Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
discussion
If you've read Mortal Instruments you'll find this interesting...
Honestly don't most YA books have similar storylines and characteristics!?
So? The relevance of that is what precisily? That they are all so similar does not mean that it is ok, it means that the other authors are equally bad. And no, e.g. Percy Jackson and HP, to name only 2 very popular examples, do not follow the storyline of TMI and TID. Also their protagonists are a whole lot more believable and competent.
TMI and TID follow the following YA formula:
girl meets boy -> boy is some supernatural being -> boy is an asshole -> they both fall in love -> some people cause trouble and are easily defeated -> end
Andre wrote: "TMI and TID follow the following YA formula:girl meets boy -> boy is some supernatural being -> boy is an asshole -> they both fall in love -> some people cause trouble and are easily defeated -> end"
Still does not mean it is plagiarized. It's like saying, oh, ALL these YA books are set in America, that's plagiarism because other stories have that country in them. But then, how many people live in America? A lot. So it is still not plagiarism.
Exactly like there are many books with vampires in them, and you cannot say that they are all plagiarized from say Twilight or Dracula just because they have the same species in them. And no one "owns" the 'YA formula' you suggested because it is not possible to own.
The typical apologist approach: others have certain generic element too so its ok.Also I said nothing about "owning" and the formular was in clear connection to the paragraph before, showing that not all YA books follow the same formular.
This is just my opinion and I'm not saying this to make anyone mad. But why can't people like both? I personally think they are very different stories and very different worlds. I read books to get lost in a different world and i loved them both.
This was never about liking both or neither, so I have no idea why you would even suggest that topic.It is about the obvious similarities to HP and other popular works of the last decade or so. And they are so numerous that it is very hard to believe that this is a coincidence.
I was just saying that I like both because even if they have some similarities it doesn't matter. I feel most YA books are similar. I'm not sure why your getting so defensive I'm not trying to start anything. I'm just voicing my opinion.
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Heidi wrote: "I was just saying that I like both because even if they have some similarities it doesn't matter. I feel most YA books are similar. I'm not sure why your getting so defensive I'm not trying to star..."Just ignore them. Stating you opinion was never wrong, unless it was something different to what they had in mind.
Andre wrote: "The typical apologist approach: others have certain generic element too so its ok.Also I said nothing about "owning" and the formular was in clear connection to the paragraph before, showing that..."
You just cancelled out your own argument in one post. You suggested that the "formular" was and was not plagiarizing.
Come on guys, does there really need to be another discussion about this? Now, don't get me wrong, everyone can post and say what they want, but, really, this topic again? I'm sure you could compare any two book series and find similarities. I've read books that have had things such as gamekeepers, which of course reminds me of Hagrid, but, hey, even though J.K. Rowling is all kinds of awesome, she doesn't own the job of making people gamekeepers. Also, I don't get why there's a lot of fuss about the Draco Trilogy. Like someone said before, how did Cassandra plagiarize if it was fanfic? That's basically what fanfic is. I'm also pretty certain if there was evidence of her plagiarizing Harry Potter within TMI, then surly her agent or publisher would've picked up on that and said, "Hey, you know we can't use this, right?" But, obviously, that didn't happen. I mean, to say that TMI is a carbon copy of Harry Potter (and maybe that's not what people are claiming, maybe just pointing about things that are thought to be too similar) just because Ginny and Clary have red hair or Jace and Malfoy are both snarky . . . lots of characters can have a leading female with red hair, or a sarcastic male that just happens to be blond. No one has to love TMI, any more than they have to love Harry Potter. I know the threat of someone copying J.K. Rowling's work stirs up ruckus within the Potter fandom, and I can see why, but there are going to be similar stories everywhere. I personally find Percy Jackson to be a bit like HP. But, then it has other elements that completely separate the two. No one plagiarized, or copied. They just had an idea. And to have an author create that idea and put his or herself out there . . . that's a pretty great feat, and something that I think earns respect. When you read something someone wrote, it's like seeing inside them . . . and getting a little taste of who they are. And even if we don't mean to be, when we bash, we might, unknowingly, be a little hurtful. I'm guilty of this, too. I'm not saying we can't express our opinions, but to just make sure we give substance behind them. There's more to books than just the skeleton of the story. There are emotions, actions, and development. And I think that's what we really need to look at.
Katie wrote: "Come on guys, does there really need to be another discussion about this? Now, don't get me wrong, everyone can post and say what they want, but, really, this topic again? I'm sure you could comp..."
You three make no sense whatsoever. Typical apologists.Yo haven't even provided evidence for your statements, we critcis did, but you did not.
All you three have said so far is just "all books have similarities" as though that makes any difference.
So provide evidence for once, then your statements will be considered valid, if not, forget it. This is a discussion threat and simply throwing out your opinions is not part of a discussion.
Andre wrote: "and simply throwing out your opinions is not part of a discussion."That is exactly what you're doing. And we have excellent arguments, you just don't want to listen to them.
I have to "listen" to them everytime I come hear. And all you are saying is basically this:All books have similarities.
Someone would have sued Clare by now.
That seems to be all there is. And that is not excellent.
And her books do not only have similarities with Harry Potter but also with Buffy, Underworld, Twilight, The Vampire Chronicles, Star Wars and who knows what else. It goes from concepts, to plot points, to names and behavior.
This is more than just some similarities, and considered how much she basically copies her own characers over an over again, doesn't lend credit to her being an original writer. CoB and CA even have the same basic plot and the main characters could just as well be the same. All this lends support for the statement that CoB is just Clare copying her own earlier work.
Since TMI and TID link up to each other in the end, they can't possibly have the same storyline until they do link up which is meant to happen sometime. And you say we have limited arguments?
Well, you only have one argument "she's copying off of other books. She should be sued."
We're not the ones that have basically nothing new to say.
I sad CoB and CA have the same basic plot, not TMI and TID, that is a difference.And Clare is not just copying other books, she is basically copying herself as well as films, unless you consider Underworld and Star Wars as books, sure the franchise has books but it started as films.
And if you have new things to say and find me ignorant, enlighten me.
Alright, what evidence do you want? Evidence whether her agent or publisher said, "Hey, we can't use this?" You know, as well as I do, I can't provide that. I don't know Cassie Clare or her agents, I'm just hoping that if she did something so drastic than it would have been caught before it was put on the shelves. I've read both series (or all three if you count ID) and have absolutely loved them. I don't see how Cassie copied anything from J.K. The only similarity I would run into is that the main characters are both thrust into a world that is unknown to them. After that it ends, because the circumstances in which there lives were changed were different. Harry got a letter and a choice. Clary lost her mom and saw no other choice but to get her back. So I'm sorry if I can't enlighten you. I guess someone like me, whom you don't even know, cannot ever hope to be at the caliber that you consider yourself to be at.
I am asking for evidence based on the books. Show evidence from there that support your claim that these topics, stories and plots are truly her own. It is possible that she could have come up with it on her own, but considered the number of similarities that seems unlikely. Also her books don't just have so much from Harry Potter but also from the other titles I mentioned above.Compare these fictions with Clare's books and tell me that they are not noticeably similar in topics, plot and other elements.
Thank you, that is actually a valid point. Out of the titles you've mentioned I've read Harry Potter and Twilight, so I suppose it is possible that I'm missing something. The only thing similar with HP that I can recall when reading is when Clary, Jace, and Alec are going to Taki's and Clary thinks she sees a demon, but Jace says it's an ifrit which is a warlock without powers. That did make me think of squibs, but, to me, that's not a giant point. Things that I've read from TMI that I've never read anywhere else is the concept of runes and putting them on Shadowhunters' bodies to create different assets. I don't know if you've read the rest of the books in TMI, but I also have never heard of Silent Brothers or the Iron Sisters. There are especially interesting things in CoFA and CoLS with Jace's connection to Sebastian and the special rune that does that, and the way in CoLS how Magnus, Simon, Isabelle, Alec find out how to sever that connection. As for Twilight, I really see no similarities at all. I think TMI is a better written novel for one thing, and Cassie's vampires are different from Stephenie's. I only vaguely remember watching the Buffy T.V. show, so I can't compare there. I mean, most descriptions of vampires are that they're pale, have superhuman abilities, and burnt by the sun. But, I thought Cassies did a cool twist when in CoA (by the way these next points will be spoilers if you haven't read past CoB) the sun concept no longer applies to Simon because he drank Jace's blood and, in CoG we find out Jace isn't Valentine's bio son, but Valentine altered his birth so he now had angel blood in his veins, not demon, and then that turned out to be what saved Simon. Little better of an attempt?
I will agree that the books are similar, but that doesn't mean that Clare copied JKR. Clare came up with her own ideas like Shadowhunters using runes to provide special abilities. In HP there are is no mention of the glamour that Shadowhunters use to disguise themselves. The settings are completely different, from an isolated castle in London to crowded NYC. As TMI progressed it got more unique. I just don't see how angels and demons are being compared to wizards.
"And not only are both the Deathly Hallows three items, but also the Mortal Instruments but instead they are like some other items from the Potterverse: Mirror (Erised), Cup (Helga Huffelpuff's cup) and Sword (the sword of Griffindor)."City of Bones was first published March 27th 2007, almost four full months before The Deathly Hallows' first publication on July 21st 2007 and since the nature, number, and even the names of Hallows weren't even mentioned until the seventh book, it's doubtful that the Mortal Instruments had any relation to the Hallows. Plus the fact that the Hallows are all about cheating death, whereas the Mortal Instruments are about safely summoning Raziel and asking him for one request. They do have some similarities like how each of the three items has its own power separate from the power all three have together, which is pretty cool.
As for the mirror,cup, and sword, there are stories other than (and older than) Harry Potter that involve items like that: The Mirror in Snow White, the Holy Grail, and Excalibur for example. The Mirror of Erised shows you your heart's greatest desire, but the Mortal Mirror (not sure if that's the official name for it or not) when combined with the other Instruments gets you one request from Raziel, which could be used to grant your heart's greatest desire. Hufflepuff's Cup was used to hold a chunk of Voldemort's soul, but the Mortal Cup is used to create Shadowhunters. I don't know of any specific powers the sword of Gryffindor has (other than that it presents itself to true Gryffindors) but the Mortal Sword on its own forces the Shadowhunter that holds it to tell the truth.
I assumed that cassandra clare drew the cup, sword and mirror from Japanese lore. Those are the three holy objects of the Shinto religion that were used by gods and goddesses.
Katie wrote: "Thank you, that is actually a valid point. Out of the titles you've mentioned I've read Harry Potter and Twilight, so I suppose it is possible that I'm missing something. The only thing similar wi..."Actually the similarities with Harry Potter have less to do with Deathly Hallows but rather with what came before. Since there is a character limit here I will for now only post the more obvious examples:
There is the cup, sword and mirror in TMI and they are similar to the Griffindor Sowrd, the mirror Erised and the house cup or triwizard cup. Although it could come from the Shinto religion as Julianna suggested. Not so unlikely considered that someone like Jem seems rather like a guy from a Japanese manga than a half-Chinese guy born and raised in Post Opium War China.
In addition there are the steles which look like wands and pretty much act like wands as well; they clearly are not just there for drawing runes.
But there is more, the description of the Silent Brothers, their cloaks, their faces and the way they move is quite similar to the dementors. In addition Valentine with his circle, pure mania and fear he generates is reminiscent of Voldemort, except that in Voldemort's case I believe that he creates this level of fear since he had created a reign of terror prior to his downfall while Valentine was just a rebel, plus both were assumed dead but weren't really. And while both despise non-humans they are clearly willing to use them if it serves their goals.
Furthermore the Circle is in its devotion to Valentine and their outlook on things similar to the Death Eaters in Harry Potter, actually the basic look of the Lightwoods is similar to that of the Lestranges.
Then there are other similarities:
Demon Pox sounds similar to Dragon Pox from HP, except that Dragon Pox doesn't transform you as Demon Pox seems to have done with Benedict Lightwood.
Furthermore there are names like Eloisa Ravenscar, a name so unusual but yet sounding so similar to Helena Ravenclaw it is difficult for me not to see a connection. Also Luke seems like a mixture of Lupin and Snape with his background and powers. And his actual name is Lucien Greymark, which is at once reminiscent of the name Greyback from Harry Potter (btw there is the similarity between the names Harry and Clary) but also Lucien the first 3rd generation Lycan from Underworld.
And there is the next point: the vampire werewolf rivalry is just there because the demons they originated from hated each other. Supposedly it is instinctual and this is reminiscent of Underworld, especially the third film since there the Lycans had no actual reason attacking the vampires. In addition vampires and Lycans descended from two brothers who were at "war" since the werewolf one could not control his rage. And from the outside this would look like demons at war. Werewolves in TMI even have higher rage than humans, similar to Underworld. I am not counting vamp werewolf powers since barely any author tries to think of new ones. However that vampires and werewolves descend from demons in a fashion similar to a disease is the case in Buffy also. They also have the similarities that vampires in Buffy and TID burn very fast. The first time we see a vampire burn in Buffy was at the start of season 2 when that one vampire "priest" was set aflame with only a single torch, similarly fast to the vampire women in Clockwork Angel. Also demons coming from other dimensions is also reminiscent of Buffy. Of course the concept of the Daywalker is nothing new and the series The Legacy had vampires that could walk in the sun due to a special potion.
Also vampire teeth coming out because of sexual arousal is reminiscent of the Southern Vampire mysteries. And Clare's way of making vampires seems like a combination of features from these books as well as Buffy.
And speaking of vampires, the vampires in the Clareverse are all attractive, nearly all pale, have poreless skin and Camille's (whose name is similar of Carmilla) was even likened to porcelain. Most are shown in high society-like circles and described as into drama. This is reminiscent of both Twilight and Anne Rice's vampire chronicles who feature vampires of similar look and class.
And speaking of Twilight: Jace is constantly described as physically perfect, has golden eyes, slim hands and plays the piano. He even watches Clary in her sleep and glosses through her private stuff (her sketchbook) without permission. This sounds similar to Edward Cullen. And not just Edward, Jace also has physical similarities with the main character of Angel Sanctuary whom some pictures depict with blond hair and golden eyes. And the way his "incestuous" feelings drive him nuts sounds like a slightly watered down version of the feelings in Angel Sanctuary, except that Clare does not go all the way unlike the comic.
Of course humans having angel blood in them or an actual pretty heroin that thinks she is not pretty is nothing new also, but I will not comment on this since it is simply too generic. Warlocks being the offspring of demons however is not so widely used and was featured in both Top Cow and Marvel comics.
And what supernatural creature Clare has are also far from original.
But back to more fitting examples:
A house that moves around and whose door opens to different locations, that sounds like Howl's moving castle.
Also I don't think I have to spell out what "warriors in black protecting mankind against alien threads" reminds me of.
There is more, but this are the most obvious examples I can think of right now. The thing is that every detail for itself would not be a problem, that always happens, but these are so many and in combination that it should in my eyes at least cause raised eyebrows.
If you need clarification on whether or not Clare did or did not plagarize read this article. http://theweek.com/article/index/2485...
Thank you, thank you so much. At least a spark of hope.And damn Clare didn't even get a new name? Even that is from fanfiction?
And I can just say to all who read this article: follow the links, you will not regret it.
Oh, by the way, I think it's kind of pathetic Cassandra Clare didn't even bother to come up with an original title for her published work. The Mortal Instruments was also the title of a Ron/Ginny fanfiction she wrote. Lol. http://fanlore.org/wiki/Cassandra_Claire
Also, I think JKR didn't sue because she is gracious, and simply above that. All she wants to do is write, so I can't blame her for ignoring the whole disaster.
Oh, and CC is known to sue if her plagiarist past is brought up in articles and whatnot, so people can't call her out on that without being accused of slander or s/t.
And once again, I'm surprised that her fans of Goodreads simply deny all valid evidence. Everywhere else on the internet, CC is known and infamous for all the fanwank she pulled, but here on GR, people try to ignore all the facts.
On an unrelated nore, I'm so gleefull that the movie adaption of CoB is doing badly. Hopefully it will take CC down a notch.
It sounds like they've got the classical case of, "My favourite author can do no wrong." But with fans of CC's, it's really weird because there is a lot of evidence and claims that clearly show that she has done wrong -- the plagiarism and bullying and so on.
I think that is very likely, considered what other opinions I heard were stated despite evidence to the contrary I sadly have no problems believing that many fans are at the state you mentioned.inga wrote: "On an unrelated nore, I'm so gleefull that the movie adaption of CoB is doing badly. Hopefully it will take CC down a notch. "
I would not count on it, especially not since there are rumors of a sequel being in development.
Izzy wrote: "It sounds like they've got the classical case of, "My favourite author can do no wrong." But with fans of CC's, it's really weird because there is a lot of evidence and claims that clearly show th..."
Authors are no saints, they are humans and they can do wrong. In Clare's case, things had gone terribly wrong. Why people just can't see it, even when the evident is right before you?
Andre wrote: "I think that is very likely, considered what other opinions I heard were stated despite evidence to the contrary I sadly have no problems believing that many fans are at the state you mentioned.i..."
Yes, they are in preperations for the sequel, but it might get cancelled if CoB won't do well.
The production value for CoB was $60 million, and another $60 million for marketing abroad. However, the movie only made $3 million on the day of its release, and is estimated not to be a huge success in the USA. If it won't do much better world-wide, I wouldn't bet on them actually shooting the sequel.
inga wrote: "If it won't do much better world-wide, I wouldn't bet on them actually shooting the sequel. ."So let's pray it wouldn't do well worldwide.
Hopefully, since sadly some other bad movies did do well enough worldwide and god knows there are lots of Clarefans out there.By the way does anybody know how many the movie was estimated to should have made on the day of release?
It was estimated to rake in 17.5 million but I think overall it raked in 11 million (i'm not very sure though).
@Andre:I heard that they expected 13 million.
Mizuki wrote: "@Andre:I heard that they expected 13 million."
Damn, that means the film might actually bring in enough money to make a sequel.
Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "@Andre:I heard that they expected 13 million."
Damn, that means the film might actually bring in enough money to make a sequel."
sadly it seems like the case!
Darth Vader mode: NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^^
Andre wrote: "Darth Vader mode: NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!^^"
And you know what, even the Young Post page of the local english newspaper fails to say anything good about the CoB movie! You can tell how sucky the movie really is by it!
Is there a link to that newspaper article?
Andre wrote: "Is there a link to that newspaper article?"I will scan the short article tomorrow.
^_^I notice that critics and non-fans of Clare have been doing some happy dance this week.
Mizuki wrote: "^_^I notice that critics and non-fans of Clare have been doing some happy dance this week."
Small surprise considered that she gave them so much to work with.
Andre wrote: "Small surprise considered that she gave them so much to work with."Well, I'm enjoying the happy dance from the non fans and critics anyway.
Andre wrote: "Try this:http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_m..."
that Parental Guidance isn't the funniest review I have read, but oh goodness, the writer seems to think YA=bad quality.=__=
Well since that would fit the thread:What would be the funniest review?
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What's dragon pox? I've heard of DEMON POX! though.