A Feast for Crows
discussion
What are your thoughts on Sansa Stark?
Someya wrote: "I don't like Sansa as much because of what she stands for. All the other Stark children are taking charge of their lives. Robb is the King of the North, Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch, Arya ..."As I recall, all during the time you describe, Sansa was a hostage--whether she was to be married or not. She was conspiring to flee, but it was very dangerous for her and those around her. The remaining Stark siblings, including Arya, were not facing the kind of abuse, threats and danger that Sansa was facing on a daily basis.
I hate Sansa. I've always hated her and always will. Her chapters have become even more annoying to me, if that's even possible. I would not be overly sad if Martin kills her off.
she's always struck me as and counterpoint to hollywood's/disney's very modern conception of a princess. there would be no female empowerment, or spunky attitudes, and certainly no musical numbers. life would be very harsh and a terrfying contrast to that. he even makes it a point to repeat that she was naive about thinking there was a romantic fairytale ideal to castle life, and that she will learn one day, much to her sorrow, that life is not a song.
Laura wrote: "I don't understand everyone's hate for Sansa. She's just an ordinary little girl, who makes the wrong call on decisions no little girl should have to make. She is not my favourite of the Stark chi..."
I don't think it's hate but rather annoyance. She paid no attention to anything but fairytale and songs. With all that was happening she should have started paying much closer attention to make better decisions. I think her downfall started when she turned against her sister and did not stand up for her against prince Joff.
Sansa is not one of my favourite characters, but I have a lot of sympathy for her. She does start off as naive and brattish, but she's slowly shedding that off. Still, I reckon she'll remain a pawn in the Game as I don't think she's smart enough to be an actual player. Out of all the Starks she's had it the worse. She watched her father die, she's been psychologically abused (and physically too if I remember correctly), and yet she hasn't given up hope. She's managed to hold herself together very well considering her circumstances, which is an admirable quality.
Marie wrote: "Laura wrote: "I don't understand everyone's hate for Sansa. She's just an ordinary little girl, who makes the wrong call on decisions no little girl should have to make. She is not my favourite of..."
She is not my favourite of..."
But that happened very early in the story. Joff hadn't really shown her how much awful, sadistic crap he was capable of at that point. And it turned around and bit her when Lady was put to death because she was the direwolf they had.
Ever since then, people keep telling her that life is not a pretty story or romantic song. And life keeps proving their point. She's growing up, even if it's not happening fast enough for some tastes.
While I can't speak for everyone, I think that part of the reason Sansa is widely disliked is that she represents society. People say that she reacted the way a normal person would...but everyone is different, and for the most part, that is represented in the books, and by the characters. GRRM's characters are very real, very human. So you can't say that she reacted the way a normal person would. She reacted the way that someone who lives by the rules of proper society would, just as Arya did not. To apply it to a modern view, some people follow the strict fashion rules of the 'elite' society. Some do not. Catelyn raised Sansa to believe she was a level above in the world, and so she did. She is struggling to cope with the loss of her fairy tale. I can't say I like her. I may dislike her more than Cersei. But I understand her. I understand that people dislike her because she represents a side of themselves that they try to see in a positive light. Martin strips away the false pretenses that let us live our lives happily. Arya, without her friends, is slowly going insane. And Sansa, without her dreams, is losing her place in the world and doesn't know what to do about it.
I just started rereading A Clash of Kings, and I think her very first chapter belies the notion that she's stupid or helpless. She starts out by having to figure out how to dress herself so that she both pleases Joffrey and hides the bruises from her last beating, and she pulls it off. Yes, this skill would be useless for Arya, but it's not for Sansa.
Then, as terrified as she is about letting her true feelings show, she cleverly replies to Joffrey's news that he intends to challenge Robb to single combat- saying that she'd "like to see that." Being able to mock the king without him fully realizing it is in no way stupid.
Shortly after, she manages to prevent Joffrey from killing Dontos (though she did need help from the Hound). Not even Cersei seems to be able to tell Joff that he can't do something while NOT seeming to tell him that he "can't" do something. Then, even after that brush with disaster, she goes on to tell him that he should go help his little brother.
I don't think she's at all spineless, and the lessons she learned from the Septa aren't useless in her position. She just has to battle with courtesies instead of swords- that doesn't make her less brave or competent than Arya.
I think she'll kill Cersei at some point, possibly ending the series as Queen to Tyrions king ....
I think if she had never been born the House of Stark would still be going strong.
Mathew wrote: "Simon wrote: "I think she'll kill Cersei at some point, possibly ending the series as Queen to Tyrions king ...."No way in the seven Kingdoms will that happen."
That's what GRR wants you to think :)
Deondra wrote: "Just wait until you get to the other books..but I do like her character, especially more as the series goes on."Yeah, she gets more likable as time goes by, but I still think that out of all of Ned's children, she's got the least amount of Stark in her.
I began to grow fond of Sansa sometime during the second book, even though I despised her in the first book (initially, I loved Daenarys and Arya!). I find that she is quite smart and resourceful, though her resources aren't necessarily as obvious as others. Arya often thinks of Syrio's lessons in difficult situations, whereas Sansa reminds herself to use her courtesies to her advantage. I also agree with a previous comment on her treatment of Tyrion at and following their wedding. She had no reason to trust him. As the reader, we have a much different perspective of Tyrion than Sansa had. I wished she were able to open up to him, but I was not offended that she did not.
I look forward to seeing what happens in the final books for her character!!
Michael wrote: "Although in the beginning she was kinda naive I think she will be a major player in the Game of Thrones, certainly under the wings of Littlefinger."I couldn't agree more.
Just like everyone, I hated her guts in the first book when she betrayed Ned, but she suffered a lot for that and later she matured a lot. In her own way, Sansa is just as strong as Arya. Admittedly, she can't use a sword or anything, but she survived being a hostage and managed to escape, and I just never saw Arya being able to pull it off. In that situation, Arya would probably get herself killed with her attitude, just as much as Sansa would get herself killed in Arya's situation.
The alliance with Littlefinger will surely make her a major player.
I am really looking forward to how her character will play out in the future (probably very distant future) books. I will be very disappointed if something grand and important doesn't happen to her, because then it would be like all that golden character development gone to waste.
Kristina wrote: "In her own way, Sansa is just as strong as Arya."Yeah, the books do a better job of expressing that than the series does, that's for sure! In the series, she just seems to be lacking that spark, you know?
Sara wrote: "I will be very disappointed if something grand and important doesn't happen to her..."I have to agree with you. While she is not my favorite character by any means, I think I like the Starks the most out of the major families. They seem to be one of the only ones with any honesty and sense of honor anyway, but look what that got poor Ned.
Alayne really did well in this book, I enjoy every chapter of her.maybe 'coz of petyr and his influence in her.
I thought she was spoiled and cared only about her self.
She may have a big role coming in the future but as of 'Dance of Dragons' = Zzzzzzzz, used, gullible but learning the HARD way, & still has her maiden head so that's a plusI'm gonna make a future call... I think when Arya becomes a faceless/many faced assassin she will get Sansa as a target, but her name won't be Sansa so their will be some serious sibling drama when they meet... Arya is by FAR one of the best characters, if RRM kills Arya and/or Danerys, I'm out... That will leave like 4 peeps I really care about that aren't dead
I skipped over reading a lot of these posts because they were starting to make me very angry (Sansa is my muffin). Firstly, it is not necessary at all to compare Sansa to Arya when talking about how much you like or dislike her character. Secondly, Sansa Stark is NOT dumb or a "ditz." Her behavior and ways of thinking in the beginning of the story were entirely the product of the way she was raised. She's had a lot of growing up to do, and she's learning a lot from Littlefinger. I'm confident that she's going to become an important player by the end of the series. My ultimate endgame for her is Queen in the North, though I admit it's a little idealistic :)
Keshena wrote: "Deanna wrote: "I skipped over reading a lot of these posts because they were starting to make me very angry (Sansa is my muffin). Firstly, it is not necessary at all to compare Sansa to Arya when t..."I feel like Sansa wouldn't ever want to go back to King's Landing, and that all she would really want if she ever got her life back would be to restore Winterfell and make her family there. But if I'm wrong I would love to see her on the Iron Throne too. I'm a little disappointed about that as well, but I have high hopes for Sansa-related content in The Winds of Winter. The title is very Stark-ish haha.
I was once really hard on Sansa, but I eventually came to blame Ned and Catelyn for her naivete. They practically allowed her to go through life believing that she lived in some sort of fairy tale, which severely impaired her when it was time to live in the real world. That upbringing is simply not acceptable, even if you are privileged due to wealth and beauty.
Sansa needs to grow up. Hopefully she will take notes from Littlefinger & get rid of him & save herself and maybe get back with what's left of her family.
Athinia wrote: "I think she has gotten what she deserves... She should have never lied for that little twit Jofferies."Yes, she totally got what she deserved. I mean, because not every sheltered eleven year old girl would lie for their betrothed. You shall do well to remember that in Sansa's eyes in the first book, Joffrey is not a little shit, like we know he is. In her eyes, Joffrey is the prince she had heard about in songs, a knight, the man she was going to spend the rest of her life with. The man who would take her to the south, where everything was perfect. Again, you must be thinking that she's a stupid girl for believing all that but Sansa didn't choose to grow up like that. Her Septa, her Lady Mother and Father never cared enough to shake her out of those ideals. If you're talking about what happened in the King's Road, Sansa tried to remain neutral. She was dragged infront of the King, and Queen (who she admired) and she was asked to call the crown prince a liar. Not wanting harm to come to Arya, and not wanting do deceive her betrothed. And it still got her direwolf, Lady, killed.
Her father didn't warn her about the dangerous situation they were in, like he did with Arya. But totally, every eleven year old girl deserves to see her father's head being chopped off, and yes you might argue that it was her fault. But Sansa only told the Queen of her father's plans to take her away because she was worried about it. Breaking a betrothal was punished by the Gods.
And like.. I mean, totally every eleven year old girl deserves to be beaten and stripped in front of court for the sole purpose of being born a Stark.
She also totally deserved to be forced into the family who had caused all the misfortune to her family. To a man who is reputed to be a drunkard, and to frequent brothels. She doesn't know Tyrion's good nature like we do, in her eyes he is just another Lannister.
I assume there is sarcasm & a like for Sansa Starks character from u Rickon. I think she will play a much larger part in the series as it continues but if Bran survives which I think he will cuz he's badass, even her claim to Winterfell is not valid because everyone thinks Bran is dead. I even think Sansa will get her revenge somehow using the manipulations she learns from littlefinger.Although I agree with a few points u made, Sansa made her decision to 'want' to live in a world of fairy tales until it came crashing in on her, her father was just trying to keep her happy, just like he was keeping Arya happy by getting a real sword teacher if she was going to be stubborn about not being like her sister ever since they were young. This started sewing the seeds of loathing between the 2 sisters which ultimately makes the first paragraph not accurate. I have 2 main issues:
The first major issue is that Sansa WAS NOT neutral, she backed Joff up with all the cowardly acts he did that eventually got an innocent kid (Mika) killed. She was completely blind to what Joff was doing to this poor peasant who was scared stiff of 'the prince', & it seems his fright was not misplaced. Its only when he really started bullying Mika did Arya & Nimerea step in & show him his lack of backbone when faced with something other than a scared peasant that merely didn't want to anger the prince. In that moral situation, who cares about a wolf compared to a childs life?
2nd during the argument that occurred after the drama, once again she did NOT stay neutral, she let her 'love' for a person she did not even know (her betrothed) split blood ties. She back up every lie Joff said by saying nothing or even agreeing to how events did not happen, & she did this against her sister, her blood, showing her naivete & therefore making her a target for Cersei. If it wasn't for Sansa, it can be argued that Cersei never would have found out what was to happen ahead of time & have set up a counter to when Ned approached her with his ultimatum. Sansa might not be the reason Ned was killed, but she surely didn't help, & Cersei openly admits this.
The killing of her Direwolf was a shame, but Cersei already openly proclaimed her hatred for the animals & Arya, the younger girl was smart enuff to scare Nimerea away to avoid the wolf getting the punishment, somewhat foreshadowing the need of a scapegoat for the injuries to Joff. Its a shame it was Lady, but IMO expected from a character as cold as Cersei. I can def. go on about a few other minor things like the fact that Ned did warn his whole family that the red keep was nothing like Winterfell & too watch out. How was he to see his demise?
Overall, I agree Sansa was used & abused, & the majority of it was not her fault, but at the same time, in a place like court, timidity is probably the worst trait u can have because it made her a target of others cruelty, esp. a sociopath like Joffrey.
She was neutral after the fact when questioned about what happened. She said she couldn't remember because she didn't want to confirm the lie, but was afraid to state the truth. I'm sure a lot people like to think that as the situation was happening, they'd behave like Arya, not Sansa. I'm not sure those people are being realistic. At the age those girls were, it is much more common to stay quiet and hope it goes away than to speak up. We all went to middle school and high school.
I don't think high born women think like that, they do what they please or in her mind what she thinks will please, she barely knows the punk & her lil'sis is more courageous, she is the bourgeoisie, no peasant like Mika, they say what they want, like Arya. In my HS the kids didnt have castles & have to worry about how ur family might look to others around them, ESP one that is a blood feuded history (Lannister & Stark)... I don't think she has any excuse, if I remember correctly that was the 1st time she really got to 'chill' with the punk Joffrey... we don't have princes & queens/kings, look at the lady of thorns from Martell, she says & does whatever she chooses & learned early this 'game of thrones', since she was a child, Joff is a sociopath
I always felt sorry for Sansa. She was raised and worked hard to be a proper lady. She excelled at all the things they asked her to. Westeros is not a place that is kind to women, who are regarded as property. I think she has held up admirably. The situation in the first book I can forgive-- she had no idea of the consequences of her actions. She looked to the Queen as a mother figure and she was played and manipulated by much more experienced connivers. Stark was dead the moment he pursued the records of the family lines/Robert's bastards. He was also betrayed by the Court's Small Council. Sansa and her brother have both made very bad decisions that led to their downfall but she at least is still alive and unraped. And that is something in war torn Westeros. She has none of the ambition, pride and cruelty that Cersei possesses.
Kathy wrote: "I always felt sorry for Sansa. She was raised and worked hard to be a proper lady. She excelled at all the things they asked her to. Westeros is not a place that is kind to women, who are regard..."Thats at least part of the reason I still think she plays a major part in the book... I have this crazy theory that she will run into Arya when Arya becomes a faceless assassin over some job she must do, perhaps kill littlefinger & Sansa is still Elaine so Arya would never know. Or she'll just do it herself using the manipulative techniques from the master (LF). Many people also think Sandor Clegane is still alive (a personal favorite of mine) & he was always in love with her & trying to protect he as best as he could without making himself look weak, he could somehow re-appear with good or malicious motives... then theres a long shot about who the 'young queen' prophesied to take Cersie's crown.. I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot, it all comes down to, yes Sansa hasn't exactly had the life of her dreams, far from it, but she's not stupid so hopefully she'll put her big girl pants on & bash some heads lol
@Gordon, but a highborn lady would still be quite conscious of the fact that the royal family was above her, and that calling one of them a liar would have repercussions. Was it cowardly of her to not speak up? Yes, it was. Was I surprised? Nope. It was totally in keeping with how I'd expect her to have acted, as the character had been presented.Although, I feel that the expectation of them being softer and more ladylike was Cat's decision and influence. From all accounts, Lyanna wasn't like that. Neither are the Mormont ladies, or Brienne. That may be straying from topic, though.
That's a small part of what I'm saying, should she tread carefully? Of course! But she's the daughter of 'The Hand of The King' so she not exactly just some non-entity. IMO she let her 'love' for Joff, plus many other events, blind her to court politics until she was hit time & time again, she's learning... Just the really hard way LoL. Lynnna is a great example of the bloodline.
Sansa really started out as this idealistic romantic girl with her view of life as a lady and felt she was living the fairytale--what 13/14 year old girl does not? I think she has be very wise to stay alive thus far. She uses the courtesy customs of her class and society as her protections--although the very basic courtesy her mother used--the courtesy and protection of hospitality was betrayed however, that was a transgression of a key taboo in society and the Freys will never live it down but it is symbolic of the breakdown of society in the growing Winter (notice the themes Wilding/Winter/Wars/Wall/Westeros--very alliteral). In fact, I believe she has been very brave. She has a different courage than Arya but I think she too, has Stark Steel in her spine.
Samantha wrote: "I didn't care too much for Sansa's character in the first book, though I thought her casting on the show made her more likable. As the series continued I think she's become really interesting and c..."I've always felt bad for Sansa. ya she was sort of a spoiled brat kind of...but she never deserved any of the things that happened to her (I have seen people imply she did is why I bring it up. But idk...I don't find her compelling either. Her story is interesting because it's sort of following Littlefinger around, and that's really the only thing that makes it interesting. I can say that she has a tremendous amount of strength considering all the things that happen to her she's managed to sort of keep her grip. I feel as if she's more of a narrative tool rather than a character that's celebrated.
I get why people want to see the strength in her character. Despite her stereotypically "lady like" persona in the first book, she's endured terrible hardships and gone through some traumas that would have left another person broken and dead by now. Its easy to see her as a weak character because she seems to find herself being treated like the victim in one scenario or another, but somehow, she keeps going and remains altogether positive.I am really tired at this point of seeing her endure, and its one of Martin's habits that I find really aggravating. Is it too much to ask that a good character will eventually find some kind of resolution, or at least be spared further trauma after awhile?
Matthew wrote: "I am really tired at this point of seeing her endure, and its one of Martin's habits that I find really aggravating. Is it too much to ask that a good character will eventually find some kind of resolution, or at least be spared further trauma after awhile? "I suspect that Sansa is most comparable to the real world historical personage of Margaret Beaufort, so if that's the case she winds up spawning a Tudor who would be the first of a dynasty, and living to a ripe old age (long enough to make annoy her offspring on down the line for a good while) which would make for a relatively happy ending for that character. Of course, the series is a fantasy fictionalization that is inspired by the War of the Roses, and the real world history need have no actual bearing on the resolution that Martin has in mind (or hasn't thought up yet.) And I could be wrong about Sansa=MB in the first place....
Matthew wrote: "Is it too much to ask that a good character will eventually find some kind of resolution, or at least be spared further trauma after awhile?"But Sansa isn't enduring any trauma at the moment, is she? After Lysa's death at the end of ASoS, Sansa has been relatively safe in the Eyrie, and mostly her problems consist of managing her annoying little cousin, and keeping Littlefinger an arm's length away. While that's not exactly nothing, it's a far better situation than watching her father get murdered; being beaten, threatened, humiliated and imprisoned; being forcibly married; learning about her entire family being slaughtered, etc.
Mitali wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Is it too much to ask that a good character will eventually find some kind of resolution, or at least be spared further trauma after awhile?"But Sansa isn't enduring any trauma at..."
And nearly being killed by her aunt, who was then murdered by Littlefinger. She's not only had her life threatened, but is now complicit in covering up a murder, and is subject to Littlefinger's ongoing attempts to bed her. Sure, its not as bad as being subject to Joffrey's constant abuse and Cersei's oppressive arrogance, but it still seems bad to me.
I will always have a love/hate thing for Sansa but I do admire her character growth and pity her. I really hope she escapes Littlefinger before he rapes her. His thing with her is creeping me out more and more.I'm also bummed that she didn't end up having a romance with the Hound. Her interactions with him had made her more interesting, IMO. Never wanted her with Tyrion. Tyrion deserved better and with all that Sansa has suffered it would be nice if she got a "true knight" after all, like the Hound. :)
Everyone seems to hate her, but I just can't dislike her. At the beginning of the series, she is exactly the sort of girl she was raised to be. She was raised to meet and to have certain expectations, so she does. People seem to hold that against her, but I can't hate her for being normal and well-behaved. I will probably never love her like I love Arya, of course, but I have always liked her. So many of Martin's characters are rather abnormal or exceptional. (Look at her siblings. Arya's a batshit insane little freak by the fifth book, bless her, and Rob manages to be an excellent general at sixteen, etc.) She is relatively ordinary, exceptional only in her beauty. This makes her a great litmus test by which to judge the insanity of her world. I think that alone makes her valuable, but I also think she will have a very key role to play in the series.
I think everyone is too harsh on Sansa and so was I on my first, raw reading of AGoT. But then, there are several things that we should consider:1) The PoV are not objective. When we see Sansa through the eyes of Arya, we should keep in mind that we are seeing a bit of the natural sibling little grudges and rivalries. These are encouraged by the septa. There is a particular scene, where Arya calls the attention of the septa by raising her voice, but then when Sansa tries to deflect it to something else, Arya thinks "typical Sansa, calling the attention of the septa". This doesn't mean Sansa is a saint and Arya a bad girl; this is normal children/siblings behavior.
2) Sansa is the typical girl who was raised to be a proper lady and she enjoys and fulfills this role. It is not fair to condemn her for that. A woman doesn't need to be a "badass supercool warrior" to be a good woman. I don't need to say all the things she did and how relatively well she adapted to her hostage situation in King's Landing; others already did (the dress choice, saving Dontos' life, etc.).
3) Sansa is not to blame for either Mycah/Lady's deaths or Ned's downfall. Yes, she chose to keep silent at the mock-trial (she was raised to be politically correct as a lady), but the "hunt" for Mycah had been already organized and was in motion by that time, so Sansa's testimony wasn't going to change what the Hound was going to do to him. And don't forget that Ned trusted Littlefinger and told him about his plot... So, regardless of the fact that Sansa told the queen that they were being sent off, Littlefinger knew it and he was the one to orchestrate his demise.
4) Naiveté is not necessarily stupidity, especially in a child. Ned was so incredibly naive for a grown man, Lord of Winterfell! I remember yelling at the book when he chose to confront Cersei and give her the chance to flee King's Landing. But nobody here thinks that Ned received what he deserved for being stupid. Yet, people say this about Sansa, a child! Arya may be more impulsive and aggressive, but that doesn't make her any smarter in Mycah's issue.
5) Last, like someone else pointed out, no little girl deserves the kind of pain and abuse that Sansa received, no matter her own "stupid" decisions. Of course she made stupid choices and so did Arya. They are KIDS. She and Arya had very different experiences and went through different kinds of ordeals. Each one of them happened to have the skills and wits to adapt and survive, each in their own situation. To praise the badass warrior while despising the diplomatic lady sounds a little misogynistic, in my opinion.
Sansa is such an excessively shallow creature,that no matter how hard i try to justify her behavior,i just can't.While in King's Landing,she had grown accustomed to abuse from Joffrey and some of the kingsguard.Yet she failed to acknowledge Tyrion's kindness.All she saw was someone who didn't conform to her mental image of a "handsome" man.She saw him as a monstrous and ugly creature and nothing more.After being tormented by Joffrey for so long,i find it strange that she didn't immediately understand Tyrion's kindness and she humiliated him in every single way she could.I can never forget the way she humiliated Tyrion at their wedding.It was so very unkind and the fact that she did that to humiliate the only person trying to protect her in that godforsaken place cements my belief that at the core,Sansa Stark is not a good person.
Barnana wrote: "Sansa is such an excessively shallow creature,that no matter how hard i try to justify her behavior,i just can't.While in King's Landing,she had grown accustomed to abuse from Joffrey and some of t..."So because she was wed to him who is a little better than Joffrey she is supposed to be beholden to him for the rest of her days!? This idea that men are entitled to women's love is the picture Martin is trying to paint to show us how it used to be in those times and how it is wrong. So Tyrion did not hurt her? He could have. But he did not which is why I think he has a shred of decency. But he could have done so much more for her, a little girl used as Cersei's puppet, and he didn't. Sansa has a right to be very unhappy. She was forced to marry a man she hated, and its not just about his looks! You make Sansa out to be so shallow! She hated him becuase he's a lannister and his family killed her father. She hates him because she's a little girl, which everyone seems to forget, who just wants to go home. She hates him for many reasons other than him not being "good looking." Sansa Stark is NOT a bad person. She is a normally very kind person but we all reach a breaking point where we just do something rude. Yeah, it was rude but she was angry and scared, and she blamed Tyrion for what was happening to her and it was partially his fault. Don't tell me you'd not forget to be polite if you were being married at twelve to a total stranger you loath? Sansa has shown more dignity as a twelve year old than ANY other character in her circumstances so far, so I think she can be excused that one time. I'd like to see you try to walk a mile in this girl's shoes and see if you handle it with as much grace and decency.
Hideous as Tyrion may have seemed to her, the main reason why she never "acknowledged his kindness" was that he was A LANNISTER!In A Clash of Kings, chapter 32, she gets chastised and Tyrion saves her. She is taken away and given dreamwine to sleep. Waking up, she sees two scary people (human ears hanging, remember?) by her door saying "The Halfman says you're not to leave". She even asks him if she is his prisoner, but then she politely thanks him for his help in the incident. Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the King (in exercise), bluntly asks her what she feels for Joffrey. Is she supposed to know that he won't run to tell Cersei whatever she tells, if she is sincere? Then he goes on and asks her if she has her periods! So, true, he tells her that he doesn't intend her to marry Joffrey. I quote:
"You grow very quiet," Tyrion Lannister observed. "Is this what you want? An end to your betrothal?"
"I..." Sansa did not know what to say. Is it a trick? Will he punish me if I tell the truth?
And then, when she eventually flowers, she is to marry Tyrion! Wouldn't you think, in her situation, that that was the reason Tyrion was so interested in her flowering and that it was true, he didn't want her to marry Joffrey because he wanted her for himself? Again, why would she think any better coming from a Lannister?
The first thought on Sansa's head when Cersei tells her that she must marry Tyrion is "My claim" (Winterfell), not "That horrible monster".
I think, though I may be wrong, that Sansa hadn't read Tyrion's chapters of the books, so she had no idea that this Lannister wasn't exactly like the others Lannisters or that he could be trying to protect her. In fact, not trusting a Lannister sounded like a pretty smart idea, from her point of view and knowing what SHE knew, not what the reader knows.
Hannah wrote: "Barnana wrote: "Sansa is such an excessively shallow creature,that no matter how hard i try to justify her behavior,i just can't.While in King's Landing,she had grown accustomed to abuse from Joffr..."Exactly my thoughts; I was writing at the same time.
And one more thing: If Sansa was so shallow and took Tyrion just for his looks... how come she was so gentle with Sandor Clegane, to the point that she broke the Hound's brutality and reduced him to a confused guy who just wanted to take her away and protect her?
Laura wrote: "If Sansa was so shallow and took Tyrion just for his looks... how come she was so gentle with Sandor Clegane, to the point that she broke the Hound's brutality and reduced him to a confused guy who just wanted to take her away and protect her?"I'd argue she does that out of a sense of self-preservation. She knows she's manipulating him, and she is "kind" to him because of the fear of violence (sexual and otherwise) that he clearly exhibits. Sansa is clearly horrified by Sandor's appearance. She'd behave differently were she not afraid of him. Her treatment of Tyrion is more likely a reflection of her character because she isn't fearing for her safety when interacting with him.
Laura wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Barnana wrote: "Sansa is such an excessively shallow creature,that no matter how hard i try to justify her behavior,i just can't.While in King's Landing,she had grown accustomed to a..."Hannah wrote: "Barnana wrote: "Sansa is such an excessively shallow creature,that no matter how hard i try to justify her behavior,i just can't.While in King's Landing,she had grown accustomed to abuse from Joffr..."
You believe Sansa Stark is a good person?Very well.But riddle me this.What was Sansa's reaction when Joffrey attacked Mycah?Why did she lie and say she didn't remember anything when she was called upon as a witness?The only plausible explanation is that she was scared of displeasing Joffrey and putting an end to her dream of being the queen.She was completely okay with Joffrey's bad behavior as long as she wasn't adversely affected by it.Maybe she didn't know the true extent of his cruelty then,but there had never been any question about the fact that Joffrey was cruel.She didn't care that a boy was dead.Why should she?To her,he was just a butcher's boy and she was practically royalty.She has no moral compass and owing to her stupidity,Lady lost her life too.My assessment of Sansa's charcter is not based on her dealings with Tyrion alone.Sure,some of her initial wariness when it came to Tyrion was understandable.Her fear of what Tyrion intended to do with her was justified in every way.Also,another issue I have with her character is lack of courage.You might argue that she was strong enough to survive Joffrey,but that was because of her complete inability to act and not courage.She perceives everything different as wrong.The way she never even tried to understand her little sister.Where's the grace in that?You can adore 'graceful' and 'decent' Sansa all you want,but not me.I prefer strong women.Women who actually have the strength to fight.Like Arya.To me,Sansa Stark is a girl who will always need a man to help her survive.She's an embodiment of the kind of woman that I could never accept.Also the point GRRM was trying to make with Sansa's character is that some women are always gonna wait to be rescued.That's my interpretation of it at least.Also,about the Sandor Clegane thing,I don't recall Sansa ever being particularly nice to the hound.When Joffrey started tormenting her after Ned Stark's death,she merely stopped being as condescending as before.This is a girl who couldn't look Sandor in the eye because he was disfigured.That doesn't seem shallow to you?She chose to disobey the father who had showered her with nothing but love and affection and went running to Cersei and Joffrey instead.There's betrayal for you.You may argue that she was too young to understand the consequences,but that wouldn't make a lot of sense because most of the central characters in ASOIAF are ridiculously young to be doing the things they do.You might argue that the idea of a 14 year old girl as queen is absurd too.My point is,this is not about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion and what she may or may not have done to hurt him.Its about the fact that she's a coward and her refusal to let anything stand in the way of her and her dream of being queen ultimately resulted in destroying a lot of lives,one of them being her father.Also,selective kindness doesn't really qualify as kindness.You may defend her all you want,but I'd take Arya over her any day.She has the guts to question the existing social hierarchy and where women figure in that hierarchy and she started doing that a long time before the war even started.Sansa Stark is weak and mean-minded.Do I sympathise with her?Sure.She's been through a lot.But sympathy is all that girl deserves.I refuse to confuse sympathy with respect.Also,at the end of the day,everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
If you think that Sansa was mean to Arya or that they were some sort of enemies, you clearly have no clue how siblings interact when they are that age. But I said that in my above post.Now, let me remind you that Arya didn't stick around and fight. She ran away and hid, like any normal little girl her age. That brought her a whole set of difficulties, suffering and trauma. Sansa didn't have the option of running away and hiding, so she stayed. That brought her a whole set of difficulties, suffering and trauma.
If you think Sansa isn't strong and didn't do anything other than waiting to be rescued, just because she didn't grab a sword and charged against the Kingsguard; if you think that graceful and decent are the opposite of strong, then you have a very poor concept of women.
About Sansa, Mycah and Arya, I "riddled you that" in a post above (message 152). I stick to that. I could find quotes from the books if you are curious, but I don't think it's necessary.
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Jon, Bran, Rickon and Robb were fighting for their northern roots and were with their wolves. Arya is a lost child, her wolf missing. Sansa's wolf is dead, as is her Stark pride.
No, she is not making the most of her situation. She feels sorry for herself and won't grow up. Instead of hatching a plan for herself, she waits for someone else to because she views herself both a damsel and a victim.