Wild Things: YA Grown-Up discussion

Well said Alexis. I am suprised that 6th graders were encouraged to read Animal Farm. There isn't really a lot of content in AF like sex or drugs (at least not that I remember) that would make it a little old for that age group, but I can't really see an 11-12 year old really understanding most of the main points to that novel. It is definitely a satire of Communist Russia, and I did enjoy the novel, but it isn't something that I can really see someone that young liking, and understanding. I have a brother going into 5th grade, and one going into 8th, and I can't really see either one of them really getting, or enjoying AF.

I think I am coming across wrong! My kids love to read, and of course I encourage them like crazy.

My biggest fear, is not them encountering something inappropriate, because they are great at asking questions, and we can talk very openly about almost anything. What upsets me more, and I see it more, now that I read comments on GRs, is kids being pushed towards books they just can't understand or grasp. Most 12 year olds don't really care about sex/love stories.

They end up reading them, and often, hating them. That's such a waste in my opinion.

Animal Farm isn't explicit, but it IS satire, and I do think it's above the typical 6th grader's understanding. What a tragedy for them to read it, not understand, be bored, and end up hating such an enlightening book.

I read everything my boys read for school with them. That way we can talk about any uncomfortable issues. So far they love it and it even encouraged them to finish it when they otherwise would have wanted to bail out on it. They love knowing we can complain together if its that bad. And I always read what they recommend. I've HATED some books, but I read them all and we talk about it. It's very revealing to find out why they like something when I can't stand it. :)

Fiona wrote: "I think they need to split YA up - younger YA and older YAor books for confident readers.

I think they will one day because the YA market has become a lot more popular and the line between YA/adul..."

There basically is a split. After childrens (which has easy readers and all that), there comes Juvenile, then YA. So must young teens are still in the j section, while most YA is targeted at around 14-15 and up. Not that younger readers don't make their way over. I was reading YA and Adult when I was 12...

Alexis (gorgeous library, by the way), I think you are right about Peeps. It's a bit more graphic, but never too pushy. As for AF in 6th grade, whether it's graphic or too mature, I don't know, but I don't see how 11 and 12 year olds would get it.
I recently came across a post on Amazon from a teacher asking what people thought about teaching
The Giver to a class of 10 year olds. Responses were very varied.

Back to random dystopic fiction, I am reading The Knife of Never Letting Go, and though the quasi-stream-of-consciousness sometimes irritates me (mor efor repeition than anything, cause the style actually suits the story), I am finding it really interesting and though-provoking. Since I am not finished, I can't say whether anything that happens is inappropriate, but so far it seems well suited to the age group.

Kandice wrote: "I think I am coming across wrong! My kids love to read, and of course I encourage them like crazy."

Don't worry, Kandice, you're coming across as a good mom who is involved in her kids' lives. :) That's totally right.

I think the main issue is "what is YA?" Not by age, but by content, because of course all kids are different. I was in an accelerated class, so we always ended up reading things that were above our age level. Some we liked, some we didn't, but I don't recall comprehension ever being an issue. My friend read The Giver in 4th grade and loved it. I wish I had. I didn't discover it until a few years ago.

Content-wise, I would consider YA probably closer to 14 and up. Maybe 13. Misty is right, there is a division - after beginning readers, there is Young Readers/Juvenile/Middle Grade. Then there is YA/Teen. Of course kids will move outside of the recommended age groups based on ability and comprehension.

However, from working in B&N, a lot of 12 year old girls do seem to be interested in reading love stories. Or they're reading awful stuff like Gossip Girl and the Clique series.

Would y'all consider Alas, Babylon to be YA? I remember reading it when I was about 12 or 13.

It's definitely apocalyptic, though!

Back to the original thread, I read "1984", "Children of the Dust", and "On the Beach" when I was in my early teens and feel they are great YA books that fall in the dystopia an post-apocalyptic category. Very good at making you think deep and seeing the world differently.

Kathy wrote: "I read everything my boys read for school with them. That way we can talk about any uncomfortable issues. So far they love it and it even encouraged them to finish it when they otherwise would ha..."

I love that you read what they read. I have young kids 4, 2, and 0 so I'm reading to them not with them, but I'll have to remember your idea when they start school.

Heather wrote: "Brian Keaney's books Dr. Sigmundus The Hollow People and Dr. Sigmundus The Cracked Mirror are dystopian and really quick reads. They feature a societ..."

With the power, control, and corruption of pharmaceutical companies I could see this as a true reality some day. They would like nothing better than to have a drug that everyone in the world has to take for the rest of their lives.

Dan, I think you will be happy with this plan. Before I did this, my older son rarely finished a book he had to read for school, but once we set up this plan that was never an issue. Even if he hated it, he was fully prepared to argue why he hated it. and in most cases, we loved it. And with this plan, I have read several classics I missed when I was in school such as Catcher in the Rye, Pigman, and Night.

Dan, enjoy reading to and with your kids! You won't be sorry! :)

Dan wrote: "With the power, control, and corruption of pharmaceutical companies I could see this as a true reality some day. They would like nothing better than to have a drug that everyone in the world has to take for the rest of their lives."

This is the key to good dystopian fiction to me. If there is that chance that it could be real, if there is some mirror of our society, then that adds a great creepy factor.

Misty wrote: "Dan wrote: "With the power, control, and corruption of pharmaceutical companies I could see this as a true reality some day. They would like nothing better than to have a drug that everyone in the ..."

Amen!

I have just finished Life As We Knew It and am wondering if it could be considered in the topic of dystopian/utopian. It is extremely well written, from the perspective of a 16-yr. old girl, when the moon is hit by an asteroid and its orbit is changed. The book records the following year with her mother, older brother and younger brother as they try to maintain life in PA. I'm so impressed with this book and the event is definitely apocryphal. But it doesn't really have the concept of a better/worse world/existence to it.

Yes, it's definitely post-apocalyptic. I have yet to read it (though I want to) so I cant say if it fits dystopian.

I'm no librarian, but I think any book that portrays our world different than it is (for better or worse) falls into the category of a dystopia/utopia. I can't think of a post apocalyptic book out there that doesn't fall in the category.

I read Life As We Knew It a few weeks ago and nearly had a panic attack after reading it. LOL! I want to read the next books in the series and then again I don't. But I would have to agree with Dan. I think even post apocalyptic books fit in the dystopian category.

To respond to Dan, and Alyson-
I think it depends on your definition of dystopian. The way I look at it, dystopian novels need some sort of government, or structure that is trying to create the perfect utopia, and uses various negative methods to obtain it, and the very nature of their atempt to create this utopia is what causes the dystopia; think Uglies, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, The Giver/Gathering Blue, etc... However, a post-apocalyptic novel deals with the end of the world, or civilization as we know it. Think The Road, The War of the Worlds etc.
The two genres do overlap a lot. Often a government or faction will use an apocalyptic event to alter and control the society, so the post apocalyptic setting is a dystopian world, but it doesn't have to be that way. Sometimes the two can be linked together, but other times, they are two seperate things entirely.

Ashley, I think that is a very good description of dystopia.

The only thing that I would differ with you on is that I don't think that the government (or whoever) necessarily is controlling things to make them a utopia. More often I think that they are controlling things for the sheer power of it. Although maybe that makes it a utoia for themselves. LOL

Other than that though, I think yours is the best description of dystopia I've seen. :)

Ashley - I would add books like the Maze Runner by James Dashner, The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins, and The Shadow Children Series by Margaret Peterson Haddix to the list of dystopian novels. I think Forest of Hands and Teeth is a better example of your post-apocalyptic meets dystopian book. And I guess depending on where Susan Beth Pfeffer's third book goes (it will let us see where things are now going after "the end of the world event") which will define her series more. I also think because of the time lapse between the event that shifted things (in books such as The Giver, The Hunger Games, etc.) that we see them more solidly as dystopian. But great job with the distinction.

I also agree with your definitions Ashley - very well put!

Personally, I like this explanation of what a dystopia is: http://lastdystopia.blogspot.com/2010...

Also, I feel like I need to just read a really good dystopia.

April - What dystopian books have you read that you liked? Or are you still waiting for something to impress you?

I've read a lot that I've enjoyed. How I Live Now by Meg Rosoff, The Hunger Games, Forest of Hands and Teeth..etc.

I have a few that are sitting around the house, it's just a matter of getting around to reading them. My next dystopia is going to be : The House of the Scorpion by Nancy Farmer, The Knife of Never Letting Go, Brave New World, or Catching Fire.

April - Catching Fire was good but I didn't think it was quite as good as the first one. It almost felt like a space holder for the next/last book. But I still liked it. I haven't read the others on your TBR list but I liked Forest of Hands and Teeth and looking forward to the sequel. Also The Line by Teri Hall a debut author is a new one coming out in March that I want to read. And I loved the Maze Runner and can't wait for the second book to come out.

I need to pick up the Maze Runner. The Line looks great!

April - Did you see that the first chapter of the Line is on the author's website?

I've read The House of the Scorpion and Brave New World. They were both excellent, but I'm partial to any dystopia, so maybe not the most objective reader as far as that goes.

Brave New World is very interesting.

April wrote: "I've read a lot that I've enjoyed. How I Live Now by Meg Rosoff, The Hunger Games, Forest of Hands and Teeth..etc.

I have a few that are sitting around the house, it's just a matter of getting ar..."

Knife of Never Letting Go was excellent as was The Maze Runner, and Catching Fire.
I have not read the other two though...

Yah know, I wish someone would come out and say, yeah that book is terrible! It would make narrowing down what to read next so much easier. :-)


(Actually, just kidding, I'd rather have great potential books to read, than terrible potential books)

I also just read Life as we knew it and was actually having this argument with myself... is it dystopian or post-apocalyptic. Funny that the discussion is going on here. Now that I know that Knife of Never Letting Go falls within this genre I am even more excited to read it. I may have to take a second look at House of the Scorpion as well...

I just got House of the Scorpion and Knife of Never Letting Go out of the library last week - don't know which to read first. = )

Read Knife first! It's SOOO good!!

Thanks for the thoughts ladies!

I just re-read some of this discussion after being assigned this genre for the challenge (I still have not read The Knife of Never Letting Go even though it's on my shelf, so that's probably what I will read) but I am now wondering whether I should reread some of the books I read in school and hated. Most of the ones you guys mentioned-- Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, 1984, and Brave New World-- I read them all in English and didn't like any of them. I generally like this genre, so a reread on my time might leave me with a more favorable opinion of some of these classics.

I think today's dystopia (especially YA) is a different beast than the "classics." It all tended to be satire, but very serious satire, if that's not a total contradiction, so that may be why you didn't like it. Though I also think it's not always something high schoolers should be reading, just because they're not really ready for it. You have to know a little more of the world first, I think (that being said, I loved them all. But I was a warped little thing...)
I think you should go with whichever you are feeling most; you should have fun with this. But if you want to brave a reread, that's very admirable, and we often love the things we hated when they were required...

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this one, but I just read Unwind by Neal Shusterman, and WOW! I loved it! It's a freaky idea done incredibly well.
The idea behind the book is that you are allowed to 'unwind' your children between ages 13 and 18. An unwinding takes the person apart- literally. New technology allows every single part and piece to a person's body to be reused and recycled to save or improve someone else's life.
I definitely recommend it.

Ashley wrote: "I don't know if anyone has mentioned this one, but I just read Unwind by Neal Shusterman, and WOW! I loved it! It's a freaky idea done incredibly well.
The idea behind the book is that you are al..."

LOVE LOVE LOVE Unwind!! Very thought provoking. I started an individual thread for it under Fantasy/Sci-Fi for it because I liked it so much. Feel free to add your two cents there, too!!

Ok Ladies and Gents. I'm a newbie at all this, but I stumbled on to this feed and was fascinated! I am a special education teacher, I teach English to 10th grade students with learning disabilities. I would LOVE to teach Little Brother, and I would LOVE LOVE to pair it with another dystopian novel, but I’m not sure what would be appropriate for my students. I think it would be really cool to pair it with 1984, because of the connections between them, but I’m afraid it’s too racy. What do you all think? Any other suggestions for me?

BTW. I currently teach Life As We Knew It and The Dead and The Gone. I like them both very much and they are well received by students. However, I was disappointed with This World We Live In. I don’t know about anyone else….

How about The House of the Scorpion? It seems about the same level and is very, very good for discussion.

Abbi wrote: "Ok Ladies and Gents. I'm a newbie at all this, but I stumbled on to this feed and was fascinated! I am a special education teacher, I teach English to 10th grade students with learning disabiliti..."

Uglies is a really interesting book, and maybe one that your students would especially enjoy because it deals with people being "different" and how it's okay to be yourself. Definitely not racy, and I don't recall any foul language.

The Hunger Games is another pretty great action packed, good for guys or girls, dystopian book. I'd recommend it too.

Unwind is also pretty clean from what I remember and is absolutely a discussion starter. My 14 year old read it and liked it as much as I did. (He's an advanced reader.)

I haven't read Little Brother, so I am not sure how well any of these would pair up with it, but still great books!

The first thing I thought of was Snow Crash which would probably not be appropriate. At all. But a great companion book, I think (I may have even referred to Little Brother as Snow Crash lite, the YA Snow Crash). I second House of the Scorpion, though it's not really a tech dystopia like Little Brother, though it's still science based. Uglies too for the tech aspect, though you really don't begin to see it as much until Pretties.

Angela recommendations are good. Little Brother is definitely YA and does include language and sexual references as well as sex so depending on your school's view...that may or may not be appropriate.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll consider them all. I was thinking of maybe taking an old vs. new approach. Comparing what authors 30+ years ago thought the future would be like versus what's really going on now and what modern authors think the future holds. However, I'm afraid the more “classic” books may be too complicated, deep or inappropriate for my group. Maybe I should find some older short stories to do what with? Like "Harrison Bergeron" and "The Veldt" and use some of your suggestions as choice books and discuss the modern take that way. Maybe that could work? Does anyone know of any other short stories that are like that?

A short older book that I think would pair well with Little Brother is Anthem by Ayn Rand.

IIRC, it's very 'clean', so suitable for YA and not nearly as heavy-handed about her philosophy as her more famous (and huge) other books. It is much more of an 'action' story than many of the other classics of the genre, and relatively short - my copy of just the text is only about 125 pages - a good length for school reading, I think.

Anthem is similar to 1984, in that it takes place well into an established dystopian society and is about one man's struggle for individuality and personal freedom. You could say that Little Brother is a precursor to the kind of society found in Anthem.

Anyways, it is one of my favorite books of all time, and I read it on my own as a teen. My mom was taking college courses and she had to read Anthem, Lord of the Flies and some other books for the course. I of course saw them and appropriated them when she was done with them.

Just to get back to the utopia/dystopia question, I always understood that the root of 'utopia' was from the greek meaning 'no place" rather than 'good place' (if it were eutopia - like euphony). Of course the homophone adds a bit of ambiguity, but I had a utopia anthology once (now where has that book gone?) which definitely put the emphasis on the 'no place' definition. So dystopia would be a sub-genre rather than opposite.

Sorry for the etymological squiggling!

Also - "Children of the Dust"! Thank you so much whoever mentioned that! I read that so long ago and had forgotten it but I LOVED it! Now I can find it again. Sorry for the many exclamation marks, just couldn't contain my excitement...

Miranda wrote: "Just to get back to the utopia/dystopia question, I always understood that the root of 'utopia' was from the greek meaning 'no place" rather than 'good place' (if it were eutopia - like euphony). O..."

I could be very wrong about this, but my understanding of the words is more that 'no place' is what the word originally referred to/meant, but after Sir Thomas Moore published his book Utopia, people began to use the word differently. It seems to happen quite often, where people will take a word and overtime it comes to mean something else. Like the term gay... (I know, I'm sorry... It's the only word I can think of right off...) It originally meant happy, then it meant homosexual, and when I was younger, people used it almost completely interchangeablly with stupid.
Society has 'changed' the meaning of a utopia to mean a good or perfect place instead of a no place, and that is when dystopia is the opposite. Although ya, technically, going by definitions alone, it is more of a sub-genre... At least, that's the way I see it.

Maybe it could also mean that from Utopia=no place, it could become an ideally perfect society or give birth to a dystopic culture. Something like there being a choice when it comes to any situation...just musing,...


I watched like three dystopic movies all at once and got interested in the topic again

I know we talked about Life As We Knew It in this discussion earlier, I just wanted to say that the third book in that series is out now, at least in the US. I got it from the library yesterday and it continues Miranda's story. This World We Live In

Just off...I was reading somewhere margaret Atwood's is being counted as one of the top 16 dystopic books, don't know what list though, could be an internet list which also had I am legend, i mean common what's so original about that one.Did you hear what Genghis Cahn did ??