Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
discussion
If you've read Mortal Instruments you'll find this interesting...
I found this review very funny. Its got a lot of info on Clare's past and on who she's "borrowed" her ideas from. It's also written by a woman which in the sea of male critics means a lot to me.http://theweek.com/article/index/2485....#
Most here no that already. This one is also funny: http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/revi...The film seems so jumbled that the reviewer thought Jace was 1000 years old. :D
I disagree. There are many similarities to many diffrent books. It's a coincidence, and honestly those few things you mentioned are the only things that they have in common.
Stéphanie wrote: "I disagree. There are many similarities to many diffrent books. It's a coincidence, and honestly those few things you mentioned are the only things that they have in common."Keep deluding yourself, honey.
inga wrote: "Stéphanie wrote: "I disagree. There are many similarities to many diffrent books. It's a coincidence, and honestly those few things you mentioned are the only things that they have in common."Keep deluding yourself, honey."
Exactly. The similarities between Underworld and Blade (basically the dress) can be considered coincidence. But City of Bones has so many things in common not only with Harry Potter but also Star Wars, Twilight, Underworld, Angel Sanctuary and who knows what else (e.g. the term mundie might come from the comic books Fables) that this can hardly be called coincidence. And it is also a fact that the name "The Mortal Instruments" is based on a HP fanfic of Clare's back in 2004 and that City of Bones sometimes downright copied stuff from her Draco fanfic.
I disagree that CoB has anything to do with Angel Sanctuary aside from the incest plot, plus in AS, the siblings stay being siblings to the end, the author never suddenly allows them to un-sibling all of a sudden. Plus if AS were anything like CoB, I will start crying right now...
Mizuki wrote: "I disagree that CoB has anything to do with Angel Sanctuary aside from the incest plot, plus in AS, the siblings stay being siblings to the end, the author never suddenly allows them to un-sibling ..."I said in common, not that it has something to do with that. Clare apparently borrowed elements from all other the place and considered that she mentioned that comic in City of Glass I think we must consider the possibility that she copied elements from that as well.
Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: " Clare apparently borrowed elements from all other the place and considered that she mentioned that comic in City of Glass I think we must consider the possibility that she copied elements from that as well. "but it's a bit too far and too vague, if TMI is anything like AS, it would have been a 100% better series. And i think we can't accuse Clare for being inspired by a manga or book, so far our strongest point is Harry Potter and Star Wars and Buffy. So using vague arguments like this would only weaken our points.
It is possible that she was just inspired but still, considered her general lack of originality I doubt that this was all.But in either case I would also say Underworld is another source since what is stated about the origin and conflict of werewolves and vampires mirrors that quite alot. Allegedly its in their nature and they are descended of two opposing "demon species".
Also I don't think that the similarities between Jace and Edward Cullen is coincidental, it is either copying or both are this way because they are Gary Stues. But considered that both are descriped as physically perfect, watch their "loved ones" sleep, go through their stuff, speak several languages, play piano, have slim fingers, likened to angelic beings and in real life would be at least stalkers I think its valid to consider that Jace is not only based on Draco from the fanfic but also borrows traits from Edward Cullen unless of corse Edward is also a copy of some other character, then maybe Jace is based on that one.
Andre wrote: "It is possible that she was just inspired but still, considered her general lack of originality I doubt that this was all.Clare also mentioned Naruto but it would be a wild guess to say she copied from that series. I think the reference of manga is more like her showing off: "LOOK! I know and read some cool manga!"
*coughs* Angel Sanctuary is a far better series than anything Clare has to offer. *coughs* And did you notice how crazy it's for Max, a nine years old to be allowed to read AS? Not only there's incest, there're also vague sex scene, a lot of fight/battle scenes and Karoi Yuki loves drawing bloody (but beautiful) scenes as well. (e.g. an important character got torn to pieces at one point, plus a lot of characters also coughing blood while dying.=__=) But no, no one thinks there's a problem.
But in either case I would also say Underworld is another source since wh..."
I don't think I have paid enough attention on Underworld and Jace's personality to press any judgement. But I do think Underworld did start that cliches about vampires vs werewolves.
Mizuki wrote: "Clare also mentioned Naruto but it would be a wild guess to say she copied from that series. I think the reference of manga is more like her showing off: "LOOK! I know and read some cool manga!""Good point, so this probably fits better with her habit of name dropping.
Mizuki wrote: "And did you notice how crazy it's for Max, a nine years old to be allowed to read AS? "
That occured to me today yes. Granted I never read the manga but I did watch the animee and the stuff was pretty violent and from what I know of the manga, alot there is pretty gritty as well. Like most stuff letting Max read this comic makes the Lightwoods look like very bad parents. Not that Clare really thought about that if you ask me, she probably did place it in there for the reason you mentioned.
Mizuki wrote: "I don't think I have paid enough attention on Underworld and Jace's personality to press any judgement. But I do think Underworld did start that cliches about vampires vs werewolves. "
The similarity with Jace's personality is not the problem, but the elements I mentioned. Again the things each for itself are nothing but when they are all there it becomes suspicious. Granted it could be that both characters were born out of the same desire to romanticize such characters.
Now the whole vampires vs werewolves did not start with Underworld but the film brought it to mainstream attention. The earliest example I know of, and where I know the date of publishing, was in the game line World of Darkness with Werewolf the Apocalypse. Actually that is the only example that I can remember where I considered it done right. In that scenario the "conflict" was woven into the wider mythology. In that game werewolves and many other shapeshifters were so to say protectors of the Earth and vampires, due to being undead bloodsuckers whose humanity can't do any different then erode (in most cases), are fundamentally a part of power called the Wyrm, a former power of balance now turned destructive, mad and corrupting, and naturally the werewolves stand against that power. And so they don't target vampires specifically but rather vampires are part of a much bigger threat and trust me far from being the freakiest or most powerful.
Andre wrote: Good point, so this probably fits better with her habit of name dropping.Names dropping is so common in the realm of fanfics, but I had thought a professional author would know better.
"Granted I never read the manga but I did watch the animee and the stuff was pretty violent and from what I know of the manga, alot there is pretty gritty as well.
Okay, in the anime alone, an important character got his torso cut open with blood all over. And it isn't for the eyes of a nine years old.
PS: when I first read AS, I was 13 years old.XD
Like most stuff letting Max read this comic makes the Lightwoods look like very bad parents. Not that Clare really thought about that if you ask me,
I can't even remember the Lightwoods couple doing anything to Max which remotely looks parenting.
As to Jace, I think all the traits about him and his 'personality' should be blamed on the mainstream myth about 'asshole=misunderstood bad boy who needs a girl's true love to save him'.
I will check the Vampire Film book to find out about this vampires vs werewolves thingy.XD
And the fact that AS was apparently just there for name dropping is one of the things why JK Rowling did it better. The books Hermione read told us about her as a character and it later showed that it fit. But reading AS and Naruto does not seem to fit Max at all. You could say that he read them because he wanted to escape reality but would a kid like that then really be around so often and have to be send out of a room? Wouldn't such a kid reading Naruto be more outgoing or in the other direction very introverted? After all Naruto as a characters isn't exactly the master of subtlety.
Try this, you will love it:http://flavorwire.com/411365/cassanda...
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news...
(read this, really read this!!!)
Andre wrote: "Try this, you will love it:http://flavorwire.com/411365/cassanda...
http://flavorwire.com/410684/what-is-......"
It makes my day when I see CC being called out on her horrendous behavior.
The thing about JKR is that she took classical fantasy ideas (magic, wise mentor etc) as well as the old tales of children at school and brought them one. Not say a child attending a wizard school isn't a new idea. It's just she expanded it and put a new spin on it. Cassandra Clare didn't do this, she blatantly took ideas of JKR and others and simply renamed and didn't do any research in anything else. Face it in fifty years, you'll still remember Harry Potter but not Mortal Instruments because almost every generation will take something away from it not some rabid fan girls who defend a woman who is clearly a thief!!
You probably have a good point there. Which makes it all the more frustrating that it took a movie to make critics see what is wrong with the material.Also how bad she is as a writer. In 50 years there will probably no mentioning of what she says in interviews and all so what she states about her characters should have been in the books and not God knows where on some Internetsite.
Jo wrote: "On the original post though. Characters are going to resemble each other when they are based on the same ideas. Read The Boy in the Stripped Pyjamas and the father and son in that seem very much li..."Lol wut
Why
Why was that
Why did you
Why
PS. Sorry, am I too late for this? D:
Not to late, but since that Jo commented on the first page, I think it would have been better to show more of his comment. Well I found it and so I am just gonna quote it, so people know what you were referring to:Jo wrote:"On the original post though. Characters are going to resemble each other when they are based on the same ideas. Read The Boy in the Stripped Pyjamas and the father and son in that seem very much like the Malfoys. As they SHOULD, because the Malfoys are supposed to be Nazi (JK's inspiration for them), and the characters in the stripped pyjamas are a Nazi and his son.
Any book based on the Holocaust is going to have characters like the Malfoys, because of this."
Oh sorry I've only really just starting commenting on forums so I'm not 100% what to do sometimes. How do you quote the entire thing?
It's Ok, we have all been there. ;)You can either use the commands for italics or you simply push "reply" on the bottom of the comments, then the first few sentences will appear in your own comment.
Andre wrote: "But reading AS and Naruto does not seem to fit Max at all. You could say that he read them because he wanted to escape reality but would a kid like that then really be around so often and have to be send out of a room? Wouldn't such a kid reading Naruto be more outgoing or in the other direction very introverted? "AS and Naruto have nothing to do with Max's personality. I can't remember clearly, but is that Clary who had encouraged Max to read manga? Then it means those manga are only there to highlight Clary's identity as an artist, it's not about Max's personality, haha.
I checked it. Max had the Naruto manga bought at the airport because he liked the picture and Clary showed him how to read it. So either way, you are right, it was about Clary, again, and not Max.
Andre wrote: "So either way, you are right, it was about Clary, again, and not Max."So it's confirmed that Clare doesn't care about Max and his character, he's only brought there so he can be killed off in City of Glass and Sebastian can be revealed as a villain.
And so none of her main characters would have to be killed. It was the same in CoLS when she killed Amatis. Actually that whole thing makes no sense since the "evil" Shadowhunters could clearly see that AMatis was no longer herself and neither would they then, not to mention that they must be extremely stupid to thinhk that drinking demon blood would allow them to use their seraph blades.
Amatis...Luke's sister? Goodness I can't even remember she was killed! My bad. But after reading your next sentence, I remember now that she was forced to drink demon blood and turned evil.
Anyway, Amatis is disposable to Clare, so she was being pushed forward to die.
Talking about character death, let me tell you once more that I was utterly pissed off when in City of Glass, Clary heard that a warlock was killed by the bad guy, but she shows absolutely no reaction to this death.
I can't remember the warlock's name, I only remember Clary is supposed to be looking for him but Sebastian went one step ahead and killed him first.
That was Ragnor Fell. And speaking of that, in that case Clary is a bad copy of Harry and Ginny, both would have shown some more emotion I would think. I mean it was her mother that was at stake there. If you copy, at least copy right.
both would have shown some more emotion I would think. You are right, Ragnor was killed partly because of Clary, and Clary didn't even react to his death.
And then there's a woman called Madeline (I'm not sure if I remember her name right), who was also killed and who was supposed to be a friend of Clary's mother, again Clary didn't react at all when she was murdered.
That girl shows as much emotion as a piece of wood when Jace isn't at stake.
But talking about Harry Potter, I heard that when Sirius died, he hardly spent more than a second to mourn his godfather.
I guess I get it....but noooo
Mizuki wrote: " both would have shown some more emotion I would think. You are right, Ragnor was killed partly because of Clary, and Clary didn't even react to his death.
And then there's a woman called Madelin..."
Oh the woman that was killed at the start of City of Glass. Yeah that was one useless piece of plot.
Well Harry did do some more than just accept it. He had problems coming to terms with the fact that Sirius was dead and couldn't believe it at first, basically since Sirius just fell through that Portal, which apparently was a gateway to the realm of the dead and from there there is no coming back. Harry thought at first that Sirius might return as a ghost and therefore sought out the Nearly Headless Nick, but Nick told him that Sirius was not someone to return as a ghost.
Mizuki wrote: " both would have shown some more emotion I would think. You are right, Ragnor was killed partly because of Clary, and Clary didn't even react to his death.
And then there's a woman called Madelin..."
Wait wait no? There's an entire chapter, where Harry is in Dumbledore's office and he's like throwing things and yelling at Dumbledore and Dumbledore's like 'it's all my fault, I should have told you about the prophecy earlier, but I didn't, because I love you' and Harry's all like crying and stuff.
And also Harry like goes to kill Bellatrix as revenge and hits her with the Cruciatix (I didn't spell that right?) and she's like laughing and then Voldemort attacks... it's a big thing
Right I forgot that. He hunted Bellatrix and stopped her with the Cruciatus curse, well temporarily since he was motived by the desire for revenge and not causing pain as would be needed for the curse.
Andre wrote: "Oh the woman that was killed at the start of City of Glass. Yeah that was one useless piece of plot."Yes, that woman was killed only to show how cruel the bad guys are, but curiously enough Clary didn't *react* to an innocent person being murdered. That tells me how indifferent she is.
Well Harry did do some more than just accept it.
Maybe he did afterward, but in Sirius's death scene, he's more like: "Oh Sirius is dead!" and then.......he just went off to do other things? My memory isn't quite clear.
He had to be dragged away from the scene by Lupin and afterwards he ran after Bellatrix since it was her spell that catapulted Sirous into the "Gate". During the pursuit he fired that curse at her and when it was only temporary she mocked him for it.
Okay, that sounds like a normal reaction.
That is the most ironic about Harry Potter, despite his unusual upbringing and the later praise at Hogwarts all of this changed rather quickly after his first year and so he remained relatively normal. I think it was a good idea by Rowling to show downsides to Harry's fame as well as upsides.
Well, to be honest I don't like Harry, I especially dislike how everything has to be about him. Plus I think Rowling was being silly when she decided to base Harry's fame on his parents' murder. (Okay, I know Harry doesn't want this kind of fame, but Rowling's decision on that part damaged the series in my eyes)
Well the first book was the silliest of them all in my eyes. And his fame wasn't really because of the murder but because he had survived, which led most people to believe that there was something special about him. Although that backfired in the second and especially fourth and fifth book. In either case you can give JKR credit for getting through with it and not do a retcon or simply forgetting stuff. And although the ending was a bit campy I think it was the most likely and believable since someone as smart as Voldemort probably could only fail due to his own arrogance and hubris. But as with Harry and Clary, Valentine is only a bad copy of Voldemort.
Andre wrote: "And his fame wasn't really because of the murder but because he had survived, which led most people to believe that there was something special about him."That's the silliest part of the entire series, for the life in me, I can't believe any adult would believe a baby can survive the big bad villain's attack because there's something oh-so special about him. It's not Jesus Christ we're talking about here, you know.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the wizards to guess "Maybe Harry's parents did something to save their son..."?
But Rowling makes it sound like the wizards had never ever thought about that, which I guess means her wizards are a bunch of idiots.
Although that backfired in the second and especially fourth and fifth book.
How does it backfired? I don't get what you mean.
In either case you can give JKR credit for getting through with it and not do a retcon or simply forgetting stuff.
Well, when you compare Rowling with Clare, of course Rowling would be ways better.
Many wizards are a bunch of idiots in the series, I think she wrote them deliberately that way and also how they had practically built a cult around him. But on the other side there were as many who did not believe that he was so special but considered him lucky. Either way, many were unnerved simply by the fact that he was still alive since on average no one who was targeted by Voldemort lived afterwards. That was probably the reason why stories circulated about him and he was rarely seen as an actual person. In that way he can be lucky he befriended Ron and Hermione, they and Ron's family apparently straightened him out some more.In the second book his fame and all the myths backfired since it was revealed he could speak parseltongue, the ability to speak with snakes, something you are born with and that is associated with dark magic in general, good old prejudice. And therefore the theory came up that he was a potentially powerful dark wizard as well and Voldemort wanted to kill him to get rid of competition. People thought Harry was the heir of Salazar Slytherin and was attacking the people in the castle.
In book four and five it starts with Rita Skeeter's articles about him, which extend into the Ministry of Magic's smear campaign against him in book five as part of their campaign against Albus Dumbledore and his followers who are convinced that Voldemort is back, while many in the ministry denied that. They used his story to sprinkle a few comments here and there into articles to discredit him publically, which worked very well actually. In the same book it is revealed that in fact the prophecy about him was not really about him but could have been about Neville Longbottom since both boys fit the criteria stated in it and Harry for a moment suggested that Neville was meant and not him. But that was not it, since like the prophecy stated Voldemort himself would mark said boy as an equal and he chose half-blood Harry and not pureblood Neville, despite Voldemort believing only purebloods have the right to life. You see in the world of HP a boy born from one muggleborn parent is still a half-blood and as such Voldemort saw himself in Harry (since he is a halfblood as well) and thought Harry was a potential future threat that would be as or maybe more powerful then him since the prophecy stated that both would face each other, albeit Voldemort didn't knew the full prophecy back then (the part about marking Harry), but due to his fear of a boy he had never seen he rushed to find the Potters and kill Harry before finding out more about the prophecy.
There was also the period in book four when many students thought he had somehow tricked himself into the tournament, albeit many smarter once knew he would have been crazy to do it. That book was also the first one where he was a more a puppet than ever before.
That is how all this stuff backfired.
And as for the retcon and inconsistencies, sadly that is not just something Clare is huilty of but writers who are much better as well. And I don't mean small inconsistencies but big ones.
What drives me nuts is how some people assume that because she is a fan of harry potter and wrote fan fiction about HP that she cannot possibly have her own ideas. I think that someone sprouted this crazy idea that Clare plagiarized somewhere in this crazy thing that is the internet and it just spread like the black death. Anyone want to explain how she also came up with the Infernal Devices series if she's just a plagiarizer? Because I'm really not seeing the connections to that one. Anyone who thinks they need to put down Clare as a writer is just another drama addict who wants to throw a fit about something. And also the mundie/ muggle thing. Mundie is short for mundane, you know a word whose definition is lacking interest or excitement or of this earthly world rather than a heavenly or spiritual one. What next are people gonna flip on her for using a dictionary and using a real word to accurately describe humans in her book. Oh no mundane and muggle start with the same letter, obviously thats plagiarism.
I think it's a coincidence. Just my opinion
Caitlan wrote: "What drives me nuts is how some people assume that because she is a fan of harry potter and wrote fan fiction about HP that she cannot possibly have her own ideas. I think that someone sprouted thi..."You really should not try and defend Clare by using the Infernal Devices, especially Clockwork Angel has the same basic plot and set of characters and plot devices City of Bones had.
And for the similarities to HP to be a coincidence there would have to be much less similarities and apparently neither of you two noticed the similarities to all the other famous titles of the last 20 years. HP is really not the only thing.
Andre wrote: "Caitlan wrote: "What drives me nuts is how some people assume that because she is a fan of harry potter and wrote fan fiction about HP that she cannot possibly have her own ideas. I think that some..."Can you really name any significant similarities that you could not also liken to another book? I've read the Harry Potter series and Mortal Instruments series multiple times each and I'm completely lost on what exactly people are throwing this fit about.
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What would be the funniest review?"
OMG, it would be quite a task to choose...