Traveller’s Comments (group member since Jan 14, 2015)

Traveller’s comments from the On Paths Unknown group.

Regarding Magical Realism vs obscurantism - to me those are almost a contradiction in terms, in the sense of that Magical Realism works as a device to highlight, to heighten certain themes and/or emotions, whereas obscurantism works toward veiling certain themes or ideas.

We actually touched on this quite a bit in our recent reading of Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel. Magic realism is more a thing that tends to fit in with superstition and folklore. Note the way in which Gabriel Garcia Marquez uses it - he uses it as a sort of expressionism through which he melodramatically makes the unseen ‘seen’.
Esquivel does this as well - she highlights emotions and ideas with the technique.

Let me take an example out of a work that can't really be spoilerized, Marquez's Chronicle of a Death Foretold. The novella starts off with a portent of the future being delivered via a dream. Some people actually believe that dreams can portend the future, but whether you believe it or not, it is a technique that picturesquely foreshadows whatever the author intends to highlight. At the end of the novella, a person picks up his own entrails and walks a remarkable distance with them in his arms before falling down - it is highly questionable whether a person really would be able to do this - but it serves as a terribly dramatic way to highlight something the author is trying to convey - a sense of deep horror.

I'm not sure if the kind of 'magical' obscurantism that Mikhail Bulgakov employs in order to create political satire or commentary is exactly the same thing. Similar, certainly, but they don't quite have the same flavor to me.

...and what Borges does, seems more cerebral to me again than either of those. To me, Borges is playing with ideas and concepts - delivering commentary too, sure, but in a more... abstract manner?

Phew, a lot to reply to here. Let's start at a point:

But as for the Divine Right of Kings, I think it persisted, at least unofficially, long after feudalism had gone. Didn't it apply in Japan until WW2, for instance?
.."

No matter when the mindset started or stopped, (that is beside the point) - the point is that for the people believing in it, it is reality, no? They act as if it is reality, and even if some of them might not have believed it, it may as well have been true, because everybody acted as if it was true. (...and the point in the Borges story is that people eventually started acting as if it was true, even when it wasn't, which reminds strongly yet again of Umberto Eco's Foucault's pendulum. )

Nell wrote: "At Traveller's request, I'm posting the following I received from lithub Daily today:

“The encyclopedia, for a leisurely, curious man, is the most pleasing of literary genres.” Borges on the lit..."

Thank you so much, Nell! Oi, this thread is really meager as far as links are concerned, isn't it? I suppose we have posted most of our material in the various story discussion threads. I must remember this thread the next time I see something on Borges.

Nell wrote: "Traveller, your "guess" is very subtle, because (I'll echo your "of course") we despise what we recognize as better than ourselves. Classic theme.

I noticed the only remotely American writer he..."

I really enjoyed that post, Nell! You had me chuckling all the way down. Since most of your q's seem to be rhetorical, I will only comment (or perhaps reply question with question) on the last paragraph there: But my sense is that at a deeper level, the story is about the fact that you can reach a point of study where literature as art is no longer the point; the goal becomes to obfuscate to the point that no one can best you in either knowledge or satire. One becomes an arcane clown rather than a scholar.

Well, isn't that the postmodern way? Borges may have been rather early for it, but po-mo he seems to be right down to the bone... a cultural forerunner in so many senses. It is when you look at the dates when he wrote his works that you feel a bit awed.

Nell wrote: "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...

Sounds arcane enough to possibly be the person? And precedes Berkeley... Makes sense with hermeneutics?"

You are quite right - in that sense, Dalgarno would segue in nicely with Berkeleys' sentiments.

Nell wrote: "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...

Sounds arcane enough to possibly be the person? And precedes Berkeley... Makes sense with hermeneutics?"

Ruth wrote: "Oops, I found it. It is George Dalgarno."

Oh, sorry, Ruth and Nell, I only saw your updates now. In fact, I became the victim of my own practice of keeping a myriad browser windows open, and accidentally posted my post about Dalgarno on one of my personal status updates.

The one moment we were still discussing the term: "native American", and the next moment I am mouthing off about Dalgarno, heh... :P

EDIT: I see I am much too slow for you guys!

I'm not familiar with Dalgarno, but I wonder if that refers to this Dalgarno: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_..., because of the language especially for the deaf, and or this universal language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...

My guess is that it has to do with invented languages. Perhaps Borges came across this guy while delving into linguistic studies? Just a guess.

Ruth wrote: "Anybody know which Dalgarno JLB is talking about in this line: A secret and benevolent society (amongst whose members were Dalgarno and later George Berkeley) arose to invent a country. Its vague ..."

Well, Berkeley was one of the philosophers who postulated that all reality is subjective, that reality as we know it, exists only in our minds (in other words, a relativist) - and in a way, one has to admit that this is true. The opposite argument would say that things are what they are objectively - the "if a leaf falls in the forest and nobody sees/hears it" problem.

In a way, one has to admit that there exists a 'reality' that is unique to humans, due to the way that we perceive and cognate. A dolphin's world, for example, would appear totally different than a human's - they probably see and hear differently and they have an extra sense that we don't have - their faculty of echolocation, for one.

The world would also look totally different to a bee or a fly, and so forth.

Nell wrote: "Cecily and all, I'm sure others have gotten this in lithub today, but here's an article that may be on point, JLB discussing his view of encyclopedias with Osvaldo Ferrari on the radio in 1984 -- t..."

Thanks for the link, Nell, I wonder if you would mind if we put that in the "general" Borges thread as well? Seems like a worthy link to have in our database there. ;)

Well, taking that conversation from the top, what he mentions about how each nation is represented by an author atypical of that nation, hmmm. I'm not sure it is that easy to 'tag' a nation in one sentence, but he does seem to have a point to some extent. My guess would be that those authors are revered for the very fact that they rise out above the rest, and therefore of course they are different?

Not sure what the rest of you think of this.

Nell wrote: "Hello, all. May I make a tentative first post?

I've read your comments, and many links, and am somewhat familiar with JLB, well, maybe a little more, but not to the extent you are.

Half the ..."

Phew! What excellent commentary on a pretty daunting story. I find this, along with Library of Babel, among Borges's densest stories. ..and its not among his shortest either, so there's quite a lot packed into it.

Yes, I think one of the things about it, is that it seems to describe the way in which ideologies and religions influence the world. They start in one place and they spread and grow, just like with how the "myth" of Tlön acquired weight as it spread and grew, pretty much like a snowball rolling down a hill.

Take for example Marxism - it started with single bodies of work, each which attracted commentary, which attracted commentary, which attracted commentary... similar thing with the Judaic religions and how Catholicism and Judaic scholars and Islamic scholars added commentary, and same thing with Buddhism and Hinduism - and as each of these ideologies gain traction, their tenets become "reality" to those who follow them, in both an abstract and a concrete sense.

For example, when feudalism reigned in Europe, people really believed that the king was the representative of God in earthly matters, and the Pope, in spiritual matters. They really did believe that nobles deserved what they got and serfs or peasants what -they- got, until a few Frenchmen and also a few Scots and Englishmen and Germans came and upset that whole apple cart.

Anyway, there is actually still lots to say, as Cecily and Nell intimated, on for example linguistics, metaphysics, etc., so will come back for that, but I want to give you a huge thank you for your post, Nell, and for summarizing and explicating this story so effectively.

Oh, and you are very welcome to the group, Nell, nice to have you here!

Well, since it's getting such glowing recommendations, why haven't I read it already!

We can always do a sort of flash discussion thread soon, where we compare the movie to the book. People invariably want to kvetch either about the movie or the book of adapted novels, since most people either find the book or the movie was handled better. :)

For example, I hated the books of The Hunger Games, but found the movies passable, and I never managed to get "into" The Godfather books, but I loved the films. :)

Jennifer wrote: "It is in my top 5 favorite reads of this year. If I was to keep an actual list...that is where is would be."

Will add it to the bookshelf...

Hmm, the movie of The Martian looks good! Maybe we should read the book....

Cecily wrote: "I'd be very happy to reread The Castle. It's too long since I last read it."

Oh goodie, so we have at least 3 or 4 people now who wants to do it. Let's put it on for around January-ish, shall we?

I'll do some admin this weekend. :)

Poet Gentleness wrote: "Traveller wrote: "... it seems a bit on the 'dark' side to me? I've been thinking that we should perhaps try and lighten it up with something less.... you know..."

Hello, Traveller,
Thank you so m..."

Oh good, thank you so much, Poet G. Let's definitely put Notes from the Underground and The Castle on for next year then!
I am very happy to see your post, and welcome, btw! I am sure you'll fit right in. Hmm, it's not exactly as if these are "light" reading either, but oh well, we never professed to be a 'light reading' group. :)

Linda wrote: "Has anyone noticed Mr. Twinks' ability to change the color of his fur.....astounding! :D
.."

Mr Twinks says:
"I know that traveler person will try and pass me off as some kind of chameleon, just to try and draw attention to herself; but it'sa actually only the different qualities of light that I was lounging in, my dear. *yaaawwwnn* Oh, and please tell those dozy cats that Mr Twinks only bothers with snails when they're in a garlic and butter sauce. *slurp*

PS, the snails, not the cats, mreeowwwr. "

Mr Twinks (seen here hanging out with some friends) says:


"My miau, but this thread possibly has the most intelligent humans in the universe in it! (Not you, Traveller! *snarl* )
Amazingly, they really seem to know where it's at. Although they're all amazingly kewl, that Annie is still my favorite:
1) because she called me a dahling,
and
2) because she is the ideal slave for any demanding cat.

Ugh, I wish you were more like her, Traveller. I am now going to don my shades, so that I won't have to see you anymore! *sniff* Talk to the paw, you scraw! "

Annie wrote: "Mr Twinks sounds like a darling!! ..."

Mr Twinks is very haughty. He says:

"Psshaw! That cat narrating the Dear Kitteh videos? He learned all he knows from me - and now he pretends to be this big shot. Oi, the nerve!

Also, Traveller, tell Annie she is a darling for making so much space on her bed for so many cats - that is a degree of devotion and self-sacrifice that one rarely sees in a human. She shall ascend to kitteh heaven one day!

Tell Yolande she is all right despite her enormous faux pas of acquiring her master at pet shop. At least she is learning.

But tell Miss Teacher Linda that although she is an okay lady for being nice to cats, (indeed, she's totally forgiven due to being nice) she should get her dates in order: Jaques Cousteau's last episodic doccie ended in 1994, and there was still a Cousteau TV film shown in 1995.

Boy, it's hard for a cat to imagine that so many yummy fish could be swimming around in so much pesky water!

Tell that other interesting Linda that I will turn her kitteh into a non-hater for a small fee. Mrrreeeoooowwrr"

Mr Twinks here watched the videos that those silly humans above had pointed to, and his oprrrinion is that most of the cats shown were acting in a juvenile manner just to draw attention to themselves. "I would never behave like that" miaued Mr Twinks indignantly. "My self-esteem is too good for me to mess my paws/claws up like that. No, if I use my claws, you would not think it was a joke", he growled softly, giving a sardonic wink.

Not to want to upstage Mr Twinks, but the cat in the video knocking the glass off the table reminded me of a cat I had that used to jump onto my desk, and if I had coffee in my mug, would stick his paw in repeatedly, sucking some coffee off it every time. I have a photo of it somewhere.

Our neighbor's cat used to love teasing the neighborhood dogs by sitting on walls or high objects/trees just out of the dog's reach. And the silly dogs would dance around and bark away, apparently oblivious to the fact that they were being played. :P I could just see the smirk on the cat's face when that happened.


Psst, don't let Mr Twinks hear, but I think Mugsy the gator-kitteh is amazing!

Mr Twinks: "I heard that, you imbecile!"

Linda wrote: "Traveller wrote: "I normally never use poison, (luckily we don't have cockroaches at my home) but black and brown widow spiders is one case where I am 100% prepared to break that rule.

EDIT: Oops..."

Not really, even though I had not specified "on TV" - unless you thought I was younger than 23 (I'm not), since his shows ran on TV from 1968 until 1995) See here: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0184150/

But people buy videos and DVD's too, you know. ;)

The brain-fart happened because he has a son named Jean Cousteau who also does doccies and film work, and who was involved with his father's work. So perhaps I should have said Jean and Jacques Cousteau. ;)