Traveller’s Comments (group member since Jan 14, 2015)

Traveller’s comments from the On Paths Unknown group.

Actually, I have come to realize that when it comes to history, I prefer non-fictionalized accounts. I prefer reading more factual accounts or "opinion pieces" without any kind of "dressing up".

As in:(view spoiler)[ Given the sometimes euphoric radical embrace of the logwood cutters of the Bays of Campeche and Honduras—many of whom were part-time buccaneers and all of whom maintained strong relations to the buccaneering community—Dampier’s account of some of their exploits is even more troubling: “[They] often made sallies out in small parties among the nearest Indian towns; where they plundered and brought away the Indian women to serve them at their huts, and sent their husbands to be sold at Jamaica.” Such practices seem confirmed by Exquemelin who tells us about the Indians of Boca del Toro ending business relations with the buccaneers “because the pirates committed many barbarous inhumanities against them, killing many of their men on a certain occasion, and taking away their women.” from: Life Under the Jolly Roger: Reflections on Golden Age Piracy by Gabriel Kuhn
(hide spoiler)]
Imagine trying to fictionalize all of that. I suppose one could yes, but honestly, I prefer the shorter route. :P

Oh wait, while I'm quoting... I found this anecdote quite... interesting:

(view spoiler)[This disaster weakened Charles’ grip on Europe and encouraged independence movements. In 1543 Francis I of France concluded a treaty with Suleiman for help against Charles; Suleiman sent Kheyr-ed-din to Marseilles to support his new ally.

Along the way Kheyr-ed-din raided the coast of Italy and captured the governor of Reggio and his family—but the ninety-year-old pirate felt the stirrings of passion when he saw the governor’s eighteen-year-old daughter and he took her as a wife and gave to her as a wedding present ... her parents.

After celebrating his nuptials he proceeded to Marseilles where he had the pleasure of witnessing the lowering of the flag of Our Lady and the raising of the Crescent. Ultimately his commission to injure the Spaniards was more satisfactory to him than to the French: he replenished his crews with raids upon the French coast, enjoyed the amenities of Marseilles, and conducted no operations against Spain. Finally he was dismissed with full pay and a large enough bonus to see him all the way to Constantinople. From: Flying the Black Flag: A Brief History of Piracy by Alfred S. Bradford (hide spoiler)]

Oops, sorry! Just ignore me when I get all gushing like this.... :P

Linda wrote: "he seems to feel the need to include every factoid he learned about the subject in his novel, and it just gets to be too much, too forced.
..."

That sounds like Neal Stephenson, especially when he wrote The Baroque Cycle Collection. I haven't read it yet, but they say it's a real info dump. So... actually my kind of thing. :P But its also BIIIG, so.. :(

Probably my scariest project for the near future, but one which I feel a lot of motivation for (if only I wasn't so afraid of its size), is Rising Up and Rising Down: Some Thoughts on Violence, Freedom and Urgent Means by William T. Vollmann.

I really need to brush up my Mario Vargas Llosa, now you mention him, Linda!

Derek, maybe I shld grab an abridged Don Q. -that sounds like a plan...

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Yes, there's tons. I admit that up to this point, I only replied to the initial issues we were discussing in the first thread, and for that, I only skimmed the end - I actually st..."

That promises to be quite a read. It would be nice to discuss HOD with you as well!:) I hope I remember enough of it, because I don't have time for a re-read.
See what i mean with Vandermeer being highly intertextual?

Magdelanye wrote: "gosh, yes, well, its swell to get feedback. I am aware that Dradin is standing in for all of us pathetic petty dreamers and our vain and foolish hopes.
but is it steampunk?"

I'd say a mix of steam and cyberpunk, though to go too far into that might contribute to being a bit of spoiler at this point in the discussion. As far as the setting is concerned, it looks like they're in some postindustrial age that has retrogressed to about the level of steam technology again? Given that he finds skeletons of machines from the past lying around?

Once again a hasty conclusion from my side based on memory alone. Amy/Ruth might correct me on that.... :)

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Hmmm, I read this as his father cheating on his mother after her madness, before he sends her to the Bedlam people. (Also there is a "might once" in that quote, and Dradin is not strictly reliable at this point, so it's hard to say.) I find it significant that his mother has no voice except her singing, and that is silenced, so I definitely do think his father drove his mother insane through his indifference to her and her art. (I read the rage as stemming from his refusal to attend her performances.) "

This is true; his mother becomes like nothing - the mud is surely significant and symbolic of her silencing... yes, like I say, I had skipped to the end, so thanks for your more accurate observations there; I concur that the indifference is the main thing - and/but remember that indifference can be expressed in various ways. The poor woman must have felt intense frustration to have been railroaded like that.

Oh wow, Angela Carter! Yes, I have read some of her, and although I did not like all of The Bloody Chamber and Other Stories, I suspect that is because I'm not quite 'with" what angle of feminism she is coming from. In fact, on another group and on this group, I have agreed with members to do a feminist project involving her The Sadeian Woman: And the Ideology of Pornography. Now, how interesting that... see, this is why I just adore group discussions! Thank you!

Will come back and comment more later.

Yes, there's tons. I admit that up to this point, I only replied to the initial issues we were discussing in the first thread, and for that, I only skimmed the end - I actually still have to re-read the parts about the jungle, at the temple, and the horrors of the festival.

A bit tied up atmo, but will try to catch up with you latest by tomorrow afternoon, if not before then. In the meantime, post away! It's nice to write down one's thoughts like this; it helps to solidify them, and it's nice to later refer back to them if you need a refresher.
Re innocent/naive - I probably did mean naive, yes, and typed innocent in my hurry. (Always in a hurry these days, ugh.)

Lori (Hellian) wrote: "I definitely plan on joining a group read in the future! My problem is most of my reading comes from the library, so I have to read those before they are due!"

Ah yes, indeed. Well, in that sense, maybe it's a good thing to have some of your reading planned so far in advance as I've done with that schedule. Though, even so, timing can be a problem because you don't always know when a book will be in at the library.

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "You haven't read that Richard Matheson book?! I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked! I'm so done with zombies myself, but I re-read that Richard Matheson book every few years. ..."

Ah, yes, that one! I just knew you would know if I prodded you a bit! :D:D I knew it was something to do with "I am..."

Yeah, and that's not all.... ;)

Thanks Lori! Btw, have you or Bill been tempted to do any reading with us next year? You are quite welcome to make suggestions still, not all the books on that schedule are set in stone, and there's always still late June and onwards....

Bill wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Take a nice long deep breath, Derek..."

Hi Traveller,

I'm only going to put my opinion in on this once. Because the responses you and others have made is what a troll wants.
The..."

Yeah, that's true Bill. ...and I think by now, it has become clear that he's out attention-seeking.

Will do! :)

Nothing to say he can't be bi, no indeed. But that particular encounter was homoerotic, no? That was all I meant.

...and we don't know what the rules of their society is. However, I think it is other things that messed Dradin up, rather than guilt about his emerging erotic feelings. (So, in answer to my earlier musing, no, I don't think that was what caused his guilt.) I think, rather, it was things that went on with his father and mother. I think his guilt was over that he could not help his mother, could not save her. I suspect it was his helplessness that got to him.

People, please let's all just try and be tolerant, and let's not get personal. :)

I admit that I usually find the "chik lit" genre boring, but I'd not say without exception. ...and books about zombies as well. Though I still want to read that Richard Matheson book.
We all have our likes and dislikes, I suppose.

Take a nice long deep breath, Derek. :) I think Lori is probably just being sarcastic, or, maybe she has not experienced Greg elsewhere, and therefore, is being sincere... I don't think she is trying to heap the coals on.

Apologies to you, Lori.

Yeah... from his very first post I suspected Greg of being a troll, but, you know, in the name of freedom of speech, we initially decided to leave him on a bit and see what transpires.

He has to this point quite cleverly avoided making any ad hominem attacks that would give me a clear excuse to throw him off.
Remember, differences of opinion are allowed - as long as we don't allow it to descend to a personal level.

I shall have some deliberations regarding the matter - the thing is, I don't think any of his utterings are sincere, and more often than not, he pulls out quotes as "replies".

Simply throwing a person off a group is a serious matter, though, so... hang in there Derek, this matter is being investigated and considered.

Anyway, and of course, Dradin's parents are very important in this whole setup. Here at the end, we learn that Dradin's father had forced his mother to watch while he cheated on her.
Was that why her singing was always so full of rage?

Dradin is an extremely traumatized, damaged person - he literally was forced to watch his father drive his mother insane - his mother whom he loved.

...and his father then sold her like a freak in a freak show, and when Dradin tried to protest against that, his father would beat him. It's almost too painful to contemplate... I feel such pain for Dradin's sake on that count, that I'm actually not surprised that he feels more comfortable with a doll than with people, and if you look carefully, you start wondering if deep down, Dradin had not always known that she had been an automaton.

Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Oh wow! I like your reading of his acceptance of his love much better than mine. I hope I can adopt it. Off to finish the reread now. (I agree with you totally on the consumerism aspect. Also, I li..."

Ah, yes, I guess for me the objectification of women was implicit, but I should have dwelled on it more explicitly in my post (was a bit in a hurry when i posted).

Yes, in addition to the aspects I had mentioned, of course there is a strong feminist aspect to this story, which is twofold. The one theme centers around Dradin's mother, and the other one with how the doll, and Dradin's acceptance of the doll, emphasizes the objectification of women.

On some other group somewhere, we had once had an entire discussion about "men who love dolls" - it's fascinating and very creepy. I'll try and find the vid we had watched. These men buy these extremely life-like sex dolls, and they dress them up and eat supper with them, etc - it's very very creepy. The theme is also reminiscent of a feminist classic, The Stepford Wives by Ira Levin.

The creepiness with Dradin reminded me of the creepiness I felt when I watched that video.

Magdelanye, I apologize if I might initially have linked you to the wrong thread, being the opening COSAM thread instead of the opening Dradin thread. I do link from that thread, but it is long, I realize that now, and I thought about it afterwards that the equipment you work from is not always easy. I wanted to check up on your progress but had assumed you got sidetracked by something else.

In any case, to both Magdelanye and Ruth, welcome!

Something one needs to know about Jeff Vandermeer - do not take what he writes at face value. Yes, it is true - Dradin is, like Amy says, a foolish fool.
..but there are reasons why he is a foolish fool....

For the next thread, there will be a point where Dradin takes his precious book to his room and has a little erotic fantasy and starts daydreaming about his "love". That part still belongs in this thread, but then he gets up, goes to the window, looks out, and we are transported back to his childhood via a flashback.

For that part, please go to the next thread here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Those of you who are Tolkien fans, might enjoy this: http://www.theguardian.com/environmen...

and this:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015...