Robbie’s Comments (group member since Jan 21, 2008)

Robbie’s comments from the Books I Want To Talk About group.

****subtle spoiler******









I think maybe it was because I was more familiar with the Cinderella story than with the original Oz books. It wasn't as long or as dark as Wicked, and there was a bit of a surprise at the end. I'm a sucker for surprises!

I really liked Confessions, as much as or more than Wicked.

I read Son of a Witch. I was kind of in a bad place emotionally and couldn't concentrate well, but still I thought it was hard to drag my feet through it. After reading it, though, I read some of the original L.F. Baum Oz books, and I felt that I would have understood more and gotten a lot more out of it if I had read those first. So...I recommend doing your homework and reading Oz books before Son of a Witch.

I read this book in the not-super-distant-past, and I recall really liking it, but I barely recognize the description of the book on goodreads! Oh, dear.

Cute--"confrontational attitude." Although, maybe she only was involved in that last bombing.

Amoral? How did you see that? Being an Animal Rights Advocate seems to imply some sort of morality.

Julie--I think that Elphaba becoming more unlikable was quite intentional. It brings us around to the evil Wicked Witch we've all known and grown up with. It also leaves things a bit ambiguous about whether one is born wicked or becomes that way due to environment.

Oh, no! Now I have to go look that up. Plus I'm on vacation for a week. Remind me to get back to you when I return.






Spoiler








Do you mean the older Asian man and the singer?

Okay, so I'll start. What do you think about the plausibility of two people really unable to communicate having a true love relationship? Is it just about the physical, or is there more of a--spiritual, I guess--connection?

How would you have handled the situation, in general, do you think?

I read it, but it's been a while. I don't think I ever got to discuss it. I'd be happy to refresh my memory and discuss.

The musical is quite different from the book. The book is much darker and deeper. I liked the book, and I love the soundtrack--will be seeing the musical here in Pittsburgh in September. Not Broadway, I know, but it should be fun!

What, specifically, were you frustrated by, Allison?

I, too, was struck by William's fear of Hell. I think I commented on it somewhere...

Ah...from Part II

2. What do you make of William Hamleigh's penchant for violence, yet fear of hell? Is character a result of his upbringing and situation, or is he pure evil?

Robbie Said:
I think William's violent nature combined with a
fear of hell is not all that surprising. We certainly continue to see that today in people with all kinds of religious beliefs. Many people will report a belief in God or Jesus/Heaven and Hell, yet do not conform to the behavior others might equate with those beliefs.

As for the nature vs. nurture thing, I suggest referring to the Wicked thread from the RGBC, before the discussion degenerated to fries with mayonaise :)

Meghan said:
As for William, I don't think he was pure evil. I think he was a very insecure boy, raised by a tyranical mother who struck the fear of God in him. I think in modern times, he would be a bully with borderline pyschotic tendancies.

Robbie said:
Hmmm...I would say William has Anti-social Personality Disorder, maybe some obsessive-compulsive disorder. So far, I haven't noticed any hallucinations or delusions to suggest psychosis. (sorry, couldn't resist) In any case, your response would suggest you lean toward the "nurture" explanation.
Later...
As I was reading the early part of part III this morning, it occurred to me that William's violence/fear of hell, is a manifestation of his adolescent stage of moral development.


Meghan said:
William just reminded me of an overgrown bully. And I was trying to think of the word I just read that described another guy, but I couldn't and was too lazy to go get the book to find out what it was. Well, maybe later today I'll figure out what I really meant. heh

I find his relationship with his mother really interesting in a very scary way. Just thinking of all the different stories where there are women-hating men, you can pretty much trace it back to their relationship to the dominant woman in their life (normally their mother, sometimes their grandmother).

On the other hand, do you think that Regen used this "power" because she knew physically she would never be able stand up to William? And his preference towards violence (as the period itself was just a violent time) might overwhelm her some day.
.................................................

Sorry if you've already read these comments, Deb!

Well, I think Follett is admittedly non-religious, so I thought he did pretty well, considering. He caught the complexity of faith and the struggle to distinguish between God's will and man's will. Maybe I just read a lot between the lines. Is it my Calvinist lens? I'm still impressed with the quote I referenced earlier in this thread--the one about his efforts yielding nothing without God.

I kind of got the sense that William was only really solidly "bad" character.

That was something I loved about Wicked also. It reminded me of what a one-sided view we have when we meet or see someone in a single situation. Each person has a whole past and all kinds of ideas and emotions and activities that we don't even know about. I hope it helps me to resist rushing to judgement and "pigeon-holing" people.

I agree about the ending. I sort of hoped this thing with Filipe would be a fling. If she had gone home, never seen him again, and still felt fine with herself, I would have felt better somehow.

As for the corruption and "milking" of tourists, I don't necessarily see those things as unique to Bali, Indonesia or anyplace in the world, really.

I admit to feeling a little bit like it would be nice to escape to someplace like Bali for a while, like some of the ex-patriots that lived there, even though I haven't gotten into a lot of trouble or anything!

I kind of liked the medicine man's idea about what to do with arguments about religion--say "I agree with you" then go home and pray to who you want to. Except I wouldn't want to lie. Perhaps the 'smile and nod' would do :)

I'm not entirely sure why, but this was probably my least favorite of the three parts. Don't get me wrong, I liked it a lot. I enjoyed hearing her take on the different people she met and her description of the different cultures. It just seemed like it was a different "voice" compared to the other parts.

Dini, as you said in another thread, you're from Indonesia (not Bali). What are your thoughts about this section?

Well, to be honest, I'm somewhat relieved that Richard didn't have that kind of experience. I'm not sure why I'm relieved--he just gave the impression that he was so wise and advanced in Yoga. I suppose, though, that one can be wise without being a champion at yoga meditation.

Interesting point about Liz being preoccupied with male attention. I didn't pick that up personally. She did have several girlfriends that either visited her or she met on her travels. Pop psychology might suggest being preoccupied with male attention has something to do with wanting to make up for attention she didn't get from her father while growing up. Maybe it was from being celebate all that time? Or, maybe she just feels comfortable around men. Then there's the obvious that she had really never spent her adult life without a man at her side, so she was looking for someone to lean on in that way, whether or not she was aware of that herself. How much of it could have been due to the roles of women in the various societies? They may have been too busy to have free time to spend with her.

Okay, so here are other points of discussion. Do you think Liz really had those spiritual experiences, or was she just making them up for her book? Is there a psychological or psychiatric explanation that could explain what she experienced--if she did indeed experience it? Have any of you had similar experiences? How did she (she actually suggests maybe she didn't) distinguish being asleep from a spiritual experience? How would we? Is there any way I could have used the word experience more often in this paragraph?

Don't get me wrong. I am a person of faith, and I do have times when I feel I am more in God's presence than at other times. And, I appreciated and endorse the metaphor of many rivers leading to the same ocean. But there is a part of me that just isn't sure about these out-of-body kinds of experiences. And, as I said in my previous posting, I'm not sure that it is something I'd want to pursue.

Alas, I always need to fall back on the ideas that faith is called faith because we can't explain it. And that God's ways are not comprehensible to humans.

I did think it was neat to read about the non-stereotypical visitors to the Ashram.

Thanks for reading my ramblings! I look forward to reading some thoughtful responses!

I enjoyed this section, but in a different way. I'm a bit like LG's friend who says something like, "I so wish I wanted to do that!" During my divorce recovery period, I did do a lot of praying for the first time, and a little spacing out while staring at a candle, but nothing really like Liz talks about. I'm sure the spiritual experiences she had are things you just have to do in order to understand. I admire her for trying to explain. I'll be interested to see what sort of processing of things she does in Indonesia.

One thing that touched me was the part about "soul-mates." Richard says, "People think a soul mate is your perfect fit, and that's what everone wants. But a true soul mate is a mirror, the person who shows you everything that's holding you back, the person who brings you to your own attention so you can change your life...they tear down your walls and smack you awake...they come into your life just to reveal another layer of yourself to you, and then they leave."

Reading that helped me to re-frame a relationship with a friend that started about a year ago. I was working in a terribly busy private practice and always feeling like I was drowning and failing and needing to get out, but feeling too exhausted and afraid to really do anything about it. I had been hosting medical students in my office about once a year, and one was with me through the month of May. He was fun, and we seemed to hit it off right away--similar senses of humor, sensitivity to patients' needs, etc. It was nice for me to have a colleague of sorts to hang out with all day, talk medicine with, etc. We spent a lot of hours together, and I think that I let my guard down a bit because I knew he was gay (not a threat to my husband) and I got quite attached to him. He really complimented my teaching and encouraged me to do more of it. Anyway, when he left, it really brought my negative emotions about my job to a crisis level--I was miserable. I cried all the way to and from work every day. But his encouragement and the fun we had together helped me summon up the courage, not only to look for a new job, but specifically to find a teaching position. Anyway, I didn't get the first job I interviewed for. Nor the next. Things did not look at all promising, and I descended to one of the worst places in my life emotionally. (Even though to see it in print makes the crisis seem a bit silly.) My friends were perfectly willing to listen to and talk with me about feeling wounded because of not getting the jobs, and about turning 40, but nobody wanted to talk about how much my student meant to me and how much I missed him. Even my therapist, who seemed the most understanding, wanted to frame it all in terms of my isolation and loneliness at work, rather than acknowledge that there was any real mutual attachment or connection between us. Anyway, we continued to meet for coffee from time-to-time and support each other a little through my quest for a job and his career decisions and search for the right residency match. Then, in February I got a job offer (which I accepted), and in March (or was it April--I forget), he matched to his first choice residency program. Then suddenly--and I think this is my whole point here--I felt like something was resolved. I recognized that he would be moving away and, like so many other people I've met and connected with in life, I would be unlikely to see him much, if at all, again. And I felt okay about that.

In the past, when things like this happen, I tended to frame them, like a good Calvinist Protestant, in terms of Divine Providence--God has a plan for me. And that interpretation still works for me. But the soul-mate thing is an interesting way to look at it, too. I've taught a fair number of students, and I have enjoyed all of them and thought they were all great people and great students and have appreciated the individual strengths of each. But, perhaps there really was that one soulmate...

Personally, I think that, if I am to accept the idea of a soulmate, I think we're allowed more than one. Probably as many as we need.

Was Richard Liz's soulmate? Did he have the hots for her? Do you think they ever met up again? Do they keep in touch?