but imagine Embassytown as spacious and pristine and designed. Ancient Rome or Athens seems to come to mind. "
otoh, Avice explains how they can only live within the boundaries of the aeoli breath. Which has made me feel that it's very constrained (even though it's old enough and large enough that it has ruined, uninhabited, areas). otgh, living in an area circumscribed by the "aeoli" is likely to make one think of Greece, if not actually of Athens.
Cecily wrote: "I imagined Embassytown as far more colourful (albeit a little greyer when...(avoiding spoiler)) and also a bit more gelatinous. Avice looks too androgynous; for some reason (and I'm sure it's not m..."I thought of this version of the Host city on the left as the 'after' version (but no spoilers here). As for the Embassytown side - it actually looks close to what I imagined except for I imagined it as more crammed with buildings (at some point Avice does mention that due to space restrictions - just like Ian says about the aeoli breath - their streets are too narrow even for cars.) I'm not sure where ruined areas come into this, but she does mention that constraints of space are such that the buildings just 'happen' to sprout extra add-on rooms.
As for androgynous look of Avice - well, given that she's wearing an aeoli mask, I assumed that she's from the second half of the book here, when too much was happening for her to remain glamorous in any way.
Derek wrote: "It's a cover illustration! You surely didn't expect it to match an actual reader's interpretation, did you? At least she's wearing clothes......"Ha ha.
Nataliya wrote: "...As for androgynous look of Avice - well, given that she's wearing an aeoli mask, I assumed that she's from the second half of the book here ..."
Yes, I realise that, but it's still just a bit "off" in a way I can't quite put into words. That's the trouble with illustrations!
Cecily wrote: "Derek wrote: "It's a cover illustration! You surely didn't expect it to match an actual reader's interpretation, did you? At least she's wearing clothes......"Ha ha.."
What? Don't they do market research?
Ian wrote: "What? Don't they do market research?"I wonder if anybody really knows who makes up CM's "market".
I presume his agent and publishers do some - and I expect his appeal is slightly more disparate than some other authors classed as sci-fi.
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How do you feel about any author writing with the voice of another gender? Can it ever be authentic or convincing?
Does CM do a better job than others? When you read Avice, do you imagine CM pulling the strings? Does Avice sound to female readers like a male dressed up to look or sound like a woman?