Katelyn’s Comments (group member since Jan 07, 2016)

Katelyn’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

I think we can both enjoy the book while constructively criticizing its weaknesses, and additionally, we can accept it for what it is without being obligated to like it just for what it is.

I happened to like this book for a number of reasons despite many legitimate criticisms from others, as well as things that I personally didn't appreciate. As a polemical memoir, it is successful, but despite this success, I can see why many people would be disinterested in it, given the number of funny feminist memoirs by white women there are on the market. Some people may have reached peak white lady memoir (that's a joke, just to clarify since it's hard to translate over the internet, but the point still stands!) ;)

I had specific reasons for liking this book. As a music scholar, I appreciate Moran's background as a culture critic, particularly her start at Melody Maker and subsequent focus on rock and pop music. The pages she spent discussing Lady Gaga were particularly enjoyable for me, as well as discussions of other musicians, and even the frequent references and the setting of some of her memories.

I also have a deep appreciation for her very graphic depictions of pivotal moments in a woman's life, often considered taboo to discuss publicly in too much detail. While she still employs humor in those sections, the tone definitely shifts; the material is darker, heavier, and simply disgusting. I love it! (view spoiler)[I'm referring specifically to her graphic discussions of menstruation, masturbation, and drug use, but especially her first childbirth and later abortion. (hide spoiler)] I know she is not the first or only writer to do this, but this is one thing that, in my opinion, we can't get enough of. These issues need constant exposure to be normalized and to erase the stigma!

My copy is ready to be shipped to someone who needs it!

Unfortunately, I am a bit strapped for cash at the moment, so I won't be able to afford to ship internationally, so if you're in the U.S. and need the book, please send me a private message.
OR if you're from outside the U.S. and would be willing to pay shipping, I'm open to that as well.

Hopefully in future months I'll have a bit more money (just got some additional permanent shifts at my job), and I'll be able to pay international shipping ;)

Anyway, just private message me in either case and we'll work it out from there!

Bunny wrote: "Try this, see if it helps.

https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_..."

This talk was one of the first examples of intersectionality was exposed to, however many years ago, it honestly and profoundly changed my life.

Bunny wrote: "Do you know the story about the dancing man? Last year some people posted video on 4chan of a fat man who was happily dancing until the people taking the video ridiculed him and then he stopped. Th..."

YES! I remember this! Thank you for reminding me of it. Such a lovely story.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the group of people who had the motivation to do something to help him were women.

Marina wrote: "Sherrie wrote: "Disney movies get nit-picked on a level that I don't think any other brand has to deal with. I didn't notice in the article where they looked at dialogue in other movies (just scree..."

Yes, I've heard this statistic as well. I think the context I saw it in was related to gender representation in crowds.
Here's a link . Don't have time to read the whole thing right now, so I'm sorry if there's anything awful hidden in there, but I did find the quote I was looking for from the Geena Davis Institute for Gender In Media:

“If there's 17 percent women, the men in the group think it's 50-50,” she told NPR. “And if there's 33 percent women, the men perceive that as there being more women in the room than men.”

http://inthesetimes.com/article/16157...

Kressel wrote: "Though I haven't read it, I think Cinderella Ate My Daughter: Dispatches from the Frontlines of the New Girlie-Girl Culture deals with the Disney imagery plus more. Now that author [..."

Those sound great, thanks! As usual, make sure you add them to our bookshelf ;)

Aglaea wrote: "Marina wrote: "Sorry :( I went back and found the original remark, which was "She [a black woman] hardly could convey properly the challenges I as a white woman am facing." That's different from be..."

I think the misunderstanding here is a little more subtle. It seems that based on what you're saying now, you meant that she could understand your experiences as an individual who happens to be white, but you phrased it: "as a white woman."

As a result, your phrasing seems to saying that a black woman cannot understand the general systemic experiences of white women, which arguably, she can, because we are all regardless of race inundated with discussions of white women's experiences disguised as issues general to feminism. Some of them may be so, but the experiences of non-white women are also different in many ways. Despite this, a black woman will have a better understanding of any unique issues facing white women because those issues are constantly presented as central to feminism whether or not they are universal. Whereas a black woman's unique experiences are not as well covered by the media or mainstream feminism, so white women are less likely to be familiar.

What I assume you mean, is that your individual experiences are valuable, whether or not they are directly connected to the fact that you are white, and you are correct, that it is valuable to share personal experiences with others (regardless of their race/identity, as well).

Perhaps I'm wrong but that's what I assume your intention was, and in the future perhaps you can disconnect the fact that you are white when speaking about individuality, because whiteness in this context is understood more as a systemic factor than an individual attribute (although it is both).

Please correct me if I've misinterpreted anything, Aglaea or anyone else following along.

BookishMusician wrote: "I think people (especially children) see princesses as a sort of wonderful, magical person. This is mostly due to the fact that we grow up with stories about all these lovely princesses. Maybe that..."

I agree, I think that is her overall point. I was just confused because from my U.S.-based perspective, people were really obsessing over Kate Middleton and the babies, but apparently it was a lot crazier with Diana, so I stand corrected!

It seems that as Disney Princesses have become less magical, less perfect, less helpless, etc., we've come to relate to them more meaningfully. And in this way, we've lost interest in being princesses because they're just like us, so what difference does it make? So the more we are able to relate to them, the less exciting the prospect of being a princess is. We're already like them. Maybe?

I think How I Learned To Be a Women would be the most accurate title given the content.

The Art of Being a Woman seems to lose some of the joke for me... Maybe because "art" feels more serious than the suggestion of "how-to"?

The French title feels similarly serious.

I don't really have a problem with the title. I think if someone were to randomly pick up the book and start reading, they may expect something different (and apparently that was the case with the way the book was originally marketed?). But reading a blurb will quickly alert a potential reader to the fact that it is a memoir, not a self-help book or universal commentary. Plus, I think the joke of the title becomes obvious within a few pages given the overall tone of the writing.

Herbalt wrote: "Here is my question. I decided to do this book challenge with my 12 year old feminist daughter ...we read "my life on the road together" and listened to "the color purple" together. She passed on B..."

Check our Book Suggestions folder for lists of feminist books organized by different genres and topics.

Marina wrote: "@Katelyn, I appreciate choosing a more accessible book. Lots of other well-known books have also been translated into many languages though, like Anne Frank's diary, To Kill a Mockingbird, Tove Jansson's adult books... "

Absolutely. All of these things are in consideration. There are hundreds of worthwhile books out there that can be chosen in the future. We're only four months in, so I can say with certainty that the selections will only be further diversified.

Aglaea wrote: "There's quite a bit of critique (pop science etc.), but so far I've never met anyone, who doesn't at least on some level recognise their type. Therefore I think it's a very helpful tool in understanding more about others, and trying to navigate discussions more successfully, in particular at work where expectations can be high. "

I imagine that at the very least it could be a useful tool for recognizing how people view themselves, even if that view is not accurate.

Just to address the issues of hashtags as fuel for discussion, part of the issue I think I'm picking up on here is that those of us who have had the privilege of good education, higher education, and especially those of us who are pursuing careers in academia, have set a higher bar for discourse. So it's easy to say "That hashtag is frustrating for me because it doesn't actually discuss the subtleties of the issue." But many of the people interacting with this hashtag may not have the same privileges of education, and are not operating at the same level of discourse. I think it's important to recognize that just because an academic may have a deeper understanding of these issues, we cannot silence the efforts of people who have not had the privilege of such an education, because it just contributes to the problem, since their lack of privilege probably comes from a systemic place rather than individual failure or disinterest.

That being said, my own feelings about hashtags are complicated, because their purpose is generally to "spread the word," in a sort of campaigning sense, and when that is all we do for an issue, it's not enough. But that doesn't mean it's useless. It's just not very helpful when people think "I've done my hashtag activism for the day, now moving on..." But again, I'd apply those standards more strictly to the privileged who basically can't be arsed to do more (yes, I'm American, but I love this phrase and after reading Moran I've got British-isms stuck in my head).

And I know I've said this before, and I'm not trying to make people change their opinions on this, but I think it does bear repeating: this book was chosen in large part because March's book was so difficult to access. It is available widely across the globe, in many translations, and the publisher was willing to bring the price down across platforms specifically so that members here could afford a copy. This doesn't erase any other problems that are in the book or issues some might take with the announcement, but Emma chose it despite having read it before for those reasons.

Yes! I don't really know much about the theory behind it because I just think it's fun and haven't gotten around to it yet, but I'm INTJ. It's the rarest of all the types, and is particularly rare for women, according to what I've read. So it makes me feel special haha

Marina wrote: "My pain pretty much went away when I switched to menstrual cups :)"

Mine too! I love my cup. I had my first REALLY bad month of cramps last month, but it had been the first time in a year that I had been significantly incapacitated. It used to be almost every month.

This post is discussing the Postscript, so if you haven't finished the book yet, spoilers ahead!

In the Postscript, Moran discusses the obsession with princesses and I thought it would be worthwhile to analyze her assessment of this given the popularity of the thread Disney and Feminism.



I liked her thoughts on the differences of expectations with regards to being vs. doing. Moran claims that men are expected to do things, while for women, things happen to them. As a result, young girls are led to believe that they can just be the best versions of themselves and everything else will fall into place.

Additionally, I was curious about her assessment of the shift in princess stories after the death of Princess Diana. Are the changes really a reaction to Princess Diana's legacy?

She also observes that people are less interested in Kate Middleton and sort of perhaps pity her, compared to obsession with and admiration for Diana. I was surprised, because at least in the U.S., people seemed pretty obsessed with the most recent royal wedding and royal babies. Were feelings about it different in the UK? Even if people were still very invested in Prince William's wedding to Kate Middleton, is it to a much lesser extent than with Diana? Or is it perhaps generational—Moran already lived through the excitement of a royal wedding and this time she was "over it," whereas for people of my generation, it was all new, but Moran may not have been interacting with younger people and getting their full reactions?


Those were some of the thoughts I had reading this section of the Postscript. Please feel free to either respond to my thoughts or post your own discussion points related to Princesses as discussed in the Postscript of How to Be a Woman!

Judy wrote: "Just for the record. Menstruating doesn't have to be painful. I began at 11, maybe cramps 1/year. Every 35days, for 4-5days. 2 easy pregancies, deliveries ( i mean easy! Like 3 hours) menopause at ..."

You're very lucky, I am jealous! And I think it further drives home the point that when a young woman (or someone of any age) complains of very painful menstrual cycles or particularly bad symptoms, we need to stop dismissing it as "Oh, that's just what being a woman is. Deal with it." There are women who actually don't have these symptoms at all. If someone is reporting a certain level of bad symptoms, why are we not examining them as thoroughly as we would for other types of health problems? Why does is usually take decades to diagnose endometriosis, for example (if it's even diagnosed at all)?

Aglaea wrote: "Tadej wrote: "It is not insult on scientists, and it is not said that scientists will not understand it. But, because of nature of scientists which requires enough attention on one branch, the indi..."

And all of that doesn't even begin to touch on research and theory in the humanities, which I would argue have a more direct affect on our understanding of gender relations and feminism, and disprove on a consistent basis over decades that gendered characteristics are not natural, but are enculturated, which seems to go unaccounted for in Tadej's theory.

Leanne wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Leanne wrote: "But also, I don't think anyone should feel badly about doing something "for their partner" because of their partner's personal preference. In fact, I think it can be i..."

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But I agree especially when you say "in a perfect world." Because there are reasons that partners have these preferences. If these cultural norms weren't so pervasive and didn't disproportionately affect women, I'd agree with you that personal preference should be more of a consideration. But the way things stand, personal preferences aren't really all that personal.

That being said, I still think it's fine to do things like shave or wax for your partner. As long as it is not causing the individual undue stress, pain, discomfort, etc.

Ugh, I can go on and on about biases in medicine and science... UGH! Having a number of anxiety-linked health issues, most of which commonly present concurrently, and 9/10 diagnosed are women... and so many either have little to no standardized treatment or are just incredibly expensive to treat.

I went years, in fact a decade encompassing all of my teen years, with extremely painful stomach cramping and digestion issues on a daily basis. The doctor just said "Oh, you have IBS. Eat more fiber." Well, I guess that helped a little bit, but it wasn't until years later when a doctor actually bothered to forward me to a GI specialist and eventually had tests done that came to a definitive diagnosis. I got the antibiotics I needed (Yup—all those years with an untreated bacterial infection!) that cost hundreds of dollars, btw, and my quality of life has been 250% better ever since. Still have some IBS symptoms on occasion, but if my doctor had just listened to me over a decade ago, instead of assuming that this 12-year-old girl was exaggerating her pain or was just too weak to handle it, my teen years could have been so much better.

Then add on top of that the anxiety related to my PMDD, TMJ disorder, and insomnia, all of which cropped up within a year of each other... And none of these things have very good standard treatment and/or are nebulous to diagnose.

Sorry again for ranting! I've gone wildly off topic. To bring it back to hormones and menstrual cycles, I don't think it's a coincidence that all of these related issues began happening for me during the height of puberty. If we paid closer attention to young people's, especially girls', experiences during puberty and paying attention to patterns like these, I think we'd have a healthier crop of adults with better overall health.