The Sword and Laser discussion
This topic is about
Cloud Atlas
2012 Reads
>
CA: Values Dissonance
date
newest »
newest »
message 1:
by
George
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Oct 06, 2012 07:34AM
So, I just started Cloud Atlas, and while part of me loves him mimicking an early 1800s writing style in the first part, I find myself feeling uncomfortable with the ideas expressed there about race and religion. I know that the characters are just echoing prevailing views of the time, but it still make for a slightly tense read. Does anyone else have this problem? How do you deal with values dissonance in fiction?
reply
|
flag
I admit to a bit of squirming, then telling myself its ok, it was written in a different time. Then I did a double take as I remembered it was a modern novel aping the style. So good aping, I guess. Racism never goes away it just gets swept under the rug when company comes over.
I remind myself now and then of a cliche that became a cliche because it's so important and true; those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. It's good to be exposed to those sorts of ideas, and feel how uncomfortable they are.
Since I don't like things being swept under the rug in literature as if the world was perfect, I understand when an author is trying to express the thinking of the individuals. Unless you've been in a cocoon, you know that real people can be stranger and more cruel than expressed in fiction. I recently reread The Sound and the Fury and enjoyed emotionally responding to the variety of attitudes portrayed. Faulkner had no hesitation showing how a caustic mind thinks. Same way with Nabakov's Lolita, in his portraying of a pedophile's self-delusion.
I want to make it clear that I'm not interested in having certain ideas "swept under a rug", and I appreciate giving characters in a certain historical period or even fictional cultures views that reflect the culture they came from. It's just that while I can separate that intellectually, I still have an emotional reaction.Some of it may have to do with the character. I can set aside things that Tyrion Lannister says about rape and race as cultural context because he's awesome in other ways. But Adam Ewing hasn't shown me anything I like yet -- he comes off as rather pompous and puritancial (though of course, some of the "pompousness" may come from the flowery 19th century writing style).
I take that Adam Ewing is a product of his culture, and is developing his character as he goes along. Like all of us, he fails in some areas and succeeds in some in his navigation through his experiences.
In a story, there's always going to be characters you have strong emotional reaction to, either positive or negative. I like it when a character has a strong element of gray. You may not like him in some ways, but some of his actions have redeeming value. In real life, people are constantly surprising me with their hidden sides, positive or negative, regardless of the mantel they like to show to the world.
George wrote: "So, I just started Cloud Atlas, and while part of me loves him mimicking an early 1800s writing style in the first part, I find myself feeling uncomfortable with the ideas expressed there about rac..."Can't wait to hear your thoughts about this when you get to the second half of his story at the end.
Jim wrote: "Can't wait to hear your thoughts about this when you get to the second half of his story at the end."Well, if it's that interesting, then I'll be sure to finish and check back in on this thread. I was thinking that there might be more in the second part.
In terms of literary quality the only bad characters are the poorly written ones: they are simple and predictable. By making villains interesting the novelist strengthens and expands the circle of our compassion by making us think about the inner lives of difficult people. And that's a great value.
George wrote: "Jim wrote: "Can't wait to hear your thoughts about this when you get to the second half of his story at the end."Well, if it's that interesting, then I'll be sure to finish and check back in on t..."
The stories are split on each side of Sloosha's Crossin', which is the only unsplit one. So you'll get the second half of the Ewing story as the last part, since it was at the beginning of the book.
So you can't lem it, George, because you'll be missing out on Ewing's character development. :o)
I'm sure it goes into the themes of the novel...
I loved Sloosha's crossing for the language - and Ewing's story comes second for the same reason. As for the blatant racism in the first story, Mitchell was definitely taking the piss out of the superior Western attitudes of the time - and I'm not so sure we've come so far since then. Racism may have become unfashionable to air in media, but it flows pretty free at times in the lunch room.
I like the fact that I find it uncomfortable, it reminds me we have come a long way in a short time.
I've become addicted to feeling uncomfortable, like walking in a forest not knowing where I'm going, when I read a novel.
I like books where I have that gut reaction- positive or negative - at least the author is making me feel! And at least here, the characters have a wide range of opinions.
No I don't have a problem about the depiction of racism in literature. I am just reminded that even just a generation ago that it was much worse than it is currently . Admittedly we will never entirely get rid of bigotry but I see it as a positive that we are moving in the right direction.
George wrote: "So, I just started Cloud Atlas, and while part of me loves him mimicking an early 1800s writing style in the first part, I find myself feeling uncomfortable with the ideas expressed there about race and religion."I was in the same boat with you on this, except for me it was more than a bit. I almost lemmed this book due to the first two narrators opinions.
It's far more difficult for me to get through stories where you know the author feels that way. Authors like Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, Zane Grey, or even Joel Chandler Harris can be jarring to read, but over time I've learned I can acknowledge their bias' and enjoy the stories.I do have to agree if not for the ending, I would have found the story much more distasteful. Also, completely out of theme with the rest of the book.
Stick with it, Julia. Yes, there are people with odious opinions. That's an unfortunate part of humanity. The second half of the stories show some character's growth, and after reading the whole thing, you'll see some of these themes reflect off each other through the stories leading to the idea that just as there can be growth in these characters, there MIGHT be growth in humanity as well.
I thought I'd report back in, I finished the first part of Adam Ewing's story and I can see where the character development is leading. Suffice it to say I am interested to see where this ends up going. Now to the second part.
I love the discomfort - it makes the story real, and sets up a great opening for discussion. Most importantly, it reminds us not to glamorize any period of history.
Jim wrote: "Can't wait to hear your thoughts about this when you get to the second half of his story at the end. "My thoughts exactly.
Jim wrote: "Stick with it, Julia. Yes, there are people with odious opinions. That's an unfortunate part of humanity. The second half of the stories show some character's growth, and after reading the whole ..."As I said I almost lemmed it, as in past tense. I actually finished it last night. Not my favorite book, but an interesting read.
BTW if anyone found this kind of past life story telling fascinating and like alternate histories you might want to try The Years of Rice and Salt, I honestly found it more engaging than this book.
I've only finished the first Ewing chapter so far, but I like that the characters are so three-dimensional. Some, like the doctor, have personal beliefs that make me uncomfortable (especially on the subject of race relations). However, I like that Mitchell shows us the grey areas -- a man can be racist and yet a good healer. It makes the characters more real to me and makes the book even more compelling.
I think that it's got to be taken like any work of fiction - ie. you need to remember that it's not actually real and may or may not be an accurate depiction of the author's viewpoints.If, however, I knew that the thoughts expressed in the chapter with regards to race were in fact an accurate representation of Mitchell's views, i would probably have difficulty with it because as far as I'm concerned there's no excuse for it in the 21st century.
The Ewing story is set in the mid 19th century. It would be historically inaccurate if the Europeans and the white Americans and New Zealanders weren't racist. The absence of racism in this story would distract me because it would be completely false.My above comment should not be construed to mean that I would ever defend racism itself but the whitewashing and ignoring of predominant cultural attitudes about race in historical fiction would not only be distractingly historically inaccurate but downright offensive.
Characters that are not wholly good but only relatively good in their circumstances are more interesting heroes because they are more realistic.
Chaz wrote: "The Ewing story is set in the mid 19th century. It would be historically inaccurate if the Europeans and the white Americans and New Zealanders weren't racist. The absence of racism in this story w..."I totally agree with you there Chaz, but my gut reactions do not obey logic or appreciate the historical difference. And, of course, a big part of my discomfort, I've discovered, is that racist statements pervaded the the entire story. Now that I've gotten to the switch point, I think I know why that is the case, though: Ewing's story is about race. As I said before, I am very much looking forward to the resolution.
I think one or two people here also mentioned that they had similar problems reading the second story, but I haven't really. The second POV character also has horribly caustic views, but my feelings are softened a bit by the fact that he is fairly amusing even when putting down anyone and everyone. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone like that (I have met people with his "snooty artist" personality -- they aren't fun to be around), but I can genuinely enjoy his letters.
Jonathon wrote: "I think that it's got to be taken like any work of fiction - ie. you need to remember that it's not actually real and may or may not be an accurate depiction of the author's viewpoints.If, howeve..."
I agree, I'm not usually made uncomfortable by characters' views if it's clear the author's views are different and he's just making a point and/or being realistic in terms of time and culture that the writing is set in. It's like when a fuss is made about the n-word in Huckleberry Finn being racist when the whole book is really pointing out that racism is idiotic. I'm not for Bowdlerisation.
I've gotten past the turn and am in the second half of the Frobisher story and I think a couple of the things that tie most of the stories together is slavery/imprisonment and/or prejudice. It seems clear to me that the author is not himself racist or trying to defend it, thus I'm not disturbed, I'm quite enjoying the story/stories.
I thought the first and final stories made an interesting pairing because of this issue. The first has both a racist and imperialist attitude - trying to "civilize the savages." The final has a major them of trying to keep civilization alive in the midst of a slip into becoming "savages." Both have groups coming by ship, with "superior" attitudes and superior technology. But the tone of the story and intentions of the travelers and the POV (from the "civilized" and from the "savage") make interesting contrasts. Neither is simplistically positive or negative, but the contrast is strong enough to be thought-provoking.
I promised I'd check in on this thread after I finished the book. I very much do like how Ewing's character evolved into someone I can now very much get behind. From the beginning he is somewhat redeemable as the not-quite-as-racist character in his story, but, without revealing too much in spoilers ... he turns out to be one of the best in the end.He's still a stodgy old gentleman though. I think my favorite POV character may be a tossup between Timothy Cavendish and Robert Frobisher.
