Comments on Most Interesting Magic System - page 2

Come on people, remove 'Twilight'. It has no magic (only a bit in 'Breaking Dawn' and also, the characters don't call it magic) and it's taking up a good rank. People, please read what the list is about rather than just look for your favorite book and vote for it.

Bobby wrote: "Yeah - harry potter fanchildren - stop giving it credit it doesn't deserve. THEY USE WANDS! How on earth is that the most "unique" ?

Another thing, whoever the heck is voting for Twilight, stop i..."

I agree wholeheartedly with this guy Bobby. Please guys, remove Twilight from this list and I'd even remove Harry Potter, if it was in my power. But then, I'd get lotsa flames from the fans.

Cindy wrote: "To me, what makes HP interesting is the way it turns some traditions around. Elves are not otherworldly, beautiful eerie creatures. They are short, helpful critters who do housework. And so on.

M..."

Please understand that the list is about unique and well-defined magic systems, and not about changing stereotypes or any other such part of the books.

Come on, at least remove the Twilight books. I mean Twilight crops up in all kinds of unrelated lists: steampunk, science-fiction and what-not?

And I have to admit, HP has the most idiotic magic system: there is nothing to restrict how much magic one can do, no requisites but a wand, sometimes not even that.

Where does the energy for the magic come from? There is no blue-colored Mana Points (MP) bar that depletes upon doing magic. There is no restrictions of energy (like Eragon), no prerequisites like metals or breaths (Sanderson) or colors (The Black Prism - Brent Weeks), no strength of the mind (Rothfuss), too many demons to control (Bartimaues), too many furies (Codex Alera).

There are only a wand and the proper pronunciation ("win-gar-dee-yum levi-o-saar", remember?) and hand movement.

So, if I had a wand and wasn't spastic and all my hand muscles and wrist bones functioned properly, I could just mug up all the spells and pronunciations and duelling techniques there are and (wand-wave, wand-wave, wand-wave...) gain superiority over everyone else.

The main thing about a magic system is that there must be a way to prevent the overuse of magic. HP is like playing a good RPG on God mode.

And when the force of magic comes from mysterious sources, not the user's own body or other living organisms or metals or runes or any such sources, the entire system is baseless without any means to control it. And that's the main reason I hated the eldunari in Inheritance although I loved the rest of the magic system in the cycle.

I must appeal to people to give it a thought whether a book you vote for really has a worthy unique magic system, or are you voting for it just because you love the books and do not care about the spirit of this list. I haven't voted for Percy Jackson (see?), although I love it very much...

And in HP, advanced wizards, such as Lord V., throw magic around without even appearing to cast a spell, so why do we need the silly words at all?
I wouldn't, however, throw out elemental magic, as appears in (my wife's debut novel), since innate non-physical powers appear magical to those who don't possess them. Control is the issue.

Even the well-written unofficial sequels to Harry Potter: The James Potter Series reads better than Harry Potter, because there the author, G. Norman Lippert has actually tried his best to explain away the obscure magic of the Harry Potter universe. Through advanced technomancy classes with new professors in Hogwarts (GB) and the Alma Aleron (USA), the author has made an actual effort to provide an explanation.

I urge you guys to read these books by the abovesaid author and judge for yourself. These books are not commercially printed because Rowling hasn't given Mr. Lippert the rights to do so. And so these are available for legal download right here on goodreads on each book's page. At the end of each book, the author asks you to support him and encourage him to keep writing more books in this awesome series by buying his other good books, as he clearly doesn't make any income writing these awesome James Potter books, but writes them mostly out of devotion to the amazing world that Ms. Rowling has created.

James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing
James Potter and the Curse of the Gate Keeper
James Potter and the Vault of Destinies

I don't really see how Harry Potter can be at the top. The base of the magic is from stage magic, and is definitely not that original. Good to see Mistborn at number two though.

Harry Potter currently has 332 votes and Mistborn has 330 (at the time of this comment).

Come on people, just 3 more people need to vote for Mistborn to send it to the top and topple the celebrity book with a baseless magic system...

Mistborn don't even have any magic system. Allomancy,Feruchemy,Hemalurgy these are not magic, they are just power transformation. If you can explain a Magical system than how come they are magical, they become science.Isn't magic supposed to be unexplainable??
Thats why Harry Potter's magic system is excellent, as there is no explanation from where or how the magic came.

Magic doesn't have to be unexplainable imho, most magical systems ARE indeed powered by certain matter or elements or simply....mana. Mistborn's type of magic is metal-based. It's considered magic because it defies the normal laws of physics, and allows one to exhibit superhuman and inhuman abilities like see the future/move metal objects/manipulate emotions without involving physical effort. In fact, it's probably one of the most systematic magical systems out there.

Bartimaeus's magic system is essence based, it all requires the involvement of the Demons and humans have in fact, no magical power at all other than that over the demons who control all magic due to their essence (since they're literally throwing bits of themselves around to fuel their magic)

I do agree with the fact that HP's magic is too random. However, I do believe that it should be considered in this list despite its spontaneity.

What I don't understand about this list is....why the heck is the Golden Compass up there? There's no magic (at least in the normal sense of magic powers or systems) there AT ALL. Unless you're considering divine or celestial powers to be magic (such as that of the subtle knife which could cut through realities, which is a divine power, but it's a lot closer to science rather than magic).

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Mistborn don't even have any magic system. Allomancy,Feruchemy,Hemalurgy these are not magic, they are just power transformation. If you can explain a Magical system than how come they are magical,..."

Nouda wrote: "Magic doesn't have to be unexplainable imho, most magical systems ARE indeed powered by certain matter or elements or simply....mana. Mistborn's type of magic is metal-based. It's considered magic ..."

What else is magic but power transformation - harnessing energy (from yourself or any other source) and using it for your purpose? A magic system should explain where the power comes from, and the methods to harness it, the limits on using it. The use of magic should have limits on energy, or else it will be like playing an RPG on God mode. A magic system should be explainable, at least at the basic level, so that you know what kind of things are not possible. In Harry Potter, there are moments when one thinks,"Ah... I didn't know she could do that... Seems pretty convenient to introduce it just now when all other avenues of escape are closed."

This is why Mistborn has the most precise, most beautiful magic system among all the books I've read - The Three Metallic Arts: Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. And in The Alloy of Law, Sanderson introduces multiple innovative ways to combine two magic systems (Firing a Pushed bullet and using the recoil to leap, while reducing your weight). It has limits on power, it promotes balance among the three arts.

One cannot simply say "Aguamenti" and create water. Water is matter - not energy like fire (so, no objection to throwing around fireballs in many books). To create a grain of sand from energy, it would probably take a couple of stars to power it, let alone creating a jet of water. Turning a bird into a water goblet ( http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Tra... ), requires complete knowledge of the anatomy and physiology of the bird and all the properties of the water goblet, just like healing magic requires knowledge of the body to work properly (see Eragon books). In Harry Potter, there's this: Fera Verto - a true transfiguration spell that changes animals into water goblets. Yeah, right, so I go and memorise ALL the charms to turn all kinds of objects into all kinds of objects: the number of permutations alone would be mindblowing. In Eragon, you have to know the innate nature of an object and weild the power to transform it (see, water into gemstone). Even the words uttered are nearly a formality. Magic is possible with sufficient concentration and energy. In the Dresden Files, Harry Dresden says that words like 'Fuego' are just a way to practice, just as one repeatedly calls fire "fire", saying the word healps to strengthen the resolve to do that particular piece of magic (like in Eragon), but magic can be done without uttering words. Harry Potter relies on a spell-system that depends mostly on the words (even their pronunciation) and would be utterly helpless when one is gagged and unable to speak.

The worst thing about Harry Potter is that it employs a kind of stage magic, wizards with pointy hats, magical creatures with no explanation for their existence, transforming a prince into a frog (or at least Malfoy into a weasel or something). And Harry trying to fight off Voldemort, who in turn can fly, do magic without uttering words, etc. And I even remember the packing of trunks, washing dishes in the kitchen, etc, which are inexplicably controlled. There just isn't any delicate world-building. Readers are thrust into a world as-is, and told certain facts like axioms: "That tree is alive! That car can fly! That hat can talk! I just tapped bricks to enter a hidden market!" with no explanation given as to why I did all those things. Everything is too... mysterious.

G. Norman Lippert does a better job of explaining the workings of magic in his much unrecognised, yet quite original unofficial sequel to the Harry Potter series: the James Potter series! Technomancy is introduced as a subject. The technology behind how cartain magics work.

Then there is Disapparation and the Floo Network! The energy it would cost to teleport objects would be immense! As said in Eragon, magic is just a shortcut, it will take the same amount of energy to do something with magic as it would take to do physically - to heal a wound, to transport an object, to kill a person... That was why Arya tires and is depleted of energy after teleporting the egg, it cost her as much energy as it would do to run all the way to that location in the Spine mountains and place the egg there. And like no engine is ideal, due to the imperfectness of the bond, some energy must be wasted, as is mentioned in The Name of the Wind (see, imperfect sympathetic bonding). That was the reason I didn't feel satisfied with Inheritance (4th book in Paolini's Inheritance cycle), when Eragon asks where the power in the Eldunari comes from, and Glaedr replies,"Magic!"

The reason Mistborn is perfect, is that everything is explained, all loose ends are tied (at least in the 3rd book: The Hero of Ages). The existence of the Inquisitors, the Koloss and the Kandra is explained in detail. The balance in play among the Metallic Arts is unique: in Feruchemy, there is balance, and in Allomancy and Hemalurgy, there is a transfer of power, from Preservation to Ruin. Every tiny detail from the Lord Ruler's supposed immortality to Vin's ability to pierce copperclouds, is addressed by the author. When a person has no means of escape, he is either helped by someone else, or dies. He doesn't conveniently develop some new power to help him escape (See, Priori Incantatem in the Goblet of Fire). There is the satisfaction that after reading the books, I understand the mechanics of that world, of Scadrial. Nothing is mysterious, nothing is left ineplicable.

I could rant on and on. Hope I've elaborated enough. I take pleasure in damning the most famous books which overshadow better, unique, and more original books, just becuase they had the advantage of coming first, and getting film-adapted first. There are even better books out there than Harry Potter, and I am wounded to observe that The Philisopher's Stone is more famous(984,350 ratings; 4.29) than some of the favorite books like Mistborn: The Final Empire (23,732 ratings; 4.37) and The Name of the Wind (38,603 ratings; 4.54). Still, I take heart in the fact that the latter books have a better rating! :D

I'll be very surprised at how many people will actually read through all this ranting... :P

Dash wrote: "Tanvir hossain wrote: "Mistborn don't even have any magic system. Allomancy,Feruchemy,Hemalurgy these are not magic, they are just power transformation. If you can explain a Magical system than how..."

I certainly agree with you on many accounts. Mistborn has been thus far one of the most interesting magic system's to date. But I would also concede to the notion that in some instances (case in point - Harry Potter), magic is used as device to explain the unexplainable. So wouldn't it be cool to shoot water out of a wand? Sure - so let's have it be something magic can do. Sure, explaining how it works, and what makes it not work makes for more thorough writing - but I believe that many times that is not the focus.

So while I agree with you that Harry Potter shouldn't be on this list, I also point out that perhaps the focus of Harry Potter wasn't the magic. It was more the mystery and playful writing that made it so popular.

I guess what I am trying to say is that sometimes magic isn't taken so seriously by writers, and that isn't always a bad thing. I have read many a story where magic was taken so seriously that it got in the way of the storytelling.

But where does all the water come from? From the nearest tap, shower, pool? Or just conjured from nothing? When that question comes to mind, Rowling provides no explanation. Sanderson would have at least tried to give an explanation, not left it to mysterious forces at work. Harry Potter might appeal to the pre-Renaissance mind where things were scarcely explained. Mistborn appeals more to the mind of today's people.

Regarding Tanvir Hossain's comment:
What else is magic but imperfectly understood science? Earlier, people used to claim many normal things to be supernatural, while they can be easily explained by today's science. Greater research regarding the workings of the world, blurs the boundaries between magic and science. Energy transformations are commonplace in today's world (see, electric heater) and magic is just the manipulation of energy.

I visited The Coppermind to research some facts:
http://coppermind.17thshard.com/wiki/...

I claim to be a fan of Sanderson just because I have read and loved the Mistborn series. I haven't even started his other books: Elantris, Warbreaker, TWoK, etc. And am not likely to start reading them anytime soon (got the 12th grade finals and a lot of career-making or breaking entrance exams this year stretching upto mid-July).

Imagine my surprise at discovering that the entire story of Mistborn was just a part, a sub-plot of a huge plot spanning all his books, the entire 'cosmere'. Ruin and Preservation hold only 2 shards of the supposed '16 shards of Adonalsium' that are spread across 10 planets: 'shardworlds' in which all his books are set. Then there is the Realmatic Theory. All this astounded me. I never realized that Mistborn takes place in Scadrial, which is just a part of an entire Pendragon-like (D. J. MacHale) universe, and part of a plot spanning numerous books of what I'd thought unrelated series...

And now I will read them all to broaden my understanding of Sanderson's cosmere...

For better understanding of Sanderson's magic system in Mistborn, read Sazed's epigraphs:
http://coppermind.17thshard.com/wiki/...

Hang on, wut? There's a lot MORE to the series? Ruin + Preservation = only two shards of Adonalsium, what's that about? O_O

This is so amazing. I just read the wiki about the two Shardholders Ati (Ruin) and Leras (Preservation). Apparently those are the two Shards on Scadrial.

Apparently there are a lot more Shards in TWoK which I've just finished reading not too long ago. I was wondering who the short intros at the beginning of each chapter/character viewpoint, actually referred to. I've never suspected that the Mistborn and Stormlight archive were related due to the vastly different plots and magical systems. Now I know and it's just mindblowing because Sanderson has totally surpassed my expectations AGAIN.

Whoa. /me is speechless

SPOILER WARNING: This post might have spoilers for Sanderson fans.

Be amazed... Mistborn is only 2/16th of the cosmere... Only 9 Shards of 16 have thus far been mentioned in Sanderson's novels, either referenced by their Shard’s name or its holder. The cosmere spans all his books. The scope of this is immense (and I hope Brandon Sanderson lives long: to know about the entire power struggle in the cosmere, he has to write many more books). Read The Letter in TWoK, who Hoid is, and what he says in the letter:
http://coppermind.17thshard.com/wiki/...

And see this page too: http://coppermind.17thshard.com/wiki/...

Definite SPOILER ALERT.

This is so mind blowing. I seriously hope nothing happens to Brandon Sanderson anytime soon (preferably in the next few decades!) since it's gonna take at least 10 years to finish off the Stormlight archive alone and he still needs to finish Elantris off, AND he's starting a few more Mistborn trilogies.

Wit = Hoid? LOL. I suspected that he was one of the fallen Heralds but I never suspected that he was a God (purely speculation at this point, but BS confirmed that all of the Hoids were one guy).

If he dies before finishing his books, they'll probably need to dig two graves. If you know what I mean ;P

Yes it is a great fantasy series,but I just don't think it magical.

Where is the wizards, witches or demons or dragons or faeries??

There is nothing magical in this series. It is more like a super-hero types. Allomancers draws in power from an external source and then the body then filters it into various forms. THAT IS NOT MAGIC.

The Allomancers are more like superman with rechargeable batteries. Even the peoples of Final Empire don't call them magicians. There is not a single word about magic in this book.

The author said,"Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running."
Here even he didn't say anything about magic while explaining the Allomancy.
Isn't this list about Intersting Magic system??
If so than this book should be removed from the list. It does not have even any Magic system.

Brandon Sanderson is unique among his peers because...he doesn't refer to his magical systems as "magic". There are no specific "magicians" because there are so many magical systems in his books (which are inter-related) that defining one as Magic, would cause confusion because there are dozens of so called different "magic systems (ranging from Allomancers, Ferruchemists, Hematullurgy, Surgebinders, Dustbringers, Soulcasters, Voidbringers, Radiants...etc) within TWO of his series ALONE.

It doesn't change the fact that Allomancy and the like , are a type of magic because they transcend the natural laws and phenomena of the world and defy normal explanation. Sanderson's magical systems are among the most well-thought out and well-explained in the entire genre, that it has almost become "scientific" in its nature.

Calling it Magic in the books would be redundant because readers already know it for what it is.

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Yes it is a great fantasy series,but I just don't think it magical.

Where is the wizards, witches or demons or dragons or faeries??
"

Sanderson does not write typical middle earth fantasy. Therefore there are NO traditional wizards, witches, demons, dragons, or faeries. Other than the first two you listed, the rest aren't magical so I fail to see the connection between magic and mythical creatures.

Nouda wrote: "It doesn't change the fact that Allomancy and the like , are a type of magic because they transcend the natural laws and phenomena of the world and defy normal explanation.."

Not everything is magical just because it broke the natural laws and phenomena and normal explanation of the world. Then all fantasy or paranormal and many science fiction books becomes books about magic.

There is room for disagreement about what is and isn't magic. It's not exactly something that is formally defined by science and about which all educated persons agree.

Personally, I think anything that physically manipulates a fictional world in a way that conflicts with the established science of our own world is pretty much magic. Thus, for example, I tend to include all postulated psionic phenomena within the magic category, because I believe psi has never been demonstrated in a well controlled experiment.

Note that there is a gray are. For example, the late magician Isaac Bonewits believed that psionic abilities were real and that magic was in truth a way of accessing them. Thus, for him, magic was quite real and in no way supernatural.

I disagree and suspect he was cracked, but as I said, there is room for disagreement. We shouldn't be declaring that something doesn't belong on the list just because our personal definition doesn't match the definition of someone else.

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Nouda wrote: "It doesn't change the fact that Allomancy and the like , are a type of magic because they transcend the natural laws and phenomena of the world and defy normal explanation.."

Not eve..."

Paranormal novels usually involve supernatural critters such as your typical vamps, werewolves, faeries etc. They may or may not involve "magic" depending on the author. Heck, in the Vampire King which I have on my shelf somewhere, Vampires are magical. Magic and paranormal aren't mutually exclusive.

Whereas science fiction...is "scientific" as the term says. Most science fiction is based on science or theoretical science or "wishy-washy" science that border on magic but are subject to the "scientific" laws set down by the author to govern his/her version of science. In sense, they're explained by the natural of the universe. Humans and the like, do not have natural magic.

However, some particular brands of science can be so far ahead and advanced, that to a vastly inferior people, they might be considered to be "magic" because it defies their current level of technology and science.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

Mistborn however, is not scientific in any way (other than the fact that only certain people are born with the powers. But then again, half the magical fantasy series have characters who were born with powers and those that had none at all. The rest were written such that you could learn magic. It depends on the author.

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Yes it is a great fantasy series,but I just don't think it magical.
Where is the wizards, witches or demons or dragons or faeries??
There is nothing magical in this series. It is more like a supe..."

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Nouda wrote: "It doesn't change the fact that Allomancy and the like , are a type of magic because they transcend the natural laws and phenomena of the world and defy normal explanation.."
Not everything is magical just because it broke the natural laws and phenomena and normal explanation of the world. Then all fantasy or paranormal and many science fiction books becomes books about magic."

Drawing power from an internal or external source and filtering it into various forms is EXACTLY what magic is. Any person or creature or entity having the ability to do this is a user of magic. This ability is either inborn or can be cultivated, depending upon the point of view of the author.

Next, you'll deny that mages and meisters in The Night Angel Trilogy aren't magic: because they draw power from an external source: heat from sunlight or any other source in case of mages (that's why some of them go naked while fighting to increase the surface area of their body available for absorption of energy), and from the essence of Khali in case of meisters, who in turn gains her essence from the discontent of people. And you will go on and argue that Brent Weeks' new book The Black Prism has no magic because it filters colors from natural light for magic. EVERY form of magic draws upon an external source to fuel the magic, or else uses energy from what the user eats or any energy he takes up in any other form. That is the reason I give a lower rating to Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings, than to any other book exploring the avenues of sensible magic.

If energy had not been a prerequisite of magic, there wouldn't be mages dying around in books. They would be invincible with nothing to restrict their magic, for they would draw forth their magic from mysterious sources. Then pray make me understand why if one doesn't get tired continuously using magic, why the heck doesn't Harry Potter just cast a spell and kill all his enemies and live happily ever after. Why doesn't he go to an enormously powerful being like an Elder Dragon or something who would grant him a wish, and he'd wish for the most powerful artifact in the world and with it, he could be invincible. Because such a thing is not realistic, not viable. Why do we have the hero struggling to win, sweat streaming down his face, while his archenemy boasts and jests and laughs, if it were not that using magic has KNOWN LIMITS: LIMITS OF ENERGY OR OF CONCENTRATION. Where is the limit in Harry Potter? If all it took to cast a spell were a wand, concentration, and pronunciation, then every idiot with enough money to buy a wand, is not spastic, and has a big head could be a powerful mage.

If one wanted to read of wizards, and wish-granting-treasure-hoarding dragons, and princesses, and fearies and daring rescues, and unexplained magic, one can just take up any kids' 'Fairy Tales' book and read it. I have last touched such books when I was 8. Then, you go on and confuses magic with science-fiction!!!

Like Xenophon and Nouda said, the boundary between science and magic is blurred. Get a time-machine, fetch a caveman and take him to the airport. He'd look up to the sky and exclaim in his native language,"G*@5
Technologically inferior cultures might consider the technological advancements as magic, and magic it would be. Develop a system to enable the human metabolism to breakdown uranium and not get deep-fried from it, and add some magnetic substances to our blood, and we'd have a full-fledged Coinshot or Lurcher in our midst. Magic is essentially something (and this includes all supernatual and paranormal phenomena), that does not hold with the currently known laws of nature. The day we discover a variation to these laws that govern reality, which allow such things preciously held as magic to occur without violating these new laws, it is no more magic, it becomes science.

as i was saying if you use broad definition of magic, than there should be no problem to say that twilight has a magic system. surely vampires and shape shifters are magical. and if someone say that it is a interesting magic system than no one should have any problem with it.

same thing can be said for all books off this list.

Dash wrote: "And I have to admit, HP has the most idiotic magic system: there is nothing to restrict how much magic one can do, no requisites but a wand, sometimes not even that.

Where does the energy for the magic come from? There is no blue-colored Mana Points (MP) bar that depletes upon doing magic. There is no restrictions of energy (like Eragon), no prerequisites like metals or breaths (Sanderson) or colors (The Black Prism - Brent Weeks), no strength of the mind (Rothfuss), too many demons to control (Bartimaues), too many furies (Codex Alera). "

the opposite thing can be said about the mistborn series.

where is the extensive study for magic(if you called the allomancy as magic) like Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke or the The Magicians by Lev Grossman.

there is very little magic in the mistborn series, the same 16 metals is used for allomancy. they can't use allomancy for anything else except what these 16 metals do.

Their allomancy power is so restricted I wouldn't call them as magic.

All i am saying you can't decide a book is substandard by comparing with other books.anyway there is no rule saying that you must maintain the rule energy conservation in fiction. Even in the mistborn books energy conservation is not maintained. though author said allomancy is end-positive, but in reality it is also a end-negative like Hemalurgy. allomancers should have gained enormous energy from destroying the metal and there is no way of regaining the metal that is lost. So the world of Mistborn will be empty of metals in next few thousand years. That is a terrible way to destroy a civilization. So how come this is a great magic system i don't know.

But in Harry Potter there is no such possibility. There is good chance when muggles will pollutes all the water the wizards will use "Aguamenti" spell to bring fresh water. Now that is what i call a Interesting Magic System!!!

Tanvir hossain wrote: "as i was saying if you use broad definition of magic, than there should be no problem to say that twilight has a magic system. surely vampires and shape shifters are magical. and if someone say tha..."

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Even in the mistborn books energy conservation is not maintained. though author said allomancy is end-positive, but in reality it is also a end-negative like Hemalurgy. allomancers should have gained enormous energy from destroying the metal and there is no way of regaining the metal that is lost. So the world of Mistborn will be empty of metals in next few thousand years. That is a terrible way to destroy a civilization. So how come this is a great magic system i don't know."

The energy flow is quite simple indeed, if you have heard of things called 'Food Chain' and 'Food Web'. There energy is conserved (of course it is, just like energy are conserved in the entire universe), and I don't have the patience nor willingness to explain in a detailed manner, how it is conserved: just read the Biology textbook to understand properly. Then take and apply the same situation to the case of Allomancers and Hemalurgists, and you'll understand how a net loss on one side and a net gain on one side (just like in the food chain) still follows energy conservation.

Anyways, I've invited Mr. Sanderson to express what he has to say on this topic, and I hope he finds enough time to do so soon, before this turns into a bloodbath...

Dash wrote: "Magic is essentially something (and this includes all supernatual and paranormal phenomena), that does not hold with the currently known laws of nature. The day we discover a variation to these laws that govern reality, which allow such things preciously held as magic to occur without violating these new laws, it is no more magic, it becomes science.
"
Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy all are well explained within the currently known laws of nature of the world of mistborn. So it is no more magic, it becomes science.

but in Harry Potter nothing can be explained in the currently known laws of nature of the world of Harry Potter. So that is REAL MAGIC not MISTBORN.

Dash wrote: "The energy flow is quite simple indeed, if you have heard of things called 'Food Chain' and 'Food Web'. There energy is conserved (of course it is, just like energy are conserved in the entire universe), and I don't have the patience nor willingness to explain in a detailed manner, how it is conserved: just read the Biology textbook to understand properly. Then take and apply the same situation to the case of Allomancers and Hemalurgists, and you'll understand how a net loss on one side and a net gain on one side (just like in the food chain) still follows energy conservation.
"

that is not the same thing as food chain. in food chain energy is not lost, the energy is transformed into other energies, but in allomancy, metal is totally lost as i have said before you simply can't regain it.
In our world you also can transform mass into energy. As Einstein proved that E=mc^2,
from this equation you can get huge amount of energy and i doubt that in the world of mistborn you can get the same amount of energy burning pewter. Even if you can get equal amount energy that makes allomancy end-neutral not end-positive. But Hemalurgy is surely end-negative.So the the net energy is negative.
So the world of Mistborn is losing energy defying the rule of energy conservation. That makes it a faulty magic system.As a result the whole universe will collapse in near future.

You guys shouldn't take it so seriously. It's just a healthy debate/discussion. =P

MAJOR SPOILER ALERT. DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ MISTBORN

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Dash wrote: "Magic is essentially something (and this includes all supernatual and paranormal phenomena), that does not hold with the currently known laws of nature. The day we discover a variation..."

First of all, I respectfully disagree with the notion that Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, are science based. I believe that they are, in fact, beyond normal laws set down in the Mistborn. How else would you explain being able to burn (or basically extinguish) pieces of metal (some of which are reformed back into solid form once they've been burned) at normal human body temperature, or the ability to convert kinetic energy/life/health/etc into potential energy, waiting to be used. The 3 systems are scientific in the way they were laid down and how they work (as in rigidly defined and constrained within a framework of limit and uses). But the way those 3 magic systems actually function, goes above and beyond how science works.

Claiming that the 3 metal-based magic systems are scientific in nature would mean that they are naturally occurring phenomena. They are not. They are in fact the manipulation of certain metals (which are derivative from the two Shards, Ruin and Preservation) to achieve certain powerful or godlike powers (to see the future and past, is a divine power). They're beyond science. I mean seriously, they basically ate bits of Ruin and Preservation's body in order to make their magic work. It's stated in the 3rd book btw. ;)

I'm just gonna point this out and summarize those long assed points I've been posting all along. All 3 magic systems exist solely because of Ruin and Preservation. ALL magic systems in Sanderson's books, exist only because of the Shards of Creation. Each magic system is derived from at least ONE Shard. Every planet has a different shard, and thus they have different magic systems dependent on who their God (aka Shard) is.

Spoiler from TWoK, read at your own risk.

To further strengthen my argument, I'll point out the ONE magic system that actually contains the word magic in it. Old Magic. Which Shard powers it? Cultivation. Since Tanvir requires an actual reference to the word magic in a book in order to make it officially "magic", that is the example I used.

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Tanvir is operating on the premise of traditional magic, or what we'll refer to as the mainstream Witch and Wizard magical system which Tolkien and co. use in their stories. He assumes it is only considered magic if it falls within the purview of traditional magic, and if it doesn't, it's either science or science fiction. Most traditional authors (the older generation) follow that stereotype. Heck, even Paolini did that for his books until he started ruining it with atomic-based magic (lol, won't spoil it but that was the worst thing I've ever read...).

Sanderson breaks all typical stereotypes with his brand of writing. He's nothing like anyone out there. He's more creative (since he doesn't have to use worn out stereotypical magic, and instead creates his own systems which work just as well).

Tanvir hossain wrote: "Dash wrote: "The energy flow is quite simple indeed, if you have heard of things called 'Food Chain' and 'Food Web'. There energy is conserved (of course it is, just like energy are conserved in th..."

Seriously dude, this is not physics class. ALL fantasy books defy science. Heck, to be able to enjoy most fantasy/science-fiction, you have to suspend disbelief. Looks like someone isn't suspending theirs =P

Dash wrote: "But where does all the water come from? From the nearest tap, shower, pool? Or just conjured from nothing?"

That is precisely my point. It doesn't matter where it came from, it is MAGIC. That's how it came out of nowhere, it came from magic. That is the explanation many authors use to overcome the OBVIOUS physical and scientific discrepancies, so that they can return to storytelling, and end the physics lecture. Can people really burn metal in their stomachs and fly? Nope. Can you explain how that ACTUALLY WORKS? Nope. Sanderson just provided more rules and restrictions. Don't get me wrong, mistborn is the most unique in my humble opinion. But nowhere is magic defined as a system with physical limitations. It doesn't have to be. Magic is everything, and magic is nothing. Magic is whatever the author wants it to be - or not be. That's what allows for creativity. Think outside of the box!

Nouda wrote:"Seriously dude, this is not physics class. ALL fantasy books defy science. Heck, to be able to enjoy most fantasy/science-fiction, you have to suspend disbelief. Looks like someone isn't suspending theirs =P"

Amen. (But of course I still think that Harry Potter's magic system isn't unique or interesting. Pretty basic, standard stuff - but it wasn't about that, it was about story and mystery. Magic is just a tool in the storytelling.)

Nouda wrote: "Claiming that the 3 metal-based magic systems are scientific in nature would mean that they are naturally occurring phenomena. They are not. They are in fact the manipulation of certain metals (which are derivative from the two Shards, Ruin and Preservation) to achieve certain powerful or godlike powers (to see the future and past, is a divine power). They're beyond science. I mean seriously, they basically ate bits of Ruin and Preservation's body in order to make their magic work. It's stated in the 3rd book btw."

But they ARE naturally occurring phenomena. Except for Atium all other metals are found naturally. the author also explained how allomancy work. he said,

"Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.) The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running."

As you can see allomencers gene is different from ours. As its states in the mistborn series that Lord Ruler himself gave them the gift of Allomancy because of their support, So they can burn metals and their body turns them into supernatural power. That is not magic. People don't usually say Superman knows magic just because he can fly. His body is different from ours. Allomencers are no different from him.

Atium is part of a God's body. Also i would like to add that God's power is not magic. Otherwise there would be no difference between divine power (religion) and magic. Magic is different from both divine (God) power and science.

Nouda wrote: "Sanderson breaks all typical stereotypes with his brand of writing. He's nothing like anyone out there. He's more creative (since he doesn't have to use worn out stereotypical magic, and instead creates his own systems which work just as well)."

His series IS different from others and also it is a great fantasy series,but that does not mean that this series is also magical. There is no magic in this series. But if you say that every fantasy book comes with magic, than it is pointless to say this list is about Most Interesting Magic System. It would be more preferable to say that this list is about most interesting fantasy universe.

I'm starting to think you don't actually mean that and you're really trolling us. Tell me that it ain't true :P

Yeah, me too...

Nouda wrote: "I'm starting to think you don't actually mean that and you're really trolling us. Tell me that it ain't true :P"

Yeah...call that three, so that means it's official. Of course it's magic!

Just popping in to say i deleted Twilight. You're welcome :)

You just can't delete a book just because you don't like it.I believe there was at least 26 people who voted for twilight.

Are you saying that these 26 peoples were wrong and you are right???

That is just wrong.

If I say that Twilight is the Most Interesting Magic System than it is.

We may have different opinions about the book.

But that does not give you any right to override my decision.

You have just abused your librarian status.

I just can't believe it.

Alexandra wrote: "There is no magic system in Twilight.

Also i read through all the comments before deleteing it to make sure that the majority of comments agreed that it had no place on this list."


true that the majority of comments agreed that it had no place on this list.

Also majority of comments said that Harry Potter had no place on this list. Are you also going to remove Harry potter ?

And you know on the Best Books Ever list (link: http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1....)
Twilight is number one. And if you see the comments on that list you will see hundreds of comments saying "remove that book". The book is still not removed.

As the Dash Watson said,"Magic is essentially something (and this includes all supernatual and paranormal phenomena), that does not hold with the currently known laws of nature."

Surely Vampires and Shape Shifters are supernatual and paranormal phenomena. So it has a magic system.
And it is up to voter's to decide if it is interesting or not, isn't it ?

Also as Xenophon said,"There is room for disagreement about what is and isn't magic. It's not exactly something that is formally defined by science and about which all educated persons agree."

Again i would say what you did was not a right thing to do.

What you're saying is true and i've had a think about it and do reaslise that i made a mistake. I apologise, removing t wasn't the right thing to do.

I do stand by my reasoning though; i don't beleive Twilight has a magic system. But it was wrong of me. I'm not sure what i can do to make it better but you have my sincere apology.

Alexandra wrote: "What you're saying is true and i've had a think about it and do reaslise that i made a mistake. I apologise, removing t wasn't the right thing to do.

I do stand by my reasoning though; i don't bel..."


Don't worry, I am sure a twilight lover will put it on here, I do agree with you though. Nothing personal against twilight, just seems a bit of a stretch for it to have magic, let alone unique and interesting magic, in my humble opinion.

It's alright, no problem, deleting Twilight was "morally right"... :D

Twilight. *puke*

Anyone ever read "The Black Prism?" My friend told me about it today and the entire magical system is based on sunlight. Certainly seems interesting. Hopefully, Harry Potter can be voted down soon enough. Also, I guess I gotta get around to Mistborn soon.

I just read all the discussion here, and it broaden my knowledge. I found this list about a year ago, and find out sooo many books I don't know exists. I started reading those books, and find out I am a newbie in this magical world.

What I want to say is, people have so many different idea and mindset, when people said something is magic and other is not. First I was thinking "what the hell Tanvir said? Does he a newbie in this world?", but then I know I was wrong.

So magic is not defined, if you believe it is magic, then it is. Is it unique? You must read at least 10 of the same genre before you are able to say it is unique. And HP isn't unique, because it is the most known magic (I mean, without the books people will think magic is that thing with waving wand and creating potion).

And I don't think myth creature is a magic, it is just an animal. or not. I mean, if the creature doing magic, it is magic, but if it just flying, moving faster and stronger (such as werewolf), sucking blood and shone under sun and immortal, well, that's their natural condition.

Elf do magic, they pop up (in HP) and modify thing (eragon).
Werewolf not magic, they are just stronger.
Vampire? If it can transform into bat, might be, but if just shone and immortal, I would like to vote no.




Well, okay, actually it is just word play to make twilight is not magic. And I don't make a perfect reasoning so you can stab my opinion. It is what I think spontaneusly.

At the end, just keep loving reading books, especially fantasy world :P

Re: Dune as a book in the Fantasy genre and as containing a magic world

To Whom It May Concern:

ARE YOU HIGH?

Sincerely,
Me.

It's a fairly common idea among longtime F&SF fans (i.e., fen) that Dune is actually a lightly disguised fantasy. They have a point: The novel has emperors, dukes, and other nobility. The characters fight with swords. The The Bene Gesserit are obviously a bunch of witches, and are called such. The Mentat are rather wizard like, and in a later volume, the ghola Duncan Idaho is more or less a zombie. Most of all, the big breeding program at the heart of the story was undertaken to create a prophet.

Xenophon wrote: "It's a fairly common idea among longtime F&SF fans (i.e., fen) that Dune is actually a lightly disguised fantasy. They have a point: The novel has emperors, dukes, and other nobility. The charac..."

"longtime"??? how long? like, say, five minutes?


It's SF. Not Fantasy at all. There is NO magic. (HINT) And no, Mentats are not "wizard like" they are just very specifically trained to use more of their brain (rather than letting it languish); the Bene Gesserit are not witches, they are simply an organized religion consisting of women (though I'll grant that the gom jabbar's box might qualify, but only might. The ghola Idaho is not a zombie, it's a fully cognizant LIVING being (not decomposing, dead, etc.).

And whoopty-friggin' do: they fight with swords. And there's Dukes. And an Emperor. And all sorts of other royal title. Hate to break it to you, but there's all sorts of fiction that has Dukes, an Emperor, other royalty -- and they fight with swords, too! -- that isn't Fantasy.

pfft.

Deana wrote:
"longtime"??? how long? like, say, five minutes?

Many years.

Deana wrote: The ghola Idaho s not a zombie, it's a fully cognizant LIVING being (not decomposing, dead, etc.).

Not relevant. Not all zombies are shambling wrecks.

Deana wrote: There is NO magic.

I disagree. The whole prophecy and germline memory thing is magic. So is FTL, most likely.

Your opinions seem to me to resemble that "science fantasy" monniker that L. Ron (insert SouthPark joke here) and Bradbury were fond of. Is this the case?

re: zombies
Very relevant. Defining, actually.

re: prophecy = magic
I disagree. The religion (including the prophecy) was planned, and painstakingly plotted - all a part of their breeding program. The Bene Gesserit thought ahead centuries, not just a few paltry generations (which is what most people are familiar with). Ask your local 4-H or FFA chapter about that. Hell, I'm sure the AKC would have some info about it as well.

Was anyone else confused when they saw Dune and the Host of the list? I thought those were sci-fi, and therefore didn't belong on a magic system based list (there are of course exceptions to this rule). I guess the spice could be considered magical in Dune's case though...