Comments on Most Interesting Magic System - page 3
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Xenophon wrote: "It's a fairly common idea among longtime F&SF fans (i.e., fen) that Dune is actually a lightly disguised fantasy. They have a point: The novel has emperors, dukes, and other nobility. The charac..."Well said, I certainly agree. In my humble opinion, the line between most fantasy and most science fiction is a fine one. Is using the force and being a jedi using a form of "magic" ? Does that make Star Wars fantasy? Stephen King's Dark Tower series is a series I would consider Fantasy. As he intended to write his own Lord of the rings tale - that assumption makes sense. Yet I find the books of this series in the science fiction section of my local library. Two perfect examples which highlight why I think that fantasy and science fiction don't stand on opposite ends of the literary genre spectrum.
The dividing line between science fiction and fantasy is fuzzy. I can't see any objective way to tell them apart, other than jargon.
Better question, Since Deanna is so adamantly opposed to Dune being considered Fantasy - Deanna why don't you explain what characteristics you consider necessary for something to be considered fantasy? Does there have to be a "quest"? Does there have to be a "magic system"? Because honestly, I really think that no matter how we define it, there will be an exception to every single attempt. If that is the case, this argument is pointless. I honestly don't mind Dune on this list. There are others which annoy me much more. **CoughTwilightCough**
FANTASY = MAGIC. Think LOTR, Wheel of Time, Elves of Shannara. (all of which are certainly examples of epic fan, and at least LOTR is high fan.) Laws of Physics need not necessarily apply, *but*certainly*may*.Science Fiction. No magic whatsoever, PHYSICS APPLIES. Technology applicable in each world is immaterial, there can be an historical SF, but futuristic SF is the most commonly found story.
Things like King's Dark Tower series, Michael Moorcock's works, and John Varley's Gaea series I consider SF/Fan - a blend of the two. Blending them is very common and likely why a lot of people are completely confused about the difference between the two. This is more what Bradbury and L. Ron (don't forget SouthPark!) called science fantasy; I think they were just being lazy with their speech/writing. I think "science fantasy" as a monniker does a grave disservice to both genres, because each has amazing offerings that have no place in the other.
re: Twi et al - I'm trying to treat those the same way I treat the twit from AK: if everyone ignores it (her), then no more press coverage will happen, and it (she) will sink into obscurity and I will be happier. It's not perfect, but I'm doing my part. ;)
All that having been said, it's just my NSHO, and yes I could be wrong. However, I promise I'll go to my grave steadfast in my opinion that dune is SF not fan, and that anyone who says otherwise is foolish.
Fantasy has to have magic? Uhhhhh....
Vampirella wrote: "After reading the comments above, I’d like to share my personal thoughts: Harry Potter series have the most interesting magical system, thus I’ve voted for them. Some claims that Harry, as the bo..."
You make a very good point. Not only is there a magic system, but it has a sense of science behind it, evolving from middieval logic to mimic modern scientific practice and theory. This is all implied in the background while the storyline is the focus. What bothers me is that there is no mention of advanced courses of study, I.e., colledge or grad school. Where do the profesor
Where do the professors earn their credentials?Thanks for listening.
I am really surprised at some of the comments here about structured magic. I have read many books with magic in use. Why does the magic have to be that way for some adults? Magic is fantasy, in my opinion, and any magical books is fascinating. Magic comes in many forms and uses; I may be stuck in my childhood, but magic medallions, rings, magic wands, and more. I like to read books about all kinds of magic. I'm just defending all types and manners of magic.
Vampirella wrote: "You've read only two plays, which are “the most popular” ones, by Shakespeare, and now you think you know it all, eh? How ridiculously sweet! I understand that you don't have "anything" to say ab...">
ah, my friend, I have read most of Shakespeare's works, I enjoy the music of his words.
Crazedgenius wrote: "I have not. But I'll make sure to read those if I ever get the chance."Eric wrote: "Nate wrote: "mercury wrote: "This list is FAILing it's job of rating books on interesting-ness of the magic system.
It's successfully rating books on popularity with readers, by which books they'..."
If we remove books that we do not think are appropriate for some of our readers, then we become just like it was in Farenheit 451. Besides, who do we think we are to choose which books stay and which are removed.
I had no idea my question about Dune would become a point of discussion. Let me clarify a couple things. First, Spice does have properties which set it above other stimulants, such as coffee or marijuana. Do either of these allow sight of the future or, (more importantly to the plot of Dune) faster then lightspeed travel? No? Then I would say that spice very well could be considered magical. Just because spice doesn't have traditional magical effects (manipulation of the elements, ability to cast spells, etc.) doesn't mean that the effects it does have aren't magical.
Yes, I consider Dune to be science fiction, which is why I brought it up in the first place, but after reevaluating my opinion, I think a valid argument could be made that it too is fantasy.
Timo wrote: "I had no idea my question about Dune would become a point of discussion. Let me clarify a couple things. First, Spice does have properties which set it above other stimulants, such as coffee or m..."
I agree with you,Timo, I think Dune is definitely not magical...but science Fiction.
Harry Potter? Seriously?I'd love someone to explain how saying the right words to make magic happen is original, complex, or in any way interesting. There must be some confusion as to what this category is actually about (i.e. people just voting for their favourite series without having read anything else).
Harrison wrote: "You make a very good point. Not only is there a magic system, but it has a sense of science behind it, evolving from middieval logic to mimic modern scientific practice and theory. This is all implied in the background while the storyline is the focus. What bothers me is that there is no mention of advanced courses of study, I.e., colledge or grad school. Where do the professors earn their credentials?"Harrison, read James Potter series by G. Norman Lippert. I highly recommend.
Bksgal51 wrote: "I am really surprised at some of the comments here about structured magic. I have read many books with magic in use. Why does the magic have to be that way for some adults? Magic is fantasy, in my opinion, and any magical books is fascinating. Magic comes in many forms and uses; I may be stuck in my childhood, but magic medallions, rings, magic wands, and more. I like to read books about all kinds of magic. I'm just defending all types and manners of magic."As to a number of above comments equalizing magic with fantasy, or violently disagreeing with it, please keep in mind the name of this list.
This list is about 'Most Interesting Magic System'. See the word 'system' in there? So please try to rate books on the basis of whether it contains a well-structured magic 'system', not popular, glittery, inexplicable magic. Try not to vote for random magical occurrences in books that you love.
Of course, there will be books that you and I all love, with epic fantasy where the grand wizard just drops in to save the day with a last-moment spell. It is awesome fantasy, there is fascinating magic in it. Also books with magical medallions, rings, and such artifacts where no one knows whence such power came from. But is it in a well-defined 'system'?
Discussions about the nature of magic, the differences between SF and fantasy, are extremely interesting, and I love to read them in the comments. It would be foolish to even suggest they be moved elsewhere just because they are irrelevant to the name of the list, because they are actually related, and should be discussed in the comments section of the list. However, the actual list isn't simply about fantasy, nor is it simply about magic, but about a systematic usage of it.
The list should actually do its job listing books on whether they actually have a magic 'system', not books having just magic without a 'system' or simply books that are extremely popular and do not contain a milligram of magic. Readers view lists to discover new books of the type they are looking for, so lists need to be exact. I do not have the right to demand for the removal of books that certain people voted for just because I think they do not belong in the list. But I can ensure that these certain books do not come right to the top (and mislead people to believe they contain what they actually do not), simply by not voting for them.
So, while voting for the books on the list, please keep in mind the name of this list, and ensure that the books which actually have a 'system' stay on top, it being the primary function of this list. Apart from that, one is free to vote for their favorite books which contain magic, if not in a well-structured 'system', and then discuss them in the comments. In short, what I mean to say is: "Please keep the list true to its name, discuss everything else in the comments."
No offence intended to anyone...
The Black Magician Series by Trudi Canavan, whilst a decent magic system, was not as good as the Age of the Five. I loved the idea of the Wilds. Not defined certainly, but definitely more intriguing.
wait, isn't bartimaeus on this list? i thought i had voted on it... if its not it deserves to be
Eric wrote: "I don't think Harry Potter belongs on this list because the magic system in that world is not rigidly defined. Basically anything can happen at any time, there's no limitations on the powers of th..."As far as my memory goes,Kids are not allowed to cast spells.Magic can be performed and practiced only after a certain age because the ministry of magic does not allow it?While i agree that there are not many rigid rules,things are not really all that random in the HP world.Like some of them pointed out,casting certain spells needs experience and strength.Ex:If a kid casts the Avada Kedavra........nothing would happen!
Basically HP does belong in a list like this.
P.S:I would put The Bartimeaus trilogy much higher on that list.It remains one of the best books i have read.
Patrick wrote: "David wrote: "Harry Potter's magic system is the most interesting?! Those Potter fans really ought to read more fantasy books. How is waving a wand and saying some words "interesting"? It's the mos..."I love Harry Potter, too, but still. There really Is no limit. You can just learn some Latin and do almost whatever you want. Someone said that not everyone can do every spell, which is true, but J.K. Rowling never explains why they can't do every spell. It just mysteriously doesn't work.
Ian wrote: "It is exceedingly difficult for me to pick any one magical system as the most unique. The best magical systems are those that are integrated fluidly, consistently and, as ridiculous as it might sou..."I love Brandon Sanderson books!
Anyone closely following this discussion would greatly appreciate the following post, which very closely outlines the bone of contention of this very discussion... A glimpse at what Mr. Sanderson himself has to say about it...
Following are links to two enlightening posts by my favorite author: Brandon Sanderson. They appear on his website and relate to the very matter of this discussion. Everyone interested in this discussion, please read the complete posts in order, and comment...1. http://brandonsanderson.com/article/4...
2. http://brandonsanderson.com/article/1...
I love FMA, but it's not magic. It's a science, and Edward is constantly reminding the reader of that.
Alchemy isn't a science. It's a magical system with an organized and specific framework on how it functions.
So I see American Gods on it and am shaking my head. Read the book, if you had asked me about the magic system, I'd say "what magic?". What is has is fantasy elements, not a magic system. If you thought Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings had vague magic systems, they still have more than you learn about anything related to magic in American Gods.Speaking of which, Lord of the Rings does not belong on this list either. It really doesn't do anything to describe the magic system, and it's one of the most vague systems on the planet. Sanderson, who wrote laws about magic systems, and has the top entry on the list (rightfully so), has pointed out in Writing Excuses that the system they use in LotR is at the end of the spectrum. There's basically nothing there; Gandalf does a couple of things, they never explain any of it.
Harry Potter falls much into this as well, which is really quite sad, given that it's built around a world where magic is very important. They really don't give you anything to it, they tell you that you can cast these spells, but nobody really knows much of anything. Get the proper wand, wave your hand, you've got light. Wave your hand, say a couple words, now a lock is unlocked, or something is floating. Say a different couple of words, you've now killed someone. Can you cast infinite spells? Do you need something to be able to cast different spells, or is it all about just knowing? And what makes a wizard more powerful? Is it knowing more spells? Is it being able to fight with the dark arts? Then what of those that don't perform dark arts? It's really so vague, we have a million questions and basically no answers. You can tell it was made for young adults, because she literally wrote it knowing a large portion of readers wouldn't care or question anything.
Is The Lightning Thief considered magic?Deleted for not having magic:
The Host by Stephanie Meyer
Twilight by Stephanie Meyer
mercury wrote: "This list is FAILing it's job of rating books on interesting-ness of the magic system. It's successfully rating books on popularity with readers, by which books they've actually read and are fami..."
That's fine if you don't agree with other people's choices, but that doesn't mean the list is failing; it's not just your list, and you're not the only one with a valid opinion of what constitutes an interesting magic system. For you, Harry Potter doesn't have the most interesting system. Other people think it does, and there's nothing wrong with either view.
Laura wrote: "Is The Lightning Thief considered magic?Deleted for not having magic:
The Host by Stephanie Meyer
Twilight by Stephanie Meyer"
The LT has some magic but most of the demigods aren't inherently magical in the sense that they can cast spells (well not all of them, just the daughters of Hecate) and only the most powerful demigods can control the elements or revive the dead, abilities that would definitely be considered magical if cast in an ancient fantasy setting rather than the urban fantasy of TLT.
The Numenera novels will definitely have to go on this list once they come out. Interesting blur between fantasy and scifi, too.
Nerija wrote: That's fine if you don't agree with other people's choices, but that doesn't mean the list is failing; it's not just your list, and you're not the only one with a valid opinion of what constitutes an interesting magic system. For you, Harry Potter doesn't have the most interesting system. Other people think it does, and there's nothing wrong with either view.
I strongly disagree with your fashionable relativism. People who read more fantasy have a more profound opinion on what constitutes an interesting magic system than do people who read Harry Potter and maybe LotR and that's it. Both have no magic system worth mentioning compared to other works and I don't even count myself among the real fantasy geeks. BTW, this doesn't diminish their overall quality or depth in other areas. Nobody ever said that a good book, not even a fantasy book, has to have a good magic system.
I am just so happy that Mistborn is now at the top of this list. It deserves to be there.
Christian wrote: "People who read more fantasy have a more profound opinion on what constitutes an interesting magic system than do people who read Harry Potter and maybe LotR and that's it. Both have no magic system worth mentioning compared to other works, and I don't even count myself among the real fantasy geeks. BTW, this doesn't diminish their overall quality or depth in other areas. Nobody ever said that a good book, not even a fantasy book, has to have a good magic system."
I very much agree with Christian. One holds a profound opinion as to what constitutes a magic system. And just because certain books have magic, but not systematic magic, doesn't mean they aren't good books! They certainly are, just do not belong in this list...
Bobby wrote: "I am just so happy that Mistborn is now at the top of this list. It deserves to be there."Quite deserving...
Xenophon wrote: "I think Harry Potter doing so well is a function of reader inexperience and the popularity of the series. To those of us who have been reading fantasy for years, Harry Potter is fun but nothing that special."Well put.
Bobby wrote: "Xenophon wrote: "It's a fairly common idea among longtime F&SF fans (i.e., fen) that Dune is actually a lightly disguised fantasy. They have a point: The novel has emperors, dukes, and other nobi..."Actually, there's a mostly unknown name of a genre called speculative fiction. This is a pretty wide genre, because it includes fantasy, sf, and dystopian, which I think is a misnamed genre anyway. In Orson Scott Card's book about writing speculative fiction, he talks about how hard the line is to define.
Additionally, when some people (I don't think you) say that magic isn't science, they are completely wrong. A well-thought out magic system will be like a science, just one that has additional rules to our science systems.
Really, before we decide what is magic, magic system, fantasy, science fiction, divine power and the matrix etc, we should remove books from the same series that don't experience a change in the magical system, I mean the seven books of harry potter, the 3 of mistborn, the three of his dark material plus the omnibus... it's just nonsensical and clogs the list with unnecessary repetition. I say that we should put the omnibuses when they exist or just the first book of some specific series,also, for the series already there delete all the books except the one with higher votes so it is represented by the most voted, though I believe we would need a new list with new rules and a definition of the stuff mentioned above as first comment if we want to see any organization. Sorry for any bad spelling.
and dudes, science (at least the hard sciences) need mathematical formulation and should give really precise results, magic shouldn't have the mathematical equations nor the predictability( for example in NoTW we know generally what one can accomplish with sympathy but we don't have a unit to measure their concentration and as such can't predict the exact effect of any use of sympathy.
Librarians are supposed to use a light hand in removing books. I believe deleting books to satisfy someone's organizational preferences is going too far.
Give me a good reason to keep all the books of a series in this context. I mean we are rating the magical system, if it remains unchanged adding so many books will make the list far huger and more confusing, specially because the books from the same series are sometimes one or more pages apart even though they share the same magical system.
I'm glad to see Mistborn on top. It was refreshing to see such an original magic system.
Just want to say at least the top spot is given to something worthy. Mistborn's magic system was unlike anything else I'd ever read. Sanderson has a bit of a knack for that. Elantris has a unique (if not as interesting and exciting as Mistborn) system as well.
Kinda disappointed that the "Black Sun Rising" series didn't make it on here. Probably makes my top 3 magic systems I've ever seen/read.
Why is The Selection here? There's no magic in it O_o
As for magic system, nothing surpasses the huge Malazan world. Elder warrens, holds, otataral, Deck of dragons..............by far the BEST. No questions asked..........
Um. Many of you have apparently not read the Harry Potter series. Casting a spell not only requires knowing the word(s) to the spell, but also the MOVEMENT of the wand while casting the spell. The movies did a terrible job of portraying this, but having to remember hundreds of spells, and their movements, and their counter spells would be a challenge for anyone. That's why they take years to master each of them. Also, as is spoken of in the books, more powerful spells need a more powerful will behind them. The only reason it seems as if the spells are easy for everyone is because the only spells we ever see or hear of are the simple ones who draw wonder to Harry, a boy who has never encountered magic before in his life. There's a lot more to the series than meets the eye, and simply watching the movies or reading the books without insight doesn't give a person close to even a glimpse of the world Rowling created. That's the beauty of it, with so much left out, readers are able to make up their own worlds and spell possibilities.
Is marijuana magical? Or coffee?