Poll

oh, and jsyk, i'll be reading all recommendations i get here! ♥

tbh i don't consider wuthering heights and jane eyre as being good examples of romance. i feel like they were more to showcase how problematic the romantic expectations and rules were in the society. for wuthering heights, cathy + heathcliff brought out the worst in each other, and it showed how the awful rules, classism, and racism were extremely damaging and literally ruined people. i would say that heathcliff didn't yearn, but instead he clung to his extremely unhealthy obsession.

for jane eyre, there's the continuous undertone that marriage is her only option if she is to be respected in any way. while there was eventual and undeniable romance for jane, her first priority was herself. could be considered a romance, and that's a valid characterisation, but i personally found it more telling about the stifled victorian culture. for me, it was less about how rochester and his pursuit of her, and more about how jane slowly came to terms with herself, balancing her worth and integrity with class structure, survival, opposition, and the constant belittlement of women.

anyways that was a lot sry! no hate to your opinions, i just wanted to share mine <333

Lucia ⋆˚꩜｡ wrote: "tbh i don't consider wuthering heights and jane eyre as being good examples of romance. i feel like they were more to showcase how problematic the romantic expectations and rules were in the societ..."

to be very honest I don't think there's a single point in which I disagree with you, with the exception that I don't believe these are mutually exclusive, I think it's how I can best frame it. I believe WH is a novel about how human nature at its extreme can be in insidious and degrading and dangerous, and about how class hierarchy can be just the same, and it is a romance novel; a dark, hard to comprehend, hard to relate to, hard to swallow romance, yet still romance. JE is absolutely about class, and womanhood, and self-discovery and growth, and it is a romance novel; a complicated, flawed, tragic romance, yet still romance. I've noticed reading more contemporary reviews and debates about both books that there's a preoccupation with separating them from their romantic genre because there is so much more beyond their romantic theme, but I think it's an exaggeration to remove them completely from their condition as romance novels, since it is undoubtedly the thread that strings all the other themes and issues together

also, no prob replying a long reply, I found it lovely ♡

maria ⋆˙♡ wrote: "Lucia ⋆˚꩜｡ wrote: "tbh i don't consider wuthering heights and jane eyre as being good examples of romance. i feel like they were more to showcase how problematic the romantic expectations and rules..."

exactly!! while wuthering heights isn't really romantic, it's still a romance, even if it's a twisted one. definitely agree with you about how it's a tale about extremes, and emily brontë does a fantastic job showing that. it's genuinely one of my favorite books because i think it illustrates how because love can be volatile and passionate, it can cross the line innto a dangerous and angry sort of obsession. the two are by no means mutually exclusive, i'd even say that they exist within each other and because of each other. you can see this to some degree in everyone who's ever been in love, but like you said, this is just brought to an extreme in wuthering heights.

and for jane eyre, i think that a very big part of her journey of finding herself is intertwined with romance. a lot of the things that she learns about who she is and what life is are taught through various relationships and interactions. for me, it resonated the most as a book about a woman discovering herself, and a large part of that is through her relationship with rochester, as well as rivers (ew i did not like him one bit he creeped me out).

i thing what sort of "triggered" me, so to speak, about this question was that i've seen both of those books labeled as being nothing but romances. a lot of the content out there dismisses the nuances of the books in favor of fixating on the relationships. when i saw your question, my initial thought was yes, there is love and relationships, but there is also so much more (based on your reply i feel like you'd agree with this)!!! that being said, it's also a mischaracterization to entirely ignore the parts of it that undoubtedly were romance.

for me, i tend to consider romance as a genre where the relationships are healthier and aspirational, so while i've always known that they are 10000000% stories about love, passion, and emotion (and it's so important that they also show some of the downfalls and effects of this as well as the beauty), i just never really categorized them as being romance if that makes any sense at all.

maria ⋆˙♡ wrote: "also, no prob replying a long reply, I found it lovely ♡"

anyways i completely agree with you as love was the driving emotion in both of these books!!

you're incredibly articulate, and it was so amazing talking with you about this. well-written books are complex and tend to affect people in different ways, so it was really nice to hear your perspective.

i absolutely adore having these kinds of conversations, and i think it's foolish to shy away from sharing different opinions, as well as things that we both agree on!! after all, how else would we grow and learn? really appreciated getting to do that with you

honestly i enjoyed this and would love to talk more about any books we've both read!!!! have an amazing night 🩷

Lucia ⋆˚꩜｡ wrote: "maria ⋆˙♡ wrote: "Lucia ⋆˚꩜｡ wrote: "tbh i don't consider wuthering heights and jane eyre as being good examples of romance. i feel like they were more to showcase how problematic the romantic expe..."

it totally makes sense! I think this would even fall into a bigger debate about whether or not "romance" is really the word to characterise them since there is what we usually call romance in general and then there is Romantism proper. but then we could also debate whether or not it can be called a love story - in WH at least - since there are so many other elements to it. I think JE is more of a proper traditional love story that a lot of people can relate to, in that element of their relationship at least

I saw a lot of reviews where people said they were creeped out by Rochester and that his behaviour was controlling, not loving, or that Jane was coerced into being in a relationship with him, and maybe that's a lot of the issue: these stories are taken too much at face value in a time (nowadays) when obviously those type of relationships are borderline immoral or fetishizing, what with the whole power dynamics of employee-employer, their class gap and all that. and I think that when someone doesn't fall in love with the characters, it becomes easier to dismiss the fact that they fell in love

(Rochester and Heathcliff in particular are characters that one can have a hard time justifying to someone who wouldn't be attracted to them at all lol they're like the boy you like but you hide from your friends because "he doesn't look good in pictures" or something lmaooooooo)

I also love discussing literature like this jghgkfjhdjg I'm having so much fun with you, thanks for writing the initial comments, I know it can be hard sometimes to reply something that feels contradicting to what someone is proposing because the internet is so hostile but I truly loved it! ( ˶ˆ꒳ˆ˵ )

angst, yearning, *and* decadent romance? to be honest i haven’t read many books that contain all of that!
i feel like the book that comes closest to this description is Anna Karenina, one of my all time favorite books. you mainly follow four characters: anna, levin, kitty, and vronsky. i’d certainly say there was a LOT of angst within anna for vronsky, and a lot of yearning within levin for kitty. i’d maybe say the romance between levin & kitty was decadent because they were so sweet.
"He stepped down, avoiding any long look at her as one avoids long looks at the sun, but seeing her as one sees the sun, without looking." is a quote that appears early on and it always makes my heart melt.