George R.R. Martin Discussion

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

Here you can discuss George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series.

[Lannister]

Jaime, jaime, Jaime, Jaime!!
:P

I suppose if anyone wants to have a serious discussion, I could join in!

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I still need to read books 4 and 5. I should get to them in the not far future.

[Lannister]

They're not as good as the first three, though the final third of Book Five really picks up, and I think Book Six is going to be back on form. But it's a bit of a slog to get through 4 & most of 5.

[Anna]

I really enjoyed book 1, though I felt I needed a bit of a break when I finished. The pace is pretty full on all the way through.
I was also in mourning for Ned...Sigh. That GRRMArtin is a heartless bugger! Have consoled myself with series 1 DVD-which to my surprise was pretty good. May try to hold off on book 2 till Christmas to avoid obsessive reading.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I've heard that, Lannister, but I shall persevere! Mostly, because I need to see some people get some payback whenever that finally happens.

[Ela]

I am bascially in love with the direwolves, I think GRRMartin presents a perfectly resonable argument as to why direwolves are acceptable pets :D
And since I love the wolves, I REALLY want to slap Cersei, grrrrr!!

[Lannister]

Everyone wants to slap Cersei. Except the people who want to strangle her. And the ones who want to disembowel her etc. etc. :)

I'm not sure if there's a single person who actually likes Cersei as a character, though she can be fun to read. I suspect she's a bit insane to be honest. Like actual, clinical insanity.

[Anna]

bagsie poison...
There are lots of characters in GoT who seem to cross into insanity...Joffrey, Viserys, Lysa Arryn, and her totally mental son Robin.
What was it that Ned Stark in the first episode? - Bran asked about the deserter who said he saw the nasty ice demons - 'Was he lying then?' and Ned replies something like 'I daresay it was true to him'.
...A bit like the 'play' on reality and insanity in Hamlet perhaps...

[Lannister]

Ned's in denial about the existence of The Others though. The Night Watch deserter guy really did see them, and yeah, I think the experience left him a bit unhinged.

The Others are a very interesting subject!

BTW has anyone read GRRM's Fevre Dreams? I'm ashamed to say that I haven't got round to it yet, and it is a vampire book (though not UF). There's another forum I visit where they talked about it and it seems to be quite a decent book.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I might have to check that out, Lannister.

[Sarah ♥ dog crazy ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix]

It sounds interesting.

[Arushi]

That does sound interesting and I will go to it, eventually :)

Meanwhile... John!!! I sound like a child molestor... but I don't like want him... he's just my favorite!!!!

[Lannister]

Jon is a fan favourite with a lot of people. I'm a bit blah about him to be honest. Jaime, Tyrion and Arya are my personal favs.

Did you ever go back to Dance with Dragons, Arushi? It really picks up towards the end and finishes on a major high!

Also, following on from the discussion just above this one, I bit the bullet and bought Fevre Dream, and it's now officially in my large TBR pile. I'm thinking maybe over Xmas I might start it. Maybe.

[Eyehavenofilter]

I love this thread, thnks all, for starting this one. I've read them all twice, mainly because I rushed through them the first time, having just discovered them this year i was like a kid in a candy store. It took awhile to get into the POV style of the writing. But when I re-read them I really began to appreciate the complexities of each character. I re-read favorite parts many times because they are so well written.

[Arushi]

@Lannister - That makes me feel better. No I have to go back to the book. I plan to do it sometime soon.. just dunno when. I have lots of books waiting for me to get out of my slump.

But you saying that it finishes on a high does motivate me some!

[Lannister]

Ada-Lee, the first time I read the books, I found the switching POV exasperating, as I'd want to continue reading from a favourite character's viewpoint. But you do get used to it, and it's not so bad second time round. I never cheated and skipped ahead to that character's next chapter either!!

Arushi, I think reading all of Feast and half of Dance is a loooong slog, especially after the high of Storm. But the end of Dance gives me high hopes for the next book in the series. I think GRRM has shuffled his characters around to where he needs them to be and we can move on with the story in the next book. At least, that's what I'm telling myself anyway LOL! The ending of Dance is ... surprising! I can't wait to hear your reaction. :)

There's a list floating about the web about a combined reading order for Feast/Dance and I'm going to try it whenever I reread. It puts the events of the two books into chronological order (since the timelines overlap so much) and apparently it makes an interesting read, though you need to keep switching between books.

[Zeenat]

Just started reading Game of Thrones :) So far I like some of the kids, Tyrion, and everyone else can take a flying leap. LOL!

[Arushi]

hahaha just wait :)
I love the wolves!

[Maggie]

Now here is an author that does not write for the fans. @ first I thought he was a heartless bastard. Now I think Valar Morgulis!!

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

^5 Maggie

[Eyehavenofilter]

Zeenat wrote: "Just started reading Game of Thrones :) So far I like some of the kids, Tyrion, and everyone else can take a flying leap. LOL!"

Lannister wrote: "They're not as good as the first three, though the final third of Book Five really picks up, and I think Book Six is going to be back on form. But it's a bit of a slog to get through 4 & most of 5."

Slog is right.... But DWD makes it worthwhile, don't you think?
Z you will change your mind.. Hopefully.

[Zeenat]

I picked some good words... "flying leap". Eeesh.

I suppose I like Ned. Kinda. Sorta. I'm trying not to fall for any characters since everyone says all the ones you like end up dead. LOL

[Arushi]

Zeenat wrote: "I picked some good words... "flying leap". Eeesh.

I suppose I like Ned. Kinda. Sorta. I'm trying not to fall for any characters since everyone says all the ones you like end up dead. LOL"

Good plan. Not gonna work. The characters are awesome. GRRM shows no mercy!

[Lannister]

Zeenat wrote: "Just started reading Game of Thrones :) So far I like some of the kids, Tyrion, and everyone else can take a flying leap. LOL!"

Blasphemy!!! ;)

I hardly know a single person that doesn't like Tyrion in the early books. They may not agree with everything he does, but he's usually a fan favourite.

Ada-Lee/ eyehavenofilter wrote: "Slog is right.... But DWD makes it worthwhile, don't you think?
Z you will change your mind.. Hopefully. "

I think the first half of Dance is on the same level as Feast but it gets really good towards the end and I do think the final parts are as exciting as anything that happened in Storm. That's why I'm not despairing over where the series is going. GRRM has had his mid-series slump and hopefully can get things moving again in Book Six. Which is probably not going to be out for another two years yet.

[Zeenat]

I love the story... but their world makes me so angry! Sad to know that some people are still like that these days...

[Lannister]

I hate to say this ... but it only gets worse! There are a few scenes in the books that would almost make you despair.

So, you said you liked some of Ned's children? Any favourites? Do you prefer Sansa or Arya?

[Zeenat]

so far I love all of them except for Sansa. I think Arya and Jon are my favorites.

[Lannister]

I didn't like Sansa early on either. In fact, I wanted to strangle her numerous times! Arya is one of my favs too.

[Maggie]

I did not like Tyrion until late in the 1st book.
All the n00bs in Feast *really* upset me. Sansa's ok. Just not too smart...

[Lannister]

I liked Tyrion from the very start. He definitely was my first favourite character. Agree about the new POVs in Feast. It was hard to give a damn about them.

On Sansa, (view spoiler)[sometimes I feel really judgemental when I dismiss her, as she was a truly innocent young girl encouraged through her upbringing to believe that the world was like her songs. So, although I wanted to slap her for some of her decisions in AGoT, she really paid later on and it's hard to continue to hold it against her. However in the later books I think Sansa's really becoming a player and I want to see her put one over Littlefinger. (hide spoiler)]

[Arushi]

Lannister wrote: "I liked Tyrion from the very start. He definitely was my first favourite character. Agree about the new POVs in Feast. It was hard to give a damn about them.

On Sansa, [spoilers removed]"

Yep, Yep and Yep!

I liked Tyrion. Heck, I even liked Jaime, though liked to hate him might be more accurate. It was only later that I really liked him.

As far as Sansa is concerned, I blame Cat. (view spoiler)[ She knew the sort of world they lived in and even if the wars were over she should have known better than to raise such a fool. She never sees this, not even when Sansa is mooning over Joffery.

Everyone can see he is a pompous fool, but not Sansa. And Cat does not sit her down and give her a talk. Ned tries, but by then, its too late. Sansa cares more about her fairy-tale ending then her family.

The way Cat is always critical of Arya had a lot to do with this. So while I do dislike Sansa, I don't completely blame her.

I think Littlefinger's tutelage is much more suited to her than her mother's or even her father's. I really think she will be a player soon. Littlefinger was predicting a war of the Queens. He even mentioned how many Queens but I forget the number. (hide spoiler)]

[Lannister]

On Jaime, (view spoiler)[GRRM does this deliberately, and I think it's awesome. He sets up Jaime as a complete bastard and you're supposed to hate him. But, then you get to Storm and you're inside Jaime's head and you learn all about the kingslaying and you see how he defends Brienne, and suddenly it becomes harder to dislike him. He has a moral code but it's just not obvious at the outset. And, OK, his code is a little different from everyone else's, but it's there LOL! (hide spoiler)]

Sansa, (view spoiler)[I agree that her upbringing definitely had a lot to do with it, but I also think part of it is just who Sansa is. No doubt Cat tried to instil the same nonsense into Arya, but she resisted. Sansa wanted to be the princess, as this was the probably the ultimate achievement for a woman in Westeros society (no interesting careers are on offer for noble women in this world. A good marriage and lots of sons is the best you can hope for.) Sansa lapped up the stories about honourable knights and truly believed it. As you say, it's insane that Cat wouldn't educate her on the way the world really is. Cat isn't stupid and I can't entirely understand her need to shelter Sansa like this. Although she was really young by our standards, 12 isn't so young in Westeros. It's like telling your 16yr old daughter that, yes, Santa Claus really does exist!

But, to give Sansa credit, she survived Kings Landing and Joffrey, and I don't think Arya would have, in the same position. I can't wait to see what happens to her in the future! (hide spoiler)]

[Arushi]

Lannister wrote: "On Jaime, [spoilers removed]

Sansa,[spoilers removed]"

Have to agree with you on Jaime. He has awesome character development. Almost everyone does, but his personality is brought out beautifully. I do love him now, even more then Tyrion. Considering I am stuck in Dance, especially more than Tyrion.

Abt Sansa, (view spoiler)[ I think that was a screw up on everyone's part. She is a fool who betrays her father and lives in songs. Her upbringing and personality both do have a lot to do with it, but I still cannot really like her. Although I think she is more like the common women shown in that world, compared to Arya or even Cersei.

I think maybe Cat just wanted better for her daughters, but in all honesty, she should have known better. Does she not know how her sister-in-law died? What started the war? Its pretty clear. So if that girl, inspite of being a Stark, was not safe. Then why would these be safe? Because of the new King? That would make everything even more unstable. It is stupid. Ned prepares his sons well. Mostly. Rob is not a fool and Jon too turns out well. So... Cat's actions are either dumb, misogynistic, or simply short-sighted. I haven't decided what would annoy me more.

Sansa is slowly coming into her own now. I am hoping she has learnt from her mistakes.

I dunno if Arya would have survived Joffrey and King's Landing or not. I think she would have fought until Joffrey either locked her up or killed her. And probably to change that, Cersei or Tyrion would have locked her up instead. She's not good at that bending thing. Sansa chooses to bide her time in the hope that someone will rescue her.
(hide spoiler)]

[Zeenat]

Okay, I'm only half way through the first book, so bear that in mind with my thoughts LOL

Sansa, I blame Cat and society in general. I really dislike Cat actually, although I like her more in the scenes with tyrion and crazy Lysa.

I don't hate Jaime. I should, but I don't. I really disliked when he pushed Bran, but when he killed all of Ned's people I kinda thought "well that's what he gets for being naive". LOL I don't not like Ned, I like him, but he's so... dumb. LOL He is a really good father though.

I think so far, Ned and/or Cat is gonna die. If Ned dies, then I think the family will be ostracized and lose all their power. If it's Cat, then Ned will become all hard and evil... he might be more fun then.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

I really disliked Cat, too. She pissed me off. I liked her a bit better later on, though.

Ned definitely sucks at all the political secrecy stuff. He's naive about how devious people are.

[Lannister]

Ned is an honourable fool. You don't realise it at the very start of the book. He seems so decent and likeable but once he leaves Winterfell, you slowly start to realise just how out of his depth he is. Maybe we shouldn't entirely blame Cat for Sansa's innocence when her father, who should really know better, seems equally clueless about political machinations. I think Cat is the smart one in the family. Even though I sometimes dislike her actions.

Zeenat, yay for liking Jaime! Or, at least, for not not liking him LOL! I've convinced everyone in the group to look at Marlowe in a new way, now I'm moving on to Jaime Lannister LMAO!

[Zeenat]

He's bad, he's evil, I get it. But he's smart, and is nice to tyrion. and one can just blame all of his actions on his lover/sister, cersei. Who is just awful, evil, gross.

[Maggie]

This is what I would like from Sansa for the next 2 books: (view spoiler)[ I'd *really* enjoy seeing her go bugfuck & offing LF & then start looking a lot like Ophelia. & since it's GRRM, she's clearly gotta die too. (hide spoiler)]

Also, based on how this world feels to me, I do not think Ned had any hand in raising Sansa. I think he had some hand in Arya only cos she is a tomboy.

[Lannister]

Cersei is awful, and yet, I wouldn't blame her for everything Jaime does. Jaime's rash and impulsive and tends to react, rather than thinking things through. But he knows that some of his actions are wrong and doesn't sugarcoat or try to blame anyone else.

I think Cersei is insane sometimes. Actual, certifiable insanity.

[Zeenat]

I blame her for him being crazy in general. Maybe if he had a sweet sister/lover he wouldn't be that impulsive. lol

[Lannister]

Maggie (view spoiler)[I think Sansa is definitely going to outwit Littlefinger at some point down the line, because otherwise it'll seem like all this build-up has been for nothing. We've seen her grow from being a naive innocent to having the makings of a political player, and I think this growth has to have a culmination - like chucking LF out the moon door!

Surprisingly enough, I see Sansa surviving the series. I can see her ruling somewhere at the end, whether in Kings Landing or in the North I don't know. I think Arya, on the other hand, has a higher chance of dying.

And, much as it pains me to say it, I think my beloved Jaime is toast. But, he's the Valonqar and he's going to kill Cersei, I'm sure of it!! :D
(hide spoiler)]

[Maggie]

I'm completely sure of that as well. But, I do wonder (view spoiler)[ if Breanne is gonna have anything to do w/ it. ARRRGGGHHH! We did NOT get enough closure on what happened to her in Dance!! But, idk about Sansa. I agree there would be so much build up for nothing but, I don't see her catching on as everyone else does. Oh man. I will be pissed all over again if Arya bites the dust!! But, tbh I can't really understand where her story is going anyways. At least she hasn't given up Needle. :D
(hide spoiler)]

[Arushi]

Ned (view spoiler)[ He is naive. It is so clear and so MANY people warn him but he just does not see it. It is quite sad really. I dunno how much he screwed his kids up. They don't seem to have the same hangups, though they do have a strong moral compass. Not Robb and not Jon. Definitely not Arya.
I do like Ned, but I want to shake some sense into him more. (hide spoiler)]

Cat (view spoiler)[ I am not sure if I still like her. I don't dislike her, but liking her is hard. I know she's one of the reasons Sansa is so screwed up. Plus she also messed up with Jon. But my dislike is there, especially because I stopped Dance when Brienne is about to be hanged on Cat's orders. (hide spoiler)]

Sansa (view spoiler)[ I still say that she will be one of the Queens in the coming war. Littlefinger said there would be a War of the Queens and I believe him. It does make sense for her to come into her own by killing LH but it would make more sense to keep him around. Because honestly, he might play a huge part in getting back Winterfell.
But Sansa does seem like she will be one hell of a player in the Game. (hide spoiler)]

Arya (view spoiler)[ I somehow think she will end up becoming an assassin for her family. She cannot give them up and so she'll just join them. Eventually. Jon would probably be delighted. He does love her the most. (hide spoiler)]

All of Ned's children (view spoiler)[ are taking different paths. I think it's also a show of how circumstances can screw with people. I mean, Jon was supposed to be the worst off, yet as of right now, he's in the best possible place. Well, mostly. (hide spoiler)]

[Arushi]

Zeenat wrote: "I blame her for him being crazy in general. Maybe if he had a sweet sister/lover he wouldn't be that impulsive. lol"

Maybe. But the thing with Jaime is, that he is too complex for only one thing to be the reason for it all. You'll see later when we get to his parts.

Cersei though is certifiable and honestly, I can agree that if she was not there, Jaime would not be in half the messes he gets into.

@Lannister - (view spoiler)[ I am also damned sure that Jaime is the Valonqar. I wanna see/read Cersei's face when she realizes that. After all, she destroyed Tyrion for this, but she had the wrong brother all along.
(hide spoiler)]

[Zeenat]

I'm on chapter 48 (it's a jon chapter).

So Ned is stupid. 1) he had to go tell ms. snobby bitchy queen that he knows? and that he's gonna say something to Robert?

2) Littlefinger's plan on taking over Joff's upbringing... I thought of that, and agreed when I read it. but of course Ned gets all honorable and refuses. Peyter may be slime, but he's smart slime.

Ned's gonna die. I know it.

Question... Did Dany's brother die at the end of that chapter? I couldn't tell...

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

That's why Ned is naive. He thinks everyone will be as honorable as he is. I don't know why, but he does.

And yes, that fool is dead.

[Lannister]

I thought that scene where Ned spills his guts to Cersei was just nuts! I get that Ned didn't like the idea of being responsible for the deaths of children, but telling Cersei is crazy.

[Mello ❣ Illium ✮Harry✮ ☀Myrnin☀ Torin]

Incredibly crazy. He set himself up.

[Zeenat]

How does someone in his position and standing get to be so stupid? I mean I get it for trying to do the right thing, but be smart about it at least!