Ana’s Comments (group member since Jan 08, 2016)

Ana’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Well, up until now it's been two of us patrol members commenting on here, haha, so the thread is staying and I feel like none of the posts so far have been redundant. :) Just my two cents to keep y'all posting here to your heart's pleasure. :)

Otherwise, I fully agree with many of your points, Tim. I've said it before in the Sex Work thread, but here it goes as well - the problem with sex is that it's probably just about the most natural thing in the world (like, no sex and many of us wouldn't be here)...from a biological point of view. As long as you are not asexual, and even then there is a whole spectrum that I am still not fully aware of, but I just made the disclaimer because it's a reality...well, as long as you are not asexual, you are wired to have a sexual drive and to feel desire, the need for pleasure and also, why yes, the need to continue with your lineage with the appropriate specimens. It's very simple if you look at it like that. It's a natural thing which is latent in the early stages of your life and then gradually unfolds.

Sex gets complicated, and weird, and awkward, and hurtful too sometimes, because of everything that we humans link to the experience from a psychological point of view. Rejection, religious beliefs, a certain set of values, emotional baggage, you name it. Because we cannot and ought not break free of such inherent complexities, this is understandable, but it requires a little extra effort from us. Either because of inner or outer views, I feel like with sex, we will always be handled this package loaded with equal parts caution, curiosity, pleasure and a persistent feeling of an ongoing experiment. We owe it to ourselves to make our way through it and make the most of the experiment, and so I believe that hypocrisy will only hinder our experience.

That is the reason pornography will always be there, because what it sells as a product appeal to something that is wired in us. And really, why should it be any other way? It doesn't matter whether you, as an individual, choose to partake or not of pornography. The crucial thing here is to ensure that said pornography results from adult, consensual and dare I say, thoughtful sex. When I say thoughtful, I don't mean sex with love between a real couple (although those you can find, too!). I mean sex which takes into account all of the people involved in it. Not only the manly man who is in charge of mainly receiving pleasure and only then giving it back. Not only unrealistic scenes which set us for awkwardness and crazy expectations in our own private life. Sex that is inclusive and safe. Some would argue that this would render the whole deal unbearably vanilla, but I beg to differ. Inclusive, safe, consensual and thoughtful still leaves plenty of room for all the fun - in fact, they are prerequisites.

Last but not least, I've been thinking of the London talk with Gloria Steinem while writing this comment. How we might be interested in looking for a different word than pornography because of the etymology of this word, and how alternative words would maybe help change the name. Looking into what I just said is my homework for y'all while I go to the gym, folks. ;)

Your story reminds me of a friend's house where a childish drawing on the wall welcomes every visitor. When I first went to her house, I couldn't help but look at the drawing and ask my friend about it - it was hers. In this case, I think it was encouraged by her parents, but who knows, perhaps there is a similar background to it.

Motherhood gotta be a ton of endless, selfless work. I am not sure whether I want to have kids, but if I do, I don't know whether I'll ever be able to equal my mother. My father too, of course, but because you were specifically referring to mothers, I believe. I just don't think I can be as good in my mothering as she is.

Porn is definitely not for everyone, but the inevitability of its existence is also pretty much a given fact, in my opinion. However, I'd like to point out that AFAIK feminism has also arrived to the adult entertainment industry, not only via the legitimate claims of the actresses involved in said industry, but also via new directors and ways of, well, filming. Now this is a topic where I really don't know much more than the ABC, and even there I'm lacking, but Erika Lust, for example. She's so famous that she's kinda made it into the mainstream domain now.

I think that porn is OK as long as you are mature enough to know what it is, to know what to use it for and more importantly, what not to use it for. I think it's OK as maybe a tiny part of the big, big picture that our sexuality should be.

However, irregardless of the circumstances that pushed her to do so, she would still be a sex worker, right?

Oh, and Tim: sorry, it should have read as PM, private message. But I'll save the pizza for whenever we meet in Belgium. ;)

I don't think Marina intended to advocate Christiane's case...I think it was more of a recommendation, and I think it fits in this thread. :D

Henriette is right, Rowan! Please read at your own pace and/or convenience, no deadline here. We do ensure to have the latest books' threads in the front line, but other than that many of us, yours truly included, are reading whenever time / money / mood makes it possible. Oh, and great to see you here! :)

I wonder whether this thread is not a duplicate of others? Not that it is not interesting, just that for the sake of management we gotta be careful with duplicates. Any other mods that can weigh in? :)

Bunny wrote: "Tim wrote: "Could you perhaps define "regulating" sex work? It just sounds a little contradictionary to "decriminalising". The way I see it, if I heard a presidential candidate talk about how they'..."

On the topic of condoms in the adult film industry, I fail to see why would anyone take condoms out of the picture, particularly those who are directly involved in it. They are, or should be, a must, for immediate health and safety reasons but also as part of a message. I'd be hard pressed to think of more crucial ways of broadcasting awareness on condoms and safe sex than via the adult entertainment that most people is likely to watch at least once or twice, including teenagers.

Tim wrote: "Ana wrote: "Tim wrote: "Thanks again Ana. I'll be sure to ask them some time this week. But, next time you come to Belgium (for reasosns of... are there really any?), don't you dare not to let me k..."

Haha, and if it was only that small mistake. I'll leave that for the MP I owe you, though. ;)

OK, so my opinion on the sex industry. As I mentioned before, I believe that sex work should be legalised. While my view of sex work will always remain rather critical, I find it so hypocritical when people tear their hair while deeming sex workers as less-than-others. The fact that you decide that sex work is not for you, and that there are no circumstances in your life that lead you to change your mind, does not mean that others have to automatically adjust to your point of view. But mostly, what concerns me the most is the fact that there will always be prostitution. You might like it or not (for several reasons, some of them more legitimate than others, I guess, I do not), but do be realistic and acknowledge that your opinion does not really make any difference in such a fact. By legalising sex work and fully acknowledging sex workers as such, 'workers,' we are helping ensure those aspects that supposedly worry us all so much - their security, their right to enjoy social welfare, retirement and other basic citizen rights, their free exertion of such a profession, and not as the slaves of some vile mafia.

I do find that at least the reality of many female sex workers is clearly incompatible with feminism, but even from such a point of view, then the fight for the legalisation and control of their situation, by themselves mind you, is definitely linked to an inclusive, open-minded feminism. Also I fully agree with what Bunny said about how those who are most disadvantaged end up being the easy prey of sex trade mafias and other unpleasant circumstances. We need to sit down as a society and change the elements of guilt, hypocrisy and prudery into a mature, responsible debate that has to do more than just include the very subject of such a debate - it needs to freely give them the floor.

It's the same old song with sex. We always twist it and suck the pleasure out of it with prejudice, false virtue and the likes. If it is tarnished in the end, it is not because of its nature, but because of our inability to talk about it, and have it, and enjoy it, like the adults that we supposedly are.

Tim wrote: "Thanks again Ana. I'll be sure to ask them some time this week. But, next time you come to Belgium (for reasosns of... are there really any?), don't you dare not to let me know first xD

Speaking o..."

Actually, I should definitely go back someday soon, for the same reasons that took me there two years ago to begin with. Ik hou wel van Vlaanderen maar als ik niet meer practiseer mijn Nederlands, dan zal ik alles vergeten. O//O I would love to meet you in such an event.

Back to topiiiiic! Tim, I would be interested in watching the documentary you mentioned, as long as it is available online, of course. More power for that wife if she knew and willingly accepted her husband's jaunts with male sex workers. I would not be able to accept that and am afraid that I would judge him harshly, however, if it works for them both, ahhhh, OK I guess. It only goes to prove that we really know sh*t about what's going on in other people's bedrooms, and why should it be otherwise unless they themselves permitted it?
From what I have read on the topic, the experience of male sex workers, both straight and gay (or the former but willing to offer their services to other men) is vastly different and somewhat, uhhh, 'better' than that of their female counterparts, although not free from its own negative traits. I'm mostly thinking of an old article I read once on a male gay sex worker and, barely a week ago, one that I read in the (otherwise mostly shitty) Spanish website of the VICE magazine from a young gay male who worked on one of the many gay saunas in Madrid. I could easily find that one and gather its most interesting points so that we could add them to the ongoing discussion. I think that the different experience for females and males are directly connected to feminism. And I shall continue to elaborate my opinion on this topic after my late hot dog dinner LOL.

Oops. I read your edit myself and fully understand your point now. In no way should our attitude be a condescending "you should be happy to be featured here," however I see how my initial opinion would have got you (us, really) in trouble. Please proceed!

Oh, I meant the permission of those people, too. However, perhaps you are right. Even if it proves unnecessary, it is still a nice gesture.

Last time I went to Belgium, about a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to walk through the red light districts in both Antwerp and Ghent. As a foreigner, I got a very distinct impression from the one I had in Amsterdam. The red light district there, because of its worldwide fame of course, had an unmistakable touristy feeling there. I made my best not to immediately reveal myself as the typical tourist, because I deemed it immature and, in a certain way, sort of prudish, but the general atmosphere of the place was decidedly more welcoming of curious looks and touristy walks. In Antwerp, the streets that I saw were mostly empty of the...shall I say, glam look of their A'dam counterparts? In Ghent, the quarter was definitely not tourist friendly.
Oops, I'm on my uncle's iPad but we're going back home. Brb! :D

Hey, Tim! ;)
As per usual, I am looking forward to your posts in this thread (what's new though, haha.) Sex work! There is a popular TV program in the Spanish channel Cuatro that is called 21 Days In... in which, well, you're guessing right, the (always female) journalist spends 21 days in an often controversial world or social collective. Last week sex work was featured again. We watched it at home and we did not know whether it was due to the fact that the new presenter is nowhere near as good as her predecessor, but it felt phony and contrived and had this distinct feeling of 'aw, poor sex workers, I empathise so much with you, that is, until I hit home and go back to my comfy reality.'

I think sex work should be legalised just about now in each and every country, and that the absence of such a move is particularly absurd and offensive in self-identified 'modern' and 'progressive' societies such as mine and many other Western ones.

P.S This is a disclaimer to any Spanish members who may disagree with me on me and my fam's impressions of the TV program. I only watched a portion and I might be wrong, but well, it's what I got from her commentaries. Only my opinion, though, perhaps I should rewatch the whole thing to make a final opinion and also contribute some of the stories shared here.

BTW Tim, I forgot to mention. While your idea of asking the OPs of said quotes for permission to share them here can never hurt, I'd dare to say that most of them would be happy with the sharing in a place like this. You're actually doing the right thing by helping spread their insight and perceptions, I think. :)

Bunny wrote: "Thank you very much for joining the conversation Ana! I hope you will comment some more when you've had time to read the rest of the comments through.

I liked what you said about starting from a p..."

Thank you for bearing with my bible-length post, haha! Yup, that is pretty much my point of view. It is, indeed, a most basic point to start from, but I believe that precisely because of such basicness, it also bears the potential to go a long way with the average opinion. If we were able to return to the struggles of our own individualities, even within the most decidedly cis and straight side of the spectrum, and if we were able to keep hold of our own experience of individuality and our conquering of said unique status, we would be able to easily empathize with others' struggles. A more advanced level of understanding would most likely, from a realistic point of view, remain a privilege of those with a certain degree of education and / or maturity, but just as in many other fields of knowledge, we do not need to master all spheres of knowledge. Often we just need the 101 of many disciplines to not make a fool of ourselves in public / navigate our realities. Why wouldn't it be the same with this topic? Just being aware of others' realities and identities, and therefore acknowledging them. This would facilitate the inclusion by the authorities in the spheres of power, law, academics, culture, etc. of the necessary constructs and instruments that would in turn introduce a society which would be fit for the entirety of its members. An Utopia indeed, but I've found that the very notion of an utopia, even if unattainable in its entirety, is necessary for mankind to avoid full chaos.

Well, it's gonna take me a while to really read, and not just skim through, all of your mostly wonderful comments. As a cis and (so far) straight woman my life has been notoriously and luckily free of the conflicts that others have faced and that, after a history of partially ongoing repression and misunderstanding, have finally become subject to academic, thorough research that has shed, and will continue to, shed light on the subject. As a result, as I am sure all of my contributions to this forum will prove, I hardly have any knowledge on the topic discussed and have to proceed starting from my own values and willingness to approach these issues. Luckily, the latter is quite genuine, so I hope to start gaining some facts and info from this thread that I can later share in conversations. :)

So far, I think I have managed to grasp successfully the reality of a spectrum as opposed to the rigidly binary construction that was imposed on us, ironically so as it is nothing but yet another human creation, as well as what I perceive to be the incredibly reassuring but also initially scary fact that each of us are, as I believe Bunny said, much more individual than we'd ever dare ourselves to admit.

I think this reassuring but scary quality is what lies at the bottom of all the transphobia and overall the astonishing degree of ignorance that most of us show / used to have with regard to sexual identity, gender and related concepts. The average person out there, and by average I mean cis and, mostly but likely not exclusively, straight, is damn scared of being unapologetically different. What the general audience defines as 'being different' nowadays is often still hardly a culturally and socially approved quirk that ends up being used to just find our crew from a catalogue and stick with them. While this is a natural impulse and many modern societies have finally started to provide alternative outlets for traditionally silenced identities to just be and express themselves, that fear is very much still there.
So what happens when we leave that fear behind and find ourselves able to fully conform to one of the many denominations of The Mainstream? Conformity follows, I guess. The harmful luxury of not having to consider others. It's not even that the average person will actively discriminate trans, queer, agender, asexual, genderfluid, etc. folks, which many do, needless to say. It's the fact that we can sadly navigate through our modern society without having to spend a single brain cell in those folks. Admittedly, one needs a certain level of awareness to be able to actively engage in such an effort. It makes me think of one of our threads here, I Am Not Smart Enough to Be a Feminist. This is a legitimate reason, because not all of us can read research on these topics, and those of us who can have a long way ahead before fully grasping all the concepts. For instance, I have read about transexuality and asexuality and know the basics enough so as to accept and empathize with trans and asexual men and women because I understand, if only as much as I can from my own experience, their pleas. Genderfluid or, more precisely, agender people, though? I confess that it is hard for me to imagine. I now know that such people exist, and because I believe that you have to accept everybody as long as they do not harm others, well, my answer is out of question. But it is, for now, an uninformed one. I've got the basics, though, and reading and listening to others will reinforce my values and help me do my very small part in increasing awareness. Others lack those basics.

Sorry if this was a bit of a rambling, and I hope that my posting here has not derailed the thread. :) If you're thinking tl;dr, well, my bottom line is that at this point in history, we are in charge of articulating a whole construction of the spectrum that gender and sexual identity are that will be able to effectively defy the binary one and that we will pass on to those who come after us. We are in charge of planting the seeds of individuality and tend to them attentively. If we succeed, we may or may not see them bear fruit, but others will and who knows, maybe Katelyn's utopia will become closer to reality. :)

I had no idea of what you were all talking about, LOL. So I naturally had to go look, and five minutes later it turns out that I'm an ENFP. Hmmm. Still thinking about my results...

So very glad to have you both joining the team and overall the groups, ladies! :)

Melle wrote: "In the end, this is an autobiography. We all follow our own paths and learn at our own pace. This was written in 2011 and she posts quite frequently about transgender issues on her Twitter. I think..."

Melle, just because quoting you was not enough to get the words that interested me the most here:

Inclusivity can't be forced. It has to be learned.

I am slowly catching up with threads and, as I have said a million times, I need to start with Moran, but these words. These words will keep resonating to me regardless of any further progress with the book. I agree with you entirely on this.

Hi! So, here's someone who has not read the book (also I've been mostly absent for the last month, so, as I said in my latest general update, hi I'm back LOL.)

I really do need to read Moran's book, not exactly despite the criticism that it's getting in this and other threads but rather because of said criticism, so that I can have my own informed opinion. In that sense, therefore, I feel like I agree with what Katelyn said - quotes can be taken out of context, even when they're somewhat lengthy and compiled by people who were most likely highlighting them because they found them to be true...by the way, I have not checked those quotes, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least that, irregardless of the reason they've been quoted by GR members, they have led to pretty intense debates outside these boards.

It was also outside of these boards, too, that I saw an instance of (intentionally?) misunderstood quotes that can only reinforce my opinion. I follow The Economist on Facebook and if you do as well, you may have noticed that they will sometimes post quotes from relevant, inspirational people from all fields. Well, one day they had a quote from Gloria Steinem talking about marriage...

'In fact, women's total instinct for gambling is satisfied by marriage.'

I must stop here for a bit to make a disclaimer - I do not know whether this comes from one of her books or is just part of a speech of hers, However, if The Economist had fully quoted her, it should have read like this:

"Someone asked me why women don't gamble as much as men do, and I gave the commonsensical reply that we don't have as much money. That was a true and incomplete answer. In fact, women's total instinct for gambling is satisfied by marriage."‬

...Let me tell you, the reaction of most of those who commented on that post to Steinem's quote was just as true and incomplete as the quote itself was. Sadly, I would say that many preferred it that way.

Back to Moran and the quotes that have been shared in this thread so far, if I were to judge them standing alone like they are here, I most definitely do not enjoy the one about women doing fuck-all for whichever amount of time she states. That is simply not true. Then there's the one that Marina found fatphobic:

"Overeating is the addiction of choice of carers, and that's why it's come to be regarded as the lowest-ranking of all the addictions. It's a way of fucking yourself up while still remaining fully functional, because you have to. Fat people aren't indulging in the "luxury" of their addictions making them useless, chaotic, or a burden. Instead, they are slowly self-destructing in a way that doesn't inconvenience anyone. And that's why it's so often a woman's addiction of choice. All the quietly eating mums. All the KitKats in office drawers. All the unhappy moments, late at night, caught only in the fridge lights."

I think she's not entirely wrong in her analysis of food addictions and the way in which they are often closely linked to emotional problems. However, yeah, I do not feel comfortable with her automatically assigning this behaviour to fat people. I'm not sure whether I would have tagged this quote as 'fatphobic' - to me, it's rather a matter of over-simplifying a whole issue. Food addictions and, overall, unhealthy relations with food do not necessarily lead to the victim of said issues becoming fat. What about bulimics? What about people who will not necessarily put on weight because of whatever internal (e.g. metabolism) or external reason (e.g. working out reallyyyy hard out of guilt or simply habit) but are still deep in there? Also and back to fat people, what about those who are entirely OK from a mental health point of view, and eat healthy, but are just prone to overweight? I found her approach rather reducing.

However, my conclusion is still the same - I do not believe I can fully express my opinion without reading the book(s) first. :)