Traveller’s Comments (group member since Jan 14, 2015)

Traveller’s comments from the On Paths Unknown group.

Hmmm, but I actually literally stir mine with a teaspoon, and to me, it then tastes nice.

Derek, I wonder if you could be STORING your tea (I presume it is exactly the same brand) in different enough places to make it taste different. Also, perhaps even tho the same brand, it tastes slightly different bought from different locations?

Nate D wrote: "The dollar bin at the Strand. Cheaply made recent edition, of which I think there are many since it's out of copyright.

Prophet's Paradise is worth a look. By far the most cryptic entry in the vol..."

Ah, those dollar bins can be treasure troves if one has the time to sift through the inevitable drek.

Thanks, I'll certainly look it up!

Another aspect which I had meant to mention, is the "you will die for me" aspect, which can of course be seen on different levels. The narrator obviously saw it metaphorically whereas Carmilla meant it oh so literally.

However, these days, the connection between death and sex is of course well known - I am not sure if death and sex were seen as metaphors for one another before Jung and Freud, but I do seem to remember that they were, and of course, lovers have always, through the annals of history said that "I will die for you", so I found that little touch almost humorous - though it was obviously meant to be ominous and melodramatic at the time, if the reader started to glean the 'true' context.

No doubt the reader was supposed to "see through" Carmilla before the narrator does, in order to raise the tension, but with the sophistication of the modern reader, it becomes almost a bit unbearable. This is of course not Le Fanu's fault - the novel is well-enough constructed, and I am sure it worked very well at the time that it was written.

Sorry - in your case last 6 stories, and in my case, last 5 stories. For some reason I don't have The Prophet's Paradise.

Where did you get your book from, Nate?

On another level, a Freudian or Jungian level, I would say that the narrator represents the ego, and Carmilla the id.

Carmilla represents the 'dark side' of everyone's own nature, or, she represents that which tempts but eventually drains us. This need not be sex; it can be any addiction or vice.

What is indeed rather sexist about the novella, is that it buys into a stereotype in that the victims are predominantly (but not exclusively) women. (Because women make easier targets, supposedly - they are portrayed as the "weaker" sex.) But keep in mind this was published around the mid-Victorian era, so par for the course.

Generally in folklore though, when the vampire or succubus-like creature is female, the victim tends to be male, and then it is indeed intended to represent a sexual thrall that the creature casts over the man; in fact, it was one of the devices used by the church with which to vilify women and sexuality.

Regarding the discussion in the first thread:

I re-read it today, and with Derek's accusations of prurience and titillation value in mind, I must say that I don't agree, and even found it rather hard to figure out why it should have been labeled with more emphasis on being a "lesbian" pioneer (Carmilla had had a male lover during her 'real' life, so she is bi, if anything) rather than a "vampire" pioneer, the latter which it certainly was one of the pioneers of: keep in mind that this was written long before Bram Stoker's Dracula.

I think what might give the story more of sexual sheen than it has on face-value (since there is zero, but zero "actual" sex in the story - attraction of a sort of egotistical kind yes, but not actual, physical sex) is that part of what Le Fanu is doing here, is that he is sort of conflating the vampire folklore with the succubus folklore - though he doesn't do it explicitly, since a succubus comes in the night and gives men a mighty good time in their sleep - they were probably invented to explain away men's wet dreams and soiled bedclothes in a society which frowned upon any manifestation of sexuality - even, er.. onanism. ;)

But there are never any hints of sexual ecstasy or orgasms in this story,which would qualify it for being 'prurient' or 'sexually titillating' and yes, the girls are very attracted to one another, but if such displays of affection had been deemed sexual in those days, then surely, given that it was written and published in the VICTORIAN era, then at least the male guardians of the girls in question would have been outraged, but instead, they gave the 'friendship' their every blessing. If the attraction had been deemed sexually titillating to the point of prurience, then the novella would certainly have been banned, wouldn't you think?

Oh, there is no doubt that 'vampirism' has sexual undertones, and that the attraction between the two girls, to modern eyes, has sexual undertones; but people, especially women, were always kissing and embracing in those days, without it supposedly leading to having sex.

When I was a young girl, I used to walk hand in hand or arm in arm with my friends at school; we all did it; and it never led to anything sexual. Women are generally allowed to act more affectionately by society than men are - hence, I suppose, all the contact sports men indulge in.

...and even so, I don't know how women professing love for one another is "prurient".

To me, the function of the whole attraction thing and the fact that the vampire is beautiful, adds to how treacherous this particular vampire is supposed to be; for me, the whole story revolved around how deviously the vampires acted in order to deceive their victims; a bit like the snake that mesmerizes its victim before it strikes.

Oh, and something just struck me - when they talk about "breast" in this text, they mean "chest" - the exact spot is given as at the base of the throat; just in case 'breast' was being construed as being the kind of breast that denotes the female mammary organ.

...and in any case, all that aside, what's wrong with sex, and what is wrong with depicting it in literature?

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Yeah, in Plymouth. Momentary hiccup at immigration, but fortunately Heathrow was the least busy I've ever seen it, and it only took an hour to get in (I haven't had a UK passport for 30+ years, and..."

Well, an hour under the circumstances isn't too bad, eh?


Back to Carmilla:
What a pity that people aren't generally more careful of minding spoilers. Most of the enjoyment of this story lies in knowing nothing about it; which is how I had initially read it and enjoyed it very much, but it seems that the story was spoiled for most of you before you even had a chance to read it. EDIT: I mean by reviews and descriptions in the press and on the internet. These inevitably distort one's reading and creates expectations that spoils the innocence of a first reading, which often totally destroys the intended impact of a piece of fiction.

I re-read it today, and with Derek's accusations of prurience and titillation value in mind, I must say that I don't agree that the piece is "prurient", and even found it rather hard to figure out why it should have been labeled with more emphasis on being a "lesbian" pioneer rather than a "vampire" pioneer, (after all, Sappho came LONG before Le Fanu) . It certainly was one of the pioneers of vampire fiction as we know it: keep in mind that this was written about 26 years before Bram Stoker's Dracula.

I think what might give the story more of sexual sheen than it has on face-value is that part of what Le Fanu is doing here, is that he is sort of...okay, let me continue this in the ending spoiler thread rather.

...which is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

....okay.... but reading the ending told me nothing more than I had already gleaned. What it didn't tell me, was who the "mother" and the other gentleman aid of the vampire was, who were the servants - all vampires, I suppose, whom she had created by killing them. ...but what compels them to serve her?

One thing I really find silly: how come after the first part of the General's story, even, the narrator and her father didn't immediately cry foul and point at Carmilla in shock with accusing fingers?
...and after all, the painting...

It gives you the feeling you want to shake them; like in thriller movies where they have these really dumb characters who walk into traps with open eyes. They make it obvious to the audience that the character is about to lose life or limb, so you are screaming: "Stop! Stop! Don't go there!" , but the character still dumbly goes there... :D

Last thread here, btw : https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Hmmm... and is Carmilla really as young as she appears to be?

There's a lot about identity going on on this story; the attraction between the young ladies would appear to be a sort of narcissistic thing; like that of people feeling attracted to their mirror image. Even though they don't look physically alike, Carmilla mirrors the narrator's experiences.

...so... the "dream" that the narrator thought she had as a child, could possibly actually not have happened at all - could actually have just been a suggestion planted in her mind, just as the "memories" of his "former association" with the "lady of noble birth" had been planted in General Spielsdorf's mind.

Kenneth wrote: "I'll have to pick up the other KIY stories, since I have not yet read them."

We can leave it here if you guys like; but I am interested enough in Chambers now that I'd like to read the other stories at some point in time. It doesn't have to be now.

....so, if any of you have over-arching thoughts about the first 4 stories and the conceit they create (The play, the 'reality?' of the Yellow King, and also, how other works based on it relates back) , we can do that for now - here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Nah, I had initially missed what Nate had caught - that there is a certain moment in which it is safe to stick your hand in. I suppose I had felt it might be sloppy writing - I suppose had I written it, I would have required of him to use a sort of tongs or something to remove things from the pool, rather than just his bare hand.

True, but if you think about how much has been written about the Chtulu mythos, for example, and you should see the fan lit for some video games!

I think that what makes this alluring is that it really lends itself to worldbuilding, and it's so vague and kind of unfinished, a hinted at world, that people couldn't resist wanting to fill in the gaps.

Hmm, I suppose that's a point.

Re Halloween: since I don't usually read horror, it's been a bit of a strain to get there for me too.

Hey, you in the UK now, and everything go ok?

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: " It was far too prurient for that..."

You feel? Hmm, remind me never to send you an invite to one of the GR erotica groups... <_<

Yeah, he definitely seems to have built an only hinted at world, and it is that vagueness that makes it so both maddening and effective...

As for the circularity, it starts at the very beginning already, with the organist coming in/going out at the same places repeatedly...

Hi Kenneth! Ooh, especially after that comment of yours, I'm realizing its too long since I've read this, and I'm going to have to properly re-read it... so I'll catch you guys in a few days on this... :P