What Would You Like to See More/Less of in YA?

[Ottilie]

Haha you two are walking advertisements for traditional publishing!

[Casey]

I'm agree with alot of what people are saying about romance. Having romance in a YA book is fine, and really as they say "every story is a love story" but, as Jenny said, we need books where the plot isn't driven by the romance. Instead maybe the romance is a result of the plot. The characters go through these amazing trails together and then realize they are in love. Instead of love being the big deal of the whole book.
It seems like many people want the same things. It's too bad the publishers are afraid to take the risk. But, how many of us actually BUY these kinds of things we are talking about? How many times do we look for it? A lot of times I end up picking up what everyone else is talking about...even if it's more romance centered etc.
Money drives the publishing industry just like every other one, unfortunately.

Ohhh here's an idea. Carina, why don't you make a challenge based off what people say they want and don't want in YA from this thread? We have to find books without romance as the main plot, with a strong MC, not dystopian or not paranormal...etc? Give some options since some still want dystopian and paranormal etc. But woudln't it be cool to do a challenge based off this discussion thread??

[Cynthia]

I just wanted to say thanks for everyone's input in this thread. I am a YA author and I often think about what people want to read and whether I should put in romance etc. I personally like a little romance in my books but not main focus of the story. I hate love triangles. I prefer my stories to end as well, even if it is a series they should be independant.

I would love to see more stories about witches. Vampires are overrated and done to death, but I never tire of witches. I'd love to see some more Sci fi too.

[Jenny]

Cynthia wrote: "
I prefer my stories to end as well, even if it is a series they should be independant."

Yes.

To clarify, I LOVE series. I just want more standalone options. It's ridiculous how few there are outside of realistic fiction.

[Frank]

Wow, so much of what's being discussed my brother (co-author) and I talked about before starting our book. We tried to do a bunch of unique things and tried to stay away from a lot of the cliches we saw in other fantasy novels suitable for YA readers.

About the only thing listed that surprised me was more male protagonists, but maybe I've been reading the wrong books. I know we were trying for strong female characters and not the swooning school girl, so maybe we have that covered as well.

Lots of good inputs on this thread though. I'll try to keep some of this in mind as we write our sequel.

[Kat]

This thread is awesome!

I've been asking on several forums (on Goodreads and other sites) about what readers want/don't want in YA. I'm teaching a workshop on writing for the YA/teen market and have been looking for others' pet peeves and such.

It seems that overwhelming complaints are: Too much focus on female protags and romance (esp. paranormal) and too many love triangles.

Other ways of phrasing it have been not enough male protags and not enough sci-fi/adventure/horror.

I have to share: I went to B&N the other day. Pretty much EVERY teen book on the shelves were paranormal romance. I wanted to scream. I had a list of books I *would have* bought, but they weren't on the shelves. Of course they involved: Male protags. Sci-fi. Not romance. Sigh.

I am so glad to see other readers with the same frustrations. And writers--it seems those of us trying to break out of that mold are all dealing with the same thing (agents who say "not enough romance" and whatnot). Now only if publishers would start listening...

[Kelley]

It would be nice to see some sci-fi/adventure/horror which have male protagonists but still have interesting female characters. It would be especially nice to see the guys and gals interact and share an adventure and develop a close bond of comradeship WITHOUT falling in love.

I'm really not interested in reading stories in which there are no female characters at all, or in which a female has been thrown in to be "the Girl," and is given no purpose in the plot beyond that.

I guess what I'd like to see are more, better books that have something to offer male AND female readers. I find books with cross-gender appeal far more rewarding than books that are very obviously written with a one-gender audience in mind.

[Kat]

Kelley wrote: "It would be nice to see some sci-fi/adventure/horror which have male protagonists but still have interesting female characters. It would be especially nice to see the guys and gals interact and sha..."

Very good point. No reason to swing the pendulum all the way to the other side. Having a male MC doesn't mean the girls can't play major roles.

[Jenny]

I like female POVs, particularly strong females. It's just that YA is SO female dominant right now (mostly female authors, mostly female characters, mostly female readers - I mean look at the ratio of females to males in this group alone), and I would like to see more of a balance.

[Kat]

Jenny wrote: "I like female POVs, particularly strong females. It's just that YA is SO female dominant right now (mostly female authors, mostly female characters, mostly female readers - I mean look at the ratio..."

This has become a big topic of conversation a lot lately--I've seen threads on Facebook and quite a few blog posts.

What I think has happened is that the publishing industry knows the "majority" of readers are female, so books are almost always published with female readers in mind. It ends up tipping the scale too far. It's one thing to say 60%* of readers are female. Fine, so then 60% of books should be geared specifically for them. What happens though is that everyone wants to cash in on the majority, and you end up with 90% of books being aimed at the 60% of readers.

*BTW--those numbers are me just pulling from the air. But it illustrates my point.

[Dan]

I'd like to see more books with strong male and female protagonists, with chapters and scenes from each one's point of view. I'd also like to see less emphasis on the romance.

I enjoy dystopian novels and would like to see more of them, but not necessarily triologies or even two-book ones, and less copy-cat themes.

[Casey]

I would definitely like more stand alone books.

[shanghao]

I'm not sure if I'm biased or anything, but as of late I've noticed a pattern whereby I enjoy a YA book much more when the protagonist isn't a female or when the book is written by a male author. Perhaps it's a matter of the protag's perspective - I notice male authors tend to focus more on the adventure and plot whereas female authors, especially younger ones, tend to focus on self-esteem issues faced by the protagonist. And most of my problem come from the way these are handled - the female protagonists come off as self-pitying Mary Sues who need some plot or other characters' adulation to assure that they're 'good' rather than the characters owning the plot because of their traits.

It's just that I find characters created by younger female authors tend to think the world revolves around them and behave that way. It's fine if the characters do grow, and it does happen in some books but most of the time this pattern becomes a turn-off for further reading.

I really don't mind love triangles or the like. The point is the romance needs to be done well and not as a tool to somehow fish compliments or I don't know, brownie points for the already Mary Sue-esque character who 'doesn't know that she's in fact capable/beautiful/etc'.

So far those YA books I've read with the romance portion done well have all been written by more mature authors (male or female), so I really hope there could be younger authors who could prove me wrong and produce a pleasant surprise.

[Annie]

I absolutely hate love triangles. It makes me want to roll my eyes and scream ” just choose one!” At the book.

[shanghao]

For me, even without love triangles, if the romance is done badly it's still just bad. If it's done well even with love quadrangles it'd be enjoyable to read.

[[deleted user]]

i agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. Young authors do tend to bass their books heavily on romance. I would like to read more were the main character is thrown into an epic fight for survival.

i think that if you are going to put romance in then it should be a slow romance and not just jumped right into and distract the reader from the main story.

[Ottilie]

I agree with Tegan, a realistic building relationship, not a whirl wind, 'I don't know you today, but tomorrow I'll be in love with you so much I'll die without out'.

[Travis]

As a male reader of YA, I can definitely see that they are mostly written for a female audience. I'm good with reading a female character especially if she has a Kick-A personality, but more male characters (who are not brooding pieces of man-candy) would be nice. That is why I love the Demon King and its sequels by CWC. Even though it is written by a female author, the story gets divided up between a male and female lead.

[Dan]

I agree with Travis about Chima's Seven Realms novels. They're some of my favorite. Each one has a strong female and male protagonist and the story switches between both points of view, which can appeal to both female and male readers. There's a lot of action and the romance isn't the central focus of the story. Plus Chima is a wonderful storyteller.

[Travis]

I think I should add that romance isn't a deal breaker for guys as long as the action is there and the guy acts like a guy and not a Ken doll. A balance should definitely be maintained.

[Jenny]

lol reversing the gaze

[Stacia (the 2010 club), groupaholic, YA-MA founder]

Travis wrote: "I think I should add that romance isn't a deal breaker for guys as long as the action is there and the guy acts like a guy and not a Ken doll. A balance should definitely be maintained."

I like your attitude Travis.

[Hillary]

Travis wrote: "...more male characters (who are not brooding pieces of man-candy) would be nice."


This highly amuses me! It doesn't hurt that I also agree, but still! :D

[Stacia (the 2010 club), groupaholic, YA-MA founder]

Although I do prefer brooding, mysterious men to the straight-up aholes that have been trending lately.

[[deleted user]]

I prefer a mail lead who's a mysterious, arrogant asshole who slowly loosens up

[Casey]

It would be neat to see a guy that's just a decent guy. Without a super power or a deep dark secret or that is an asshole. Just a normal guy going through a plot just like the females typically do.

[[deleted user]]

just your average everyday Jo then

[Katy]

Casey wrote: "It would be neat to see a guy that's just a decent guy. Without a super power or a deep dark secret or that is an asshole. Just a normal guy going through a plot just like the females typically do."

You should read . He's a sweet love interest :)

[Jenny]

Yay Jay!

[Emma]

I wrote a blog post last week about overused tropes in YA fiction, and insta love/ love triangles were top of my list! I like to write the kind of books I enjoy reading, and I prefer books to be focused on character and action than on romance, love triangle or not.

I've been in the same situation with my book being repeatedly rejected for being paranormal without a focus on romance (there's romance in the series but it never becomes the focus of the story). Fortunately my book's been picked up by Curiosity Quills, a small press who publish a variety of spec-fic and it isn't all mainstream. Maybe the future of originality lies with small press/indie publishers and authors!

[Casey]

Katy wrote: You should read The Body Finder (The Body Finder, #1). He's a sweet love interest :) "

Added to my to read list! Thankss

[Heather]

I love YA and so does my 13 year old daughter, so I would like to see a few more underlying themes such as hope; individualism; sense of self; conquering fears.

i think she would benefit greatly! :)

[Elena]

It's already been said a lot but I really do hate love triangles! Unless they are written incredibly well and add real emotional depth to the plot of the story (Never Let Me Go, Kazuo Ishiguro - just incredible!) then I don't think they're worth including - they're not realistic (how many people actually find themselves in love triangles in real life)and they just distract from the larger concept / point of the story - I will mention here The Hunger Games. These books are fantastic, but the movies have played upon the love traingle with Peeta and Gale which detracts from the main part of the story - Katniss sacrificing herself to save her little sister.

It would be nice to see a book where the leading male and female protagonist are simply 'buddies' and get along like bezzie mates. Everyone knows a guy or a girl who has always been there as a mate and probably always will, and it would be nice to see these relationships represented in books - why is there always a push for a romantic storyline? There's plenty of other aspects to include in a book to make it riveting!

[Jen (at last!)]

Elena wrote: "It's already been said a lot but I really do hate love triangles! Unless they are written incredibly well and add real emotional depth to the plot of the story (Never Let Me Go, Kazuo Ishiguro - ju..."

You read my mind, Elena! I hate love triangles, too! I didn't know a single girl in high school who was in one(myself included). lol

[Jenny]

I guess I'm in the minority but I don't think love triangles are unrealistic. I've been in situations in which multiple guys have liked me at the same time. Many of my friends, and myself, have liked someone who liked someone else or who had a girlfriend, etc. I've been jealous because of situations like these. I've broken hearts. I think a lot of people probably have been in these situations and don't consider it a love triangle, because these situations aren't usually so overt in real life.

I sometimes like seeing these confusing situations show up in YA because I think there are many teens who do feel these sorts of conflicting feelings. I think it can be particularly common with friendships, which I think is why a lot of them involve the one guy in the friend zone or who may not even realize he has a crush until the girl gets attention from someone else and suddenly he's jealous. Is that sort of thing unrealistic? I don't believe so. I mean how many friendships have been strained or destroyed because two people like the same person?

I do think that a lot of the time they're a bigger deal in books than they need to be, or the feelings are exaggerated and heightened to the point of eye-rolling, or they are written in a way that makes them sort of ridiculous.
A few stories with multiple love interests that I think do a good job of it: Vampire Academy, Demon Trappers, Infernal Devices.
These stories' love triangles/squares/dodecagons/whatever feel natural to me.

But my #1 problem I think with love triangles in YA is that most of the time they're used as devices to hook the reader - like the author just wants people to keep reading to see who gets chosen or something. And romance should not be the primary driving plot device of a book in which the action and plot and themes should take precedence - the plot should be enough to make people want to see what happens next. Now, these often overly cheesy love triangles have become something that publishers feel need to be included to hook readers. Heroines are so indecisive in this matter that it takes a whole trilogy to kick one to the curb. It feels then not like a naturally confusing element of life but rather something that is unnaturally forced into the story to create drama and sell books. And that's lame. And it makes me mad.

[Carina]

One of the reasons I loved Seth from the Georgina Kincaid series, was because he was an average looking, nerdy, author. Are you kidding?? I was so all over that!

[Carina]

I hate love triangles for the same resons you do, Jenny.

[Travis]

On the issue of love triangles- 1. Isn't a relationship with just one person complicated enough? 2. Spoiler Alert: She chooses the A-hole with the abs not the nice looking BFF. I'm sorry if I just ruined your book.

[Emily]

I also think a lot of things are called Love Triangles that aren't actually love triangles. If a character genuinely has feelings for two different people, okay. But I've seen other situations where a third party pines after someone in a relationship and the person in the relationship may be friends with #3 but have no romantic interest, and then reviews complain about the love triangle. (Shades of Earth is my most recent example of this.) I don't consider that a love triangle. That is unrequited feelings.

[Giulia]

I think the whole "incredibly hot male characters" has been abused: it's not realistic that every male character is gourgeous and I'd rather see relationships where the people fall for each other's personality rather than their looks.

The same thing could be said for female characters too.

[Travis]

I think that 'bout sums it up, Kelley.

[Jenny]

There's a massive difference between being small and being waifish. Katniss is small but is never portrayed to be weak. And I think it's important to show girls that, though they may be small, they can be strong and do big things. To associate a small stature with being waifish is a mistake. I don't mean to pick or whatever but this is a pet peeve with me. I've always been small. I've never been frail or weak.

But I do agree that there should be characters of many shapes and sizes. Many books, particularly of certain genres, maybe stick to a specific formula, but then most of those books seem to be written with certain clichés in mind and aren't particularly great either.

There are plenty other books though whose characters are diverse in shape and size:
: The main character Elisa is fat.
: Anna has a large gap between her front teeth and is 3 inches taller than her love interest.
: Tessa is very tall compared to the other girls and Jem is a love interest who is skinny. A point is made in this series that Jem's thin framed body is just as beautiful as, but in a way that is different than, the muscular beauty of one of the other boys.
: Augustus has one leg.
The protagonists in all of his other books are skinny, awkward, nonmuscular sorts of boys.
: Four best friends all of different heights and weights and body types.
: Jordan (a girl) is 6 feet tall and athletic.
: The love interest in this one is tall and skinny, with a large nose. He's specifically described as not resembling the heroes of romantic novels.

And in Hunger Games, Peeta is described as short and stocky.

[Leonie]

Heather wrote: "I love YA and so does my 13 year old daughter, so I would like to see a few more underlying themes such as hope; individualism; sense of self; conquering fears.

i think she would benefit greatly..."

I'm in agreement with you here, Heather. I think girls have so much to cope with in terms of early sexualisation and appearance centred media in the real world, that a book that is focused on other things (but still character driven) can be amazingly refreshing.

Emma wrote: "I wrote a blog post last week about overused tropes in YA fiction, and insta love/ love triangles were top of my list! I like to write the kind of books I enjoy reading, and I prefer books to be fo..."
If it's any encouragement Emma, some of the reviews of my book have pointed to the lack of romance as a significant plus - and congrats on your publication deal! I think that small press may well have a role to play on breaking away from stereotypical literature.

[Casey]

Is anyone else getting tired of prequels? And inbetween novellas? I don't mind if you start a whole new series based in the same world but years before, like the type books.
What I dislike are all the ".05" and "2.5" books. It seems like a cop out, like, oh I forgot to put this in the story before so I'll make a new book. Or worse, I didn't think this was good enough for the book but since people are already hooked maybe they will spend more money on this puny book.
It seems more about the money then the writing. Am I alone in this thought?

[Travis]

.5's can either be a fun way to stay in a fantastic world or a cheap trick by a beloved author. I've read both and my opinion is split. As long as they don't delay their next "real" book because of it, I guess it's cool with me.

[Dee]

I like them if they are handled as a full story - albiet shorter - rather than a slice of life - like Nalini Singh has quite a few in her psy-changling series - they are shorts about couples who were minor roles in other books but not quite enough for a full 350pg plus novel

[Jenny]

Casey wrote: "Is anyone else getting tired of prequels? And inbetween novellas?"

I like them quite a bit, actually. I think they're fun. I enjoy short stories, especially if they're set in worlds that I already love. Before recently they would have all been bound up into an anthology of various contributors (and some still are, of course), but I like that with ebook shorts we have the option to purchase a short story for cheaper rather than, say, having to purchase a large anthology when we're only interested in one or two of the stories in it. And many of them are free or can be read online for free even if the ebooks cost money, such as the ones that are posted on Tor.com but cost $0.99 to purchase as an ebook. Amazon's Send to Kindle button means that I can send the story from its page on tor.com (or the author's blog, etc.) to my Kindle and then have it in my library for free without having to pay a dollar just to put it on my ereader. Maybe they're partly for the extra bits of money, but I think they're more about an author giving his/her fans something to enjoy while they're waiting on a sequel and doing it in a way that makes it easily accessible.

[Gwennie]

I tend to skip them unless someone tells me something important happens, in terms of future plot (like The New Hunger). Or unless it's a character I really really loved.

[Travis]

I think it works in Sci-fi in part because of the success that short stories have always had in the genre. I loved the short stories in Enderverse.

[Stacia (the 2010 club), groupaholic, YA-MA founder]

I'm tired of the shorts. It's actually been a recent complaint of mine. I have so much in front of me that I want to read that I don't always want to read every single side story or back story of a series, with a few exceptions.

So I'm with Wendy, most of the time I skip them if I know I can, unless I'm in love with a series.

There's a new trend with some of these series where if you skip an "in-between," you might miss an important piece of information. I would have been lost reading Touch book 2 without having read 1.5. I was surprised to see that Unraveling 1.5 was not just an alternate PoV, but that it also picked up right where book 1 left off.