Michael’s Comments (group member since Jun 10, 2010)

Michael’s comments from the J.R.R. Tolkien group.

Hi Robert, Ana and Lily Grace - welcome to our Fellowship :-)

As it's clear my reading is deficient, and as it's (just past) Christmas, I've treated myself to a copy of the first edition, rather than the paperback that's been sitting on my shelf for 11 years. Now I have to read it!!

Wastrel wrote: "Michael wrote: "Tolkien never stated that the Istari are Maiar, though it is tempting to think of them as such based upon their powers and purposes. One of Gandalf's names is Olórin, which is also ..."

Thank you for this - I've not read Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-Earth and can see that I really do need to. I've never been so pleased at having my ignorance demonstrated :-)

Edit: What joy to find that I already own this book! Looks like I've got my first read for next year's Tolkien Challenge sorted :-)

lily.grace wrote: "So I'm halfway through the Silmarillion and really confused about something.
This is what I know - the Maiar are powerful immortal beings who are not as powerful as the Valar but kind of help them,..."

I've edited the title of the topic, adding "Gandalf and the Maiar" to your original title, to help browsing members identify (and hopefully engage in) this very interesting question :-)

Tolkien never stated that the Istari are Maiar, though it is tempting to think of them as such based upon their powers and purposes. One of Gandalf's names is Olórin, which is also the name of a wise Maia and, although there is no direct evidence that the two are the same, the common identity of the characters feels right. Nonetheless, the Professor chose not to make this clear and so we can but speculate. (Edit: For how wrong I am about this, please see Wastrel's comment, below!)

I don't particularly like the image of Gandalf as a motivational speaker, as that smacks of charlatanism (my prejudice, I accept). Gandalf's powers are themed around fire and warmth, and it seems to me that his very presence rekindles and nourishes the inner flame of fellowship, goodwill and loving kindness in all who contain a spark of these feelings. For those without, he is a raging, purifying conflagration: the protective, purging fire in opposition to the indiscriminately destroying fire of the Balrogs (which, again, seems to support the case for him being a Maia).

Hi Elsie - Thanks for joining us - We're thrilled you're here :-)

The film reportedly focuses on Tolkien's early life and experiences in WWI.

The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun is the Professor's version of a medieval French folkloric poem, which has previously been only scarcely available so this is an exciting opportunity for the vast majority of us to connect with another element of Tolkien's work.

Whilst this is not a part of Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium, the characters he introduces here are considered to be foundational to others he developed for his later major works.

The book has accompanying material by eminent Tolkien scholar, Verlyn Flieger, whose insights I'm sure will be enlightening.

The new publication of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun is out today, 03 November 2016.

I've added an additional Group Read for this quarter, extending the date to the end of next January as it may be that some people will receive a copy as a festive gift.

Please do share your thoughts about this work, which most of us will never have had available before.

It's wonderful to see recognition for Christopher Tolkien's work in keeping his father's legacy alive.

Read the story here.

Here's the Goodreads record for adding to everybody's wishlist!

Beren and Lúthien by J.R.R. Tolkien

Another new publication from Tolkien's scrapbook has been announced.

This one appears to be compiled from material previously published seperately, and inevitably illustrated by Alan Lee.

If that sounds like I'm less than enthused, I'm not. I'm actually very excited at the prospect! Hopefully, it will match the style of The Children of Húrin and look very good next to it on the bookshelf. However, prior to the publication of Beren and Lúthien, we have the imminent release of The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun to look forward to :-D

Rafael wrote: "I began to read it today. It seems to be an interesting reading."

I really enjoyed it, Rafael. I hope you do to :-)

Hyarrowen wrote: "I still can't quite understand why JRRT thought that an invented language must have an invented mythology..."

I've just read the Manuscript section, which reminded me of another, more relevant, point on this. Tolkien writes, "The subtleties of connotation cannot be there [if] your words have not had a real experience in the world sufficient to acquire this."

So, your invented language might have a word for vulnerability, but only a language steeped in mythology could give us the expression Achilles' heel , with all the connotations that attaches to the story of the Trojan War.

He seems to be relatively complimentary about Esperanto in this essay (if my car-journey memory is accurate), noting particularly that poetry was being written in it, of which he naturally approved. He does note Esperanto's limitations as a vehicle for poetic and literary expression, it being primarily a linguistic tool to aid international communication, but seemed to feel that efforts had been made by its developers to give it a European sense of identity. The relativity is with Novial, which he seems to have actively disliked, at least as a medium for artistic expression.

I'll risk demonstrating my ignorance! (Please, somebody who knows what they're talking about chip in!)

I think Tolkien's feeling was that language evolves in concert with the belief system of the culture in which it arises as a means of expressing those beliefs. Once you can express those beliefs, they begin to effect the form and usage of the language, so there's a feedback between language and belief that appealed to Tolkien's aesthetic sensibility. This is why he didn't like Jesperson's invented language, Novial: it was functional, but had no context and no 'heart'. Therefore, in inventing his own languages, Tolkien devised the belief system and mythology in which they could be embedded and which acted as a framework and context for him to work out their imagined developements.

John wrote: "...he adds a great deal in terms of magical beauty--perhaps analogous to phonetic beauty existing regardless of semantics"

You've hit the nail on the head, John. TB is one of my favourite characters, possibly because of his apparent disconnectedness from the rest of Middle-earth, whilst somehow exemplifying it. I seem to remember reading somewhere that he is inspired by nature-spirits in Finnish folk-tales, and to me he does hark back to a less 'epic' tradition, being all the more powerful (both narratively and in effect upon the reader) for it.

I read the bulk of the A Secret Vice essay on a long drive (I wasn't balancing the book on the steering wheel, though, as I was a passenger), and I didn't get a chance to note down my many, many insights - I think there were two! Anyway, I did find this small nugget of interest and managed to retain it long enough to set it down here.

A major theme of the essay is Tolkien's love of the sound of words, and how the aesthetic 'fitness' of those sounds are, for him, enhancing of a word's meaning. However, he's also happy for the sound to stand by itself if it feels right. Towards the end of the essay, he quotes from the Kalevala in the original Finnish, noting that some of the words actually have no meaning but are used by the poet not simply to fill out the rhyme scheme, but for the joy and "merry freedom" of creation of something beautiful. This put me in mind of Tolkien's use of the same device in his own poetry, and particularly that of Tom Bombadil:

“Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!”
- The Fellowship of the Ring

I can't really think of anything else that exmplifies for me Tolkien's joy at the creation of sounds to fit a meaning, in this case not a word, but a person. These three lines encapuslate everything you need to know about Tom Bombadil's character - careless, mirthful, and deeply connected to nature.

As I'm not a philologist or language expert (I barely get by in my native tongue), I found Fimi's and Higgins's introduction to Tolkien's paper indispensable, not to say interesting in its own right.

I've heard the allegation, and the rebuttal, that Tolkien was a boring and indifferent tutor, so it's gratifying to read in the minutes of the society to which Tolkien delivered his talk that, "the society listened to various speeches, which, with the exception of that of Professor Tolkien, were remarkable for their singular lack of wit. Professor Tolkien then entertained the society with a series of amusing stories" (page xxxii).

I suppose it doesn't follow that a great writer is necessarily a great speaker, but, as a fan, it's good to have independent testimony that he was witty and entertaining in person.

Having just finished a book I needed (and wanted, to be fair) to read, I'm starting on A Secret Vice today. I know that there are some very knowledgeable members in our Group (including one of the editors of this book!), so I'm hoping for some well-informed discussion, given that it won't be coming from me! :-D