Time Travel discussion
General Time Travel Discussion
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Your opinion on a possible time travel paradox
Mod
Piero & John, how about this:You see your cell phone in a picture but, how so if you have it & no have no memory leaving it there.
Next you go back, hit the guy over the head & get the phone, but only after the picture was taken.
Then you go back but, silly you, you trip while leaving your machine & hit your head & lose your short term memory.
Then, again you see the picture, which was indeed taken & wonder how the phone got there as you have it & have no memory, etc.
This would explain everything.
Too bad though, you're now in a loop.
Just read my books to see how this works.
Welcome to the madhouse, Pierro.Your example is in the time travel paradox category of "where did it come from". In its purest form: a man knocks on my door, tells me he's a future version of me, and gives me detailed instructions on how to build a time machine - which I use to build a time machine, and then take that time machine back to the time, a few years earlier, when I had no time machine and no instructions on how to build one. So I show up at my door with a set of instructions...
So where did the instructions on how to build a time machine really come from?
The multiple worlds interpretation is one way of getting out of this paradox, and you can have all kinds of fun with it.
I won't suggest that you read my novels and stories (as Howard did for his) because I traveled to the future and saw that you read them ...
Paul wrote: 'I traveled to the future and saw that you read them ...' Paul, I could say the same for you.
You, on the other hand, would have to go backward in order to see me reading about Socrates.
I like your example, though.
John wrote: "Great question. The problem seems to be the photograph. ..."this is a very good idea, John! :)
Howard wrote: "Piero & John, how about this:......"
wow, also this is intriguing.... in particular, the loop.. I'll make sure to read your books, Howard :)
Paul wrote: "Welcome to the madhouse, Pierro.."
Thanks, also this is great :) but now I am so curious to read your book :))))
Well, dear colleagues of the 'madhouse' .. as I said at the beginning of my post, I am also writing something on our dear time travel theme...If I will use one of your hints, I will include your names in the ackolewdgments.. can I?
The movie Somewhere in Time has a similar time loop.In the present day, an elderly woman gifts the young man a watch.
The young man goes into the past to meet the younger version of the woman, and gifts her the same watch.
So, where did the watch come from? Who created it?
Mod
Sure. Happy to help.
Mod
- A group of scientists discover a photograph which shows an item that “appears” to be a cell phone.
- They decide to send someone pack in time to investigate, but he discovers that what they thought was a cell phone was actually an item that fits within the time period but looks eerily similar to a cell phone (i.e. a decorative box, an experimental walkie-talkie, a child’s toy, etc.)
- While in the past, the time traveler accidently drops his actual cell phone and returns to a very different future.
- Does he go back and try to retrieve the cell phone? In doing so, does he risk altering the future even further?
I realize the "item-that-looks-like-a-cell-phone-but-isn't" approach may not be the best, but as you suggested, it could be some other form of technology like a computer, a digital camera, or maybe even a handheld video gaming device.
In my opinion as a humble reader, I don't think it is always neccessary to answer the question, but leaving the reader to fill in their own possible solutions can be facinating. Raising the question which came first the chicken or the egg, can be just as satisfying --creating the "my head is hurting thinking about it" experience for the reader is half the fun of reading time travel books.
Thanks John,actually I was going exaclty in that direction. However, I stopped because I got into even bigger problems, since I have already built the story in a way that the time traveler, following the basic rules of time travel, does not take with him into the past any object of his own time :) (you'll perhaps remember my 3 laws of time travel I have posted some weeks ago in another thread :) ).
However, I am solving this problem introducing a 'villain' who brings the damn object into the past ;)
Mod
Heather wrote: "In my opinion as a humble reader, I don't think it is always neccessary to answer the question, but leaving the reader to fill in their own possible solutions can be facinating. Raising the questi...";)
I always got a kick out of the minor time stream changes that Quantum Leap had in their show, things that were more or less unrelated to the real plot of that episode, as just inside jokes.For example, in one episode, they had a young man on a porch on a farm singing to his pet pig. Sam suggests he change the lyrics from "Piggy, Suey" to "Peggy Sue". And you know who the young man turns out to be, right? :)
But, almost always, the "changes" Sam made would end up being how we view history. So the show gave us an insight not to what might be changed, but into how things were before they were changed.
Piero wrote: "Paul wrote: "Welcome to the madhouse, Pierro.."
Thanks, also this is great :) but now I am so curious to read your book :))))"
If your curiosity can't be contained, Piero, you can get The Plot to Save Socrates here on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AMUDJNS/r... and also on iTunes, Barnes and Noble, and Kobo.
Enjoy if you read it. :)
Randy wrote: "But, almost always, the "changes" Sam made [in Quantum Leap] would end up being how we view history. So the show gave us an insight not to what might be changed, but into how things were before they were changed. I'm sort of partial to those kind of time travel consequences, too: our traveler strives mightily to change a bad event in history, only to discover (along with us) at the end that his or her labors only brought that bad event into being. It's the time travel equivalent of O'Henry's perspective that fate is unavoidable.
Howard wrote: "Paul wrote: 'I traveled to the future and saw that you read them ...' Paul, I could say the same for you."
And you'd be right :)
Piero, you need to check out this thread, as about #14 on post touches on your question:http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Howard wrote: "Piero, you need to check out this thread, as about #14 on post touches on your question:tnx :)
Ahh, the madhouse of loops and conundrums. I think at this point in the story, I'd reconsider what results I'm looking for. Is credible scientific theory important, either by current standards or by "discovering" new ones? Do we want readers' heads to be spinning with paradoxes and alternate realties? Heather and Randy correctly point out that's frequently part of the fun. Or are we looking for more straightforward adventure in a TT setting? There's no wrong answer, and it might be a combination of all three, but your answer could tell you how to proceed. I'm leaning toward John's logical explanations as to the origin of the first "cellphone" in the picture, so readers don't get hung up on this one issue. Unless you want them to. :-) No one said Time Travel would be easy! And not all travelers obey the rules. But since you already know where you're going, you can navigate around a minor speed bump to get there. The beauty of writing fiction! Best of luck.
PAUL SHERMAN
One of the most interesting time travel concepts I've seen was in a bad movie -- When Time Expires.An agent is sent back in time. His mission -- put a quarter in a parking meter.
Because if the owner gets the parking ticket, he'll be at the courthouse to contest the ticket on a day when terrorists attack it, and he'll be killed.
Naturally, there are other time travelers trying to prevent him from completing his mission. :)
Hmmm. If it were on NetFlix streaming, I might actually watch it again...
I have to say I found this to be a very interesting and informative thread. I'm glad the original poster is taking the time to work out the kinks in the story. As a reader I often find myself going "huh? That doesn't make any sense" The best time travel stories are the ones with a plausible theory. :) Good luck with your novel!
Randy wrote: "One of the most interesting time travel concepts I've seen was in a bad movie -- When Time Expires."Excellent title and concept - I'm going to try to see that, someday!
Paul wrote: 'Is credible scientific theory important'Paul, I'd agree that this point could go either way but, for me, it's important to be straightforward & have set rules when writing in this genre.
Fantasy is fine & good but in my opinion does not lend itself to a serious Time Travel storyline, more of a tongue & cheek avenue & I try to avoid this approach, seeing it as an easy plot twist, but one not thought provoking or in an earnest vein pertinent to the field.
Making sense of the apparent nonsensical is what it's all about in my Epic Fables but, as I said, that's a creative call made by me & if I’ve succeeded is something to be ultimately judged by the reader.
So far I’ve had good feedback using this method but who knows what the Future may hold?
Well said, Howard, and I’m with you. You’ve made decisions about questions that ultimately each writer and reader will make as to what’s important, my point being that with answers in mind, Piero might better resolve the problem of the cellphone to his satisfaction. I still like John’s suggestions as they could overcome issues that distract readers and I’m guessing they might work within the set rules you mention. (Looking forward to your thoughts in the Epic Fables.)As for myself, while I don’t have “set rules,” I do expect TT to be logical and to make sense at least within the world the author has created, whether it’s transport by scientific, paranormal, or magical means. My own Time Travel novel is of the Historical Fiction subgenre, one which I think is capable of addressing issues as serious as any, and hopefully being just as enjoyable. I was such a stickler for accuracy with settings and persons-of-the-past, that I may have time traveled myself. (Or not.) I’m back in any case. For now.
Paul, don't get me wrong, any author is free to 'set his own rules' & I'm not saying that they should be the same for everyone, quite the opposite.What I meant was that my rules, while bending the bounds of the known universe, do so in a believable & hopefully entertaining fashion.
Others are free to do otherwise, that's perfectly fine, but for me the more fanciful Time Travel tales are just not serious & so I don’t go there, even if, as I’ve said, it’s an easy thing to do.
As to true Historical figures, they figure heavily in my latest Epic Fable & as Tej’s review states, research is indeed the key.
In my case, I just went back & talked to them, no problem.
As important as being clear with the rules in time travel, when you're dealing with historical figures you also need to get the known facts right. Anything less can damage the reader's willing suspension of disbelief.
Paul & I feel like I'm in a loop since you're both Paul wrote: 'when you're dealing with historical figures'Speaking of which, how's the new one coming, you know the sequel?
Hurry up or I'll be suspended.
And I don't mean in the Elastic Limit.
I have about 2 chapters left - but they're long.
One of the Pauls said: 'but'And you've a cover & back blurb written, etc.?
Just wondering.
Then carry on, my brother.I'm suspended.
Piero wrote: "Dear all time-travel lovers,I don't know if I am posting in the right section of the forum, but I'd like to ask your opinion, as well as your help, on the following paradox:
- in our present, some..."
I remember a similar thing in Fallen Dragon (Peter Hamilton) The main character was helped by himself to escape from a planet with a tool he acquired later. It was not very ok.
I did not read all the answers but a "confusion" can help. The object it is not what they initially thought.
Coming in late, sorry, but still want to contribute. I'm a reader, and I agree with Heather that it's ok to leave me wondering exactly how it worked out. But you as the writer have to have an idea, so that you can be internally consistent, as Paul implied. Once you've set up your system, make sure that everything fits into it.
Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "But you as the writer have to have an idea, so that you can be internally consistent, as Paul implied. Once you've set up your system, make sure that everything fits into it. ..."Hi, Cheryl. Yes, that is what I implied -- you just said it better! :-) Thanks. PAUL
Thanks to all again :)Well, I finalized the story... and I actually left a bit of 'confusion' about the object... let's see.
It is just a short story to be included in a collection, but it is no excluded that from it I'll make a longer novel later on... in which case I will have time to change something :)
Mod
The first thing that springs to my mind regards your concept Pierre is a time travel movie called Millenium starring Kris Kristofferson. That scenario is exactly what plays out. I gave a review of it in the movie section but you might like to check it out on Netflix. Its quite dated but the story is great which might give some inspiration ;)
The thing with "loop" recursion time travel is that if it was a reality, it makes no sense and is like looking at those optical illuision paintings where the waterfall flows downwards from the top to the...top, an impossible waterfall. However, the waterfall painting illusion is entertaining and mesmerising to look at. Similarly the recursive time travel loop is equally nonsensical but highly entertaining as a piece of fiction.
Of course Piero, this was exactly your dillemma in the narrative. So glad you are looking at that "problem" that most other authors ignore!
SO well done on your writing, I look forward to your publishing and reading your short story and your solution to the "problem" ;)
But I think the best adfvice I can extract from the wisdom of our esteemed authors on this thread, is set your rules and decide what is your emphasis on the story. Eg. the time travel loop serving as a tool to drive a humane narrative (in this case you do not need to be so hardcore with your time travel mechanics). Or a hardcore time travel story emphasise on time travel, in which case you would need to be meticulous on the time travel mechanics. Its all about your choice of narrative emphasis, character journey, human relationships, the time travel effects on the protagonists, or even an emphasis of the universe as a character etc.
This was a very enjoyable thread to read guys.
Tnx Tej ! :)And, well, I admit I did not know that movie, I will check it out (another time travel paradox: did its author copied from me - or from this forum -, travelling in the future and reading my story - or these posts? Or I will watch the movie today and...? Hmm... I am stuck again.... these time travel themes are the hardest ones!) :-)))))))
Tej wrote: "The thing with "loop" recursion time travel is that if it was a reality, it makes no sense and is like looking at those optical illusion paintings where the waterfall flows downwards from the top to the...top, an impossible waterfall. However, the waterfall painting illusion is entertaining and mesmerizing to look at. Similarly the recursive time travel loop is equally nonsensical but highly entertaining as a piece of fiction."Brilliant analogy, Tej. It may require some quiet time and a glass of better wine later in the day so I can ponder and enjoy it further. Now let's see, where did I put my old copy of Nahin's "Science of Plausible Time Travel"? Great stuff.
Don't see Millennium on Netflix here, but US Amazon has it for about $10. It's on my Wishlist. Thanks!
PAUL
Found it! Tried alternate spellings and Netflix likes this one: Millennium. It's available for "instant" viewing.
Millennium is excellent, notwithstanding the alternate spellings.
Mod
"....This time, Millenium starring Kris Kristofferson and Cheryl Ladd. Its mentioned by Renegada early in this thread and I am glad to see it was placed in the GOOD category.
Its a low quality production and being made in the 80s, there is cheese and cheapo effects. However, the story is excellent and the 2 leads are charismatic enough to rise above the mediocre directing and dialogue.
The story here deserves a modern remake with better direction...if only? JJ Abrams, are you reading this? You interested?
I'll give it a 6.5/10. "
Tej wrote: "Dont buy the movie, Paul. Watch it on the Netflix. Its not a great film, ok but it is a great story and the film has plenty of charm to overcome its obvious low budget and its very 80s feel. I'..."Thanks, Tej. It's in my Netflix queue, ready for streaming.
Piero wrote: "Dear all time-travel lovers,I don't know if I am posting in the right section of the forum, but I'd like to ask your opinion, as well as your help, on the following paradox:
- in our present, some..."
I see it as a continuous loop. Look at the movie Terminator 2 for example. John Connor is in the present, but his mother slept with a man from the future to conceive him. So, in the future, his father went back in time to meet his mother. In the far future, John meets his father (before his father slept with his mother). Time travel by humans in an of itself doesn't seem to trigger a change in history/future. The outcome is always up for grabs.
I think you can weave it into your story however you need it to resolve. Would the object left in the past change the future, or is it the actions of human beings that change the future?
E.B. wrote: "Piero wrote: "Dear all time-travel lovers,I don't know if I am posting in the right section of the forum, but I'd like to ask your opinion, as well as your help, on the following paradox:
- in our..."
Tnx EB :)
yes, the object changes the curse of events and so the future, but I managed to add something to the plot to confuse ideas even more :))) which is not bad as I had imagined at first...
anyhow, hope to have the short story published soon in my first collection :)
I will keep you updated
(this post has been very interesting and useful) :)
EB wrote:'I think you can weave it into your story however you need it to resolve'EB, Science Fiction is fiction & I agree any view is fine as long as it makes sense, plausable as opposed to believable, in terms of the story.
You go Girl
Time Travel
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The Guns of Napoleon (other topics)
I don't know if I am posting in the right section of the forum, but I'd like to ask your opinion, as well as your help, on the following paradox:
- in our present, someone finds a picture of a century ago where an 'impossible' object is visible (for example, a smartphone, a computer, etc.)
- an organization manages to send into the past his agent, in order to investigate the situation
- it is the agent, eventually, who 'forget' the object (for example, his smartphone)
- due to that, the course of events is altered (for example, someone finds the object and with the help of something contained in it can change the sorts of something, and thus significantly alter the future)
- finally, we see that 'our' present has changed (totally different society, as consequence of a major change in the past).
Well, I am currently writing a short story based on this scheme (I cannot give more details at the moment), but I am stuck with this problem: if we already saw, at the beginning of the story, the object in the photo, it means that it had already happened i.e. our man had already forgotten it in the past... therefore the 'present' should have been already different. Hmmm... it can't be different only after he travels back in time.
I don't know if I explained my ideas clearly enough :)
Do you have any suggestion on how to avoid this and rendere the story more plausible?
For istance, I thought about starting the story with the 'different/alternative' present... then the agent forget the object and we discover that it was him who changed history from what we do know today....