A Feast for Crows
discussion
What are your thoughts on Sansa Stark?
Michelle wrote: "I have to remind myself that she really is young and acting like a young, spoiled teenager. As she gets to grow up in a very difficult situation her character is growing and she is becoming very i..."I doubt very much she is Littlefinger's daughter. No way. I think something really bad will happen to her by Littlefinger. I don't like her with him. She's not my favorite character but I don't want anything bad to happen to her because she is a Stark. I hope she will become wiser and maybe be more like her sister Arya.
Michael wrote: "Although in the beginning she was kinda naive I think she will be a major player in the Game of Thrones, certainly under the wings of Littlefinger."I hope she kills Littlefinger in the last book - preferably by throwing him out of a high window, the way he killed Lysa.
Mitali wrote: "Michael wrote: "Although in the beginning she was kinda naive I think she will be a major player in the Game of Thrones, certainly under the wings of Littlefinger."I hope she kills Littlefinger i..."
Lysa had it comming IMO. She's a real b****
Michael wrote: "Lysa had it comming IMO. She's a real b**** "Oh, of course, Lysa was horrible. I just mean it would be poetic justice for Littlefinger to die the same way.
Just to clarify, I like Littlefinger very much in the sense that he's one of the most interesting characters in the series. But he is also completely cold-hearted and evil, and I hope a fitting death is waiting for him in the last book. I think his obsession with Sansa will continue to grow until he pushes her over the edge (figuratively), at which point she will push him over the edge (literally).
Mitali wrote: "Michael wrote: "Lysa had it comming IMO. She's a real b**** "Oh, of course, Lysa was horrible. I just mean it would be poetic justice for Littlefinger to die the same way.
Just to clarify, I lik..."
Nice way to put it... altough even cold and evil, he doesn't deserve to die in my opinion. The world is for the grabs if he plays this right!
Sansa and Arya are arguably my favorite POV characters. I don't find one better than the other, I find them wonderfully different, which is why I find their journeys so fascinating.
Sansa might turn out to be a Cercei in the future
What you mean? Cold, calculated and desillusioned? Slightly mad?
Michael wrote: "What you mean? Cold, calculated and desillusioned? Slightly mad?"yeah. She grew up in fairy tales but lived in nightmare. She has married a man (or a bitchy boy) who doesn't love her and she has no friends or family members to cry onto. Plus, she has to play the Game to survive
I think Sansa's much stronger than we have discovered as yet. And much smarter than we give her credit for.I think she's a whole lot better than Cercei, even though I'm not a great fan of Sansa
hopefully, although I doubt that
Michael wrote: "Sansa might turn out to be a Cercei in the future"That would be interesting.... Arguably, Cercei sees her youth as being much like Sansa's "innocence" or "naivety" depending on how one looks at it.
Her story has developed more interestingly than Arya's, who just walked for all of ASoS. I don't think she has it in her to be as cruel or crazy as Cersei (who I would defend in a different discussion), though I did resent her for a while after the way she treated Tyrion. She really didn't see how lucky she had it. I've been trying to regain my like of her since that treatment.
Well, she's a teen aged girl, who feels that she's done everything right. She doesn't really comprehend how lucky she is, because as she sees it, the world has betrayed her. This is not anything like what she has been raised to expect. Her lack of adaptability is a flaw, but it's not really surprising.I'm not sure that she will parallel Cersei, her life experience has already been vastly different. If anything, I would think she would surpass her. This is a girl whose father was executed as a traitor and who was taken by her betrothed to see his head on a spike. She's been beaten and humiliated in view of the court.
If that doesn't cause her to resort to violence, what is left? Learn the game, or give in. And giving in would be letting "them" win. She's still not ready to do that.
I think those events will make her closer to a Cercei. No doubt that she will learn to play the Game, but note how they treat women that time. What has Sansa to offer? An abandoned kingdom? She'll grew up as an empty slot to be filled by some lord looking for new territories. How will she play then? By doing what Cercei did. Maybe she'll be a little bit different but not far from being a cold hearted bitch... but this might change if she found a new prince charming...
I've been following this Cersei/Sansa thread, but sorry--can't buy it. First of all, their personalities are nothing alike. Sansa is ignorant and foolish, where Cersei is cruel and vindictive. Additionally, their life experiences are completely different. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the OP doesn't like either character--which is understandable, though I've previously given reasons why I think Sansa is redeemable. But this is not a good reason to parallel the characters. I would be very disappointed if Martin took Sansa down Cersei Way.
Cara wrote: "If that doesn't cause her to resort to violence, what is left? Learn the game, or give in. "Learning the game doesn't involve violence - or at least not necessarily, and almost certainly not for Sansa. Violence is Arya's domain. Sansa is going to play a very different game. After all, she's learning from the master: Littlefinger.
Celise wrote: "... though I did resent her for a while after the way she treated Tyrion. She really didn't see how lucky she had it. I've been trying to regain my like of her since that treatment. "
Sansa had no reason to trust Tyrion - and certainly no reason to consider herself lucky. He was a Lannister - a member of the same family that held her prisoner - and proud to be one. Yes, he had been fairly kind to her so far, but was there any guarantee that would last? After all, Cersei had been nice to her when Sansa first came to King's Landing. For all Sansa knew, Tyrion's kindness so far had only been a ruse to get her off her guard, and make her more vulnerable.
Remember that we, the readers, know that Tyrion is genuinely kind. That's because we can see inside his head in his chapters. But Sansa doesn't have that benefit. All she knows is that she shouldn't trust any Lannisters, whether they are nice to her or not - or perhaps, especially when they are nice to her, as they probably have something up their sleeves.
Michael wrote: "I think those events will make her closer to a Cercei. No doubt that she will learn to play the Game, but note how they treat women that time. What has Sansa to offer? An abandoned kingdom? She'll ..."And, in contrast, Cersei would have been seen as an excellent match by any number of suitors. You can argue that being sold into a loveless marriage and the general attitude towards women have warped her, but I don't think that holds up. The majority of women in this world deal with the same things, her situation is not unique.
I don't think Sansa is going to turn into Cersei completely... but it would make sense for her to become more of a mover and shaker in events as a manipulator. Cersei is the product of more than the cultural influence on her gender. There's the relationship with Jaime, which I think we have to acknowledge as pretty significant. She doesn't have a strong female role-model since her mother died in childbirth with Tyrion. Her father is austere in a way that borders on abusive. Sansa had none of those things in the context of her upbringing.However, she has a set of options available to her that are very similar to Cersei's. Sansa is probably not going to run out and pick up a sword like Arya. She's not going to go warg like her little brother Bran. She's most likely not going to even run around like Catelyn. If she's going to start taking control over her own life her options are to do what Cersei did and use her material wealth and physical beauty as her tools.
She may not have the same perfidious, cruel and vengeful agenda as Cersei, but Cersei's methods do seem like her most obvious route to power.
To Gary,you make a valid point.Sansa never was a favorite of mine,certainly not in the first two books and not even until the latter of the third.But I think your right about the "mover and shaker".
Charlton wrote: "To Gary,you make a valid point.Sansa never was a favorite of mine,certainly not in the first two books and not even until the latter of the third.But I think your right about the "mover and shaker"."She's not my favorite character either. For most of the books, she's much more passive that other characters. As such, she contrasts nicely with other characters, but it makes her something of the "straight man" of the series.
Gary wrote: " If she's going to start taking control over her own life her options are to do what Cersei did and use her material wealth and physical beauty as her tools.She may not have the same perfidious, cruel and vengeful agenda as Cersei, but Cersei's methods do seem like her most obvious route to power. "
What material wealth? Sansa has none. As her situation stands right now (at the end of ADwD), she is officially a bastard with no name and no inheritance. If she reveals her real identity, she will be arrested as a kingslayer. She is entirely dependant on Littlefinger's goodwill if she is to have any future at all. IMO, her only way of asserting self control lies in temporarily going along with Littlefinger's plans, learning how to play the game of thrones from him, and finally defeating him at his own game.
Frankly, I see zero similarities between Sansa and Cersei either in personality or situation. I'm not sure why people are so desperate to draw parallels between the two. Cersei has always lived a life of privilege, and even though she is desperate to see herself as a victim, the only thing in life she hasn't had a choice over is having to marry Robert - and even that, she wasn't exactly against it initially (Robert was young, handsome, and a newly crowned king). Everything else that has happened to her is her own doing, good or bad.
I agree with Mitali completely. As the story stands now, Cersei and Sansa are both women who are pretty. Nothing else about their situations or life experience is similar.
I personally love Sansa. At first she was naive, bitchy, and just a little evil with the whole siding with Joffrey thing but now, a girl's gotta do what she's got to do. Sansa has never been Arya, she doesn't function the same way where she can survive on her own, fighting for her life. Sansa is dependent and I don't think there's anything wrong with that in her case. For the person who talked about Sansa being Littlefinger's child, ew on so many levels. Especially because he has a creepy pedophile thing going on.
Littlefinger = pedophile.Exactly what I was thinking.
Mitali wrote: "What material wealth? Sansa has none."She personally has no material wealth, but that's because she's been a hostage for the majority of the story. She's an heir to a noble house and (view spoiler) Why is she a captive at all? Because she represents access to vast estates. She'll have to find her way to that income, probably through a marriage and more than a little political wrangling, but seeing her as poor isn't really accurate. Rather, she's a wealthy person who has been imprisoned in a cage for wealthy people, but that could change very quickly.
Mitali wrote: "Frankly, I see zero similarities between Sansa and Cersei either in personality or situation. I'm not sure why people are so desperate to draw parallels between the two. Cersei has always lived a life of privilege, and even though she is desperate to see herself as a victim, the only thing in life she hasn't had a choice over is having to marry Robert - and even that, she wasn't exactly against it initially (Robert was young, handsome, and a newly crowned king). Everything else that has happened to her is her own doing, good or bad."
Joffrey was young, handsome and a newly crowned king.... He wasn't Robert, but they were both abusive. Sansa manages to escape (or is cast off) from her betrothed, but they were in very similar situations. Isn't that a similarity?
In any case, I'm not saying they have the same personality, but that they have similar routes to power in the game, and their backgrounds aren't as dissimilar as I think you're suggesting. Cersei is a villain of the story, though one who is psychologically comprehensible. That is, she's not a psychopath. The bad things that have happened to her are mostly her choices.
However, couldn't the same be said of Sansa? She consistently betrays her family, she revels in the pageantry of court, but ignores its obvious brutalities, she makes little or no effort to gain allies. She's a victim of her own choices as well.
The comparison, though, is mostly about the methods available to them rather than the particulars of their background.
They're the same methods available to all women of a certain social class. Lollys and Margaery have the same methods open to them as well, but their personalities and how they use the opportunities presented to them makes a difference.I think Cersei places high value on how smart she thinks she is. Cersei seems pretty sure that if she were a man, not only would she be exceptionally intelligent, she'd be a great fighter, too. I don't see this type of arrogance in Sansa at all yet. All she seems sure of right now is that she's beautiful.
I don't know that I agree with assertions about her wealth, either. From the perspective of the crown, her father and brother committed treason. The other Stark children are dead as far as anyone knows. At the very best, Winterfell would be given to her husband, and she'd be there to placate the Northerners. At worst, the crown could absolutely dispossess her and give Winterfell away.
Of course, that all depends on where the crown ends up, as well.
Least favorite female characters: Sansa Stark, Daenerys and Cersei. Sansa is terrible, maybe they cast her differently in the TV series but in the books, she's just whiny and self serving. I can't believe she's a Stark.
Sansa is just the opposite of Arya.She always has been even sofar as despising her younger sister.Sansa never liked living in the North in Winterfell,she always wanted out(to go south where it is pretty).
It's like any other siblings. It's not wrong for Sansa to want and enjoy things Arya doesn't, and vice versa. They haven't had any interaction since the first book. I don't think it's fair to say they hated each other, so much as the girly tween clashed with her tomboy little sister. Just between the first book and the most recent, those girls have been through a lot of crap. Who even knows how they'll relate to each other, if they ever see each other again?
This is true,both girls have been through alot.It wouldn't suprise me if they eventually worked together.Though I don't really see this happening.
I think if any of the Stark kids would just be completely "Screw these people", it'd be Rickon.
I think she's actually brilliant - smart enough to stay alive and well-fed for so long in King's Landing under Cersei and Joffrey's watch. Arya would never have been able to do that.
At least Arya is loyal. Arya just lacks Sansas self restraint but she's smarter, braver, more interesting personality wise and as far as survival goes, Sansa has nothing on her. Sansa's frame of mind is along the lines of "I'm too pretty for this, I'm too proper to be put through this. Life's not fair to me, I could really use a lemon cake right now." She doesn't take any accountability for her actions. She's so superficial it hurts. There's a war going on and all she's worried about is whether her hairnet is on straight. Tyrion is too good for her. Her and Joffrey should have gone down together. She's nothing more than a special snowflake.
My pet theory is that Sansa marries Robert Arryn and Littlefinger maneuvers them to the crown. At the very least I think something big happens with the three of them in book 6.
Rain wrote: "At least Arya is loyal. Arya just lacks Sansas self restraint but she's smarter, braver, more interesting personality wise and as far as survival goes, Sansa has nothing on her. Sansa's frame of mi..."Your view of Sansa seems locked in the first book. She really is very different in the 5th book than she was in the first. If you think she's still the same, then we are reading different books.
I think Sansa has evolved. In the beggining, I didn't like her at all, but I think she's adapting to her circumstances. I think the separation of the remaining Stark is fundamental so, if they ever get back together, the shall be the strongest family of all. Sansa is getting stronger.
She begins as a genuine and perennial victim. Yet evolves, somewhat slowly than 'Dannie,' and I see her rising into her own in the end. Her direwolf's death may yet prove to be a motivator, too. It was obviously dearer to her than first indicated.
With Littlefinger she is finally learning humility.This could be a big plus for her.
Gary wrote: "In any case, I'm not saying they have the same personality, but that they have similar routes to power in the game, and their backgrounds aren't as dissimilar as I think you're suggesting. "I'm not suggesting there are no similarities between Cersei and Sansa. Of course their background is the same: they're both daughters of old, powerful families, who were brought up to believe they would marry advantageously and live a fairy tale life - and both were disappointed in that belief. But that's where the similarities end. Cersei did marry a handsome king, and lived a life that outwardly seemed perfect, i.e. as the wife and mother of kings. Her husband may have been far from perfect, but otherwise she had everything she wanted: beauty, wealth, power, prestige, love (if not from her husband). But she is never satisfied with what she does have, and is always grasping for more. and during the course of ASoIaF, she loses some of these things.
Sansa, on the other hand, wants to live as a fairy tale princess, but she's not at all interested in power or politics. If she had had the life that Cersei had, she would probably be quite happy (if a little sad that her husband didn't love her). She didn't get any of those things. Instead, she was kept as a prisoner in the Red Keep for months/over a year, living every day in fear for her life, and unable to make allies because she has no way to know who to trust. Even when she escapes, it's only from one cage to another.
Sansa starts off being starry-eyed and naive, but is learning a bit of common sense as she grows up (though she has a long way to go yet). Cersei may have been starry-eyed and naive at one point in her life, but at the moment, she is paranoid and power-crazy. I see no possible route that involves Sansa becoming at all like Cersei in either personality or actions.
I'm not quite sure wether Sansa was brought up believing she would be a princess and marry advantageously. Not by Ned anyways, he was always more down-to-earth I.M.OAlso, if Sansa would have to live the life of Cercei, she wouldn't be happy at all I think, just because she's not interested in any of the politics, she only wants to be a princess...
Michael wrote: "I'm not quite sure wether Sansa was brought up believing she would be a princess and marry advantageously. Not by Ned anyways, he was always more down-to-earth I.M.O"Maybe not literally a princess, but certainly some important Lord's wife. As the daughter of the Lord of the North, she would be expected to marry into one of the other great families of the Seven Kingdoms, such as the Tyrells, Baratheons, Arryns, Tullys, etc. That's a basic fact of life in their society, the way social alliances are made - it has nothing to do with not being 'down to earth'.
You have to remember she did try to ease everyone else's pain during the Blackwater Battle.Though Cercei would have none of it.
I'm sorry, but I don't see it. Martin has defied the expectation to have Sansa evolve into some savvy player, and it's actually a smart and realistic move. Sure she's a bit more world-wise, but she doesn't take control of her fate the way Arya or Bran have. (Not to mention spoilers, but the whole scene in the Vale with her aunt?? Come on...)I'm not saying she's dull or ignorant, but Sansa is the type of person we see constantly in our real lives: average intelligence, knows enough to get by, but won't amount to much in the world because they have hang -ups, illusions or just allow themselves to be manipulated.
Still, her storyline is the one I read quite intently because I'm fascinated to see what GRRM will do with her.
50 years from now, when Martin's grandson finally finishes this endless saga, I'll return here and enjoy Jack's eating of his own words. The Internet never forgets!
Troy wrote: "50 years from now, when Martin's grandson finally finishes this endless saga, I'll return here and enjoy Jack's eating of his own words. The Internet never forgets!"I don't think I said anything too damning about Sansa, have I? She's probably the most ordinary of Martin's characters, but that's precisely the reason why I'm so interested in her.
She wasn't horrible so much as an 11 year old girl. Contrast her behavior with Joffrey's. He's horrible, she's a naive ninny.Edit to clarify: In the first book. She's getting more savvy as her story goes on.
I don't understand everyone's hate for Sansa. She's just an ordinary little girl, who makes the wrong call on decisions no little girl should have to make.
She is not my favourite of the Stark children by any means, but you can't deny that she is brave. I'm not sure I would have behaved so restrained and dignified throughout all the trauma the Lannisters put her through.
She is not my favourite of the Stark children by any means, but you can't deny that she is brave. I'm not sure I would have behaved so restrained and dignified throughout all the trauma the Lannisters put her through.
Michelle wrote: "I have to remind myself that she really is young and acting like a young, spoiled teenager. As she gets to grow up in a very difficult situation her character is growing and she is becoming very i..."I agree with Michelle. As the story proceeds she becomes more interesting and less irritating. I'm looking forward to seeing how her place in the world changes as she continues to grow up.
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I don't think she'll be a major player but I think she'll be a major bargaining chip but maybe she will grow up and be much more clever.