L Y N N’s Comments (group member since Nov 10, 2018)

L Y N N’s comments from the Ultimate Popsugar Reading Challenge group.

Lynn wrote: "#16
Mi-ja's rubbings are critical to the novel. How do they illustrate the friendship between Mi-ja and Young-sook?

How do they help Young-sook in her process of healing?"
There were no photos or letters or anything else to document relationships between/among these women since most all of them were illiterate. The images were the documentation of their relationship throughout their lives. I truly appreciated the bit of humor regarding their rubbing of the restroom sign! LOL

Lynn wrote: "#15
The characters have lived through Japanese colonialism, the Sino-Japanese War, World War II, the Korean War, the 4.3 Incident, and the Vietnam War.

How do these larger historic events affect the characters and island life?"
There seem to be little change overall for these characters in their daily lives except the violence they experience at the hands of each occupier. They are always oppressed by someone. But I admit that learning of the senseless mass murders and random killings that occurred once the US was supposedly "in control" made me very angry. I had no idea of that prior to reading this book and I'm glad to have that information though it is further proof that the country of which I am a citizen has, at least in the past, allowed just as much violence as many other regimes...

Though there were changes imposed regarding allowing the haenyeo to work which very negatively affected their ability to eat and/or earn money. Oppression is never good. Never. Working within a society to help is tricky at best, but at least that is better than an oppressor just assuming they 'know better' and forcing restrictions, etc.

Lynn wrote: "#14
On page 120, Young-sook's mother-in-law, Do-saeng, says,
There's modern, and then there's tradition. How does daily life on Jeju change between 1938 and 2008?

Discuss architecture, the arrival of the scientists and the studies they conduct, the introduction of wet suits and television, and other changes.

How does Young-sook reconcile her traiditional haenyeo way of life with the encroaching modern world?

Do you think it's possible to modernize without sacrificing important traditional values?"
For me, the term "traditional values" is problematic. We could view prejudicial/discriminatory beliefs as "traditional," but does that mean they should continue? I believe these are questions each person must consider and evaluate to determine their own comfort level with "modern" versus "traditional." I always try to remember that what others might consider "modern" in the past may now be "traditional" or at least common and accepted.

I believe humanity evolves and changes continuously and it can be a challenge to determine our own beliefs at any one time.

Lynn wrote: "#13
The aphorism Deep roots remain tangled underground is used to describe Young-sook's and Mi-ja's friendship, and it becomes especially true when it's revealed that their children, Joon-lee and Yo-chan, are getting married. How else does this aphorism manifest itself on Jeju, especially in the context of the islanders' suffering and shared trauma?

Do you think it's true that we cannot remove ourselves from the connections of our pasts?"
This phrase immediately made me think of the fungi that live underground and extend for MILES. Also, elephants can communicate with each other over the distances that extend for MILES. I do believe we are all much more connected to each other through what I like to refer to as "the Universal flow." I believe each of out thoughts, intentions, and actions contribute to the Universal energy flow...in either negative or positive ways. That doesn't mean we can't develop ourselves to learn and change our negative characteristics into more positive ones, but I think sometimes that is easier if we can recognize connections to the past so we can decide if we wish to continue those same behaviors, or act differently.

Lynn wrote: "#12
At first it would seem that the visit of the scientists to the island is a digression. What important consequences does the visit have for Young-sook and the other haenyeo?"
I felt as if Young-sook's daughter might never have become as interested in pursuing a higher-level education and become a scientist if not for the encouragement of the scientists who visited. It also disrupted the haenyeo's life and routines and scared them with the various unknown instruments, etc. It was definitely an unwanted outside influence upon the haenyeo and as such, would probably leave "unintended consequences" in its wake.

Lynn wrote: "#11
On page 39, Young-sook's mother recites the aphorism If you plant red beans, then you will harvest red beans. Jun-bu repeats the phrase on page 199. How do these two characters interpret this saying?

How does it play out for various other characters?"
I immediately equated this saying with the concept that if you keep doing the same thing in the same way and expecting a different result, no change will happen. However, I also interpret it as you must fulfill obligations to obtain certain results. If you want 'red beans', then you must prepare to plant and raise them! 😊

Lynn wrote: "#10
Confucianism has traditionally played a lesser role on Jeju than elsewhere in Korea, while Shamanism is quite strong. What practical applications does Shamanism have for the haenyeo?

Do the traditions and rituals help the haenyeo conquer the fears and anxieties they have about their dangerous work?

Does it bring comfort during illness, death, and other tragedies?

Does Young-sook ever question her beliefs, and why?"
Years ago I heard a radio interview with a man who had lived in an isolated native village for years and experience shamanism directly. He witnessed instances that he could only term as
"miracles" occurring as a result of ritualistic practices. I do believe that there are certain people at certain times who can change themselves by simply believing they can, or believing in an outside influence that can, such as shamanism. I believe that is possible but I don't believe each individual has the capability to make such changes...

Also, there are some people who thrive on rituals (church attendance, prayer recitation, etc.) whereas for others those things are meaningless. It just depends upon the individual, IMO!

Lynn wrote: "#9
On page 189, there is mention of haenyeo from a different village rowing by Young-sook's collective to share gossip. How fast did information travel around the island and from the mainland?

Was the five-day market a good source of gossip, or were there other places that were better?

On page 201, Jun-bu mentions his concern about believing any source of news. Were there specific instances when information that was being dispersed was misleading or false?

What effects how people hear and interpret the news?"
For me, there is a huge difference between "gossip" and "news," but that is in our current world. For those unable to read and with no other connection to the outside world (via radio, TV, the internet, etc.) "gossip" was the only source of "news"/information. I have felt in the past as if "news" from 'trusted sources' was to be trusted. Though I believe now, as then, you need to be very discerning regarding the source and evaluating the authenticity. Our own beliefs, preferences, and psyche determine how we interpret most things in our life...

Lynn wrote: "#8
What is life like for men married to haenyeo?

Compare Young-sook's father, Mi-ja's husband, and Young-sook's husband."
Mi-ja's husband was, IMO, just a typical abuser and he was extremely ambitious. I felt as if he had no morals whatsoever.

Young-sook's husband was the opposite of Mi-ja's husband in almost every way. He was anxious for the females in his household to be independent and educated.

What I can remember of Young-sook's father, he was not motivated to achieve much. I think he was basically an alcoholic and then sobered up, if I recall correctly. So that was good!

Lynn wrote: "#7
The haenyeo are respected for having a matrifocal culture--a society focused on women. They work hard, have many responsibilities and freedoms, and earn money for their households, but how much independence and power within their families and their cultures do they really have?

Are there other examples from the story that illustrate the independence of women, but also their subservience?"
This is a very tough question for me to answer. There is a certain bit of independence and subservience to every role, IMO. Though it did seem as if the women were almost as subservient as vulnerable as in a patriarchal society in many ways. They were still the ones organizing and coordinating all aspects of daily life...all while working.

Lynn wrote: "#6
Mi-ja carries the burden of being the daughter of a Japanese collaborator. Is there an inevitability to her destiny just as there's an inevitability to Young-sook's destiny?

Another way of considering this aspect of the story is, are we responsible for the sins of our father (or mothers)?

Later in the novel, Young-sook will reflect on all the times Mi-ja showed she was the daughter of a collaborator. She also blames Yo-chan for being Mi-ja's son, as well as the grandson of a Japanese collaborator. Was Young-sook being fair, or had her eyes and heart been too clouded?"
I do not personally believe that we are responsible for others' sins. Each of us has the ability for independent thought and development, though I do believe personality characteristics are somewhat passed down through generations, to varying degrees within each individual. I felt Young-sook was prejudging Yo-chan very unfairly. Though I admit there have been times in my life when I had to fight to overcome my own inclination to do so...

Lynn wrote: "#5
On page 314, Clara recites a proverb attributed to Buddha: To understand everything is to forgive.

Considering the novel as a whole, do you think this is true?

Young-sook's mother must forgive herself for Yu-ri's accident, Young-sook must forgive herself for her mother's death, Gu-sun forgives Gy-ja for Wan-soon's death.

On a societal level, the people Jeju also needed to find ways to forgive each other. While not everyone on Jeju has found forgiveness, how and why do you think these communities, neighbors, and families have been able to forgive?

Do you think anything can be forgiven eventually?

Should it?

Does Young-sook take too long to forgive, given what she witnessed?"
I think each of us has a different capacity for forgiveness. Should EVERYTHING be forgiven? I honestly cannot answer that question with an unequivocal "YES"! Though the longer I live the more I realize and come to believe that I should be able to do so. But I have yet to reach that point. I do believe that holding on to negative emotions is harmful to us in the end.

Lynn wrote: "#4
In many ways the novel is about blame, guilt, and forgiveness. In the first full chapter, Yu-ri has her encounter with the octopus.

What effect does this incident have on various characters moving forward: Mother, Young-sook, Mi-Ja, Do-saeng, Gu-ja, Gu-sun, and Jun-bu.

Young-sook is also involved in the tragic death of her mother. To what extent is she responsible for these sad events?

Is her sense of guilt justified?"
I felt Young-sook handled these tragedies well, considering. Especially given that the new leader/her mother-in-law didn't allow her to forget and kept implying she was at fault. I'm certain it would be difficult not to experience "survivor's guilt" and question your own part in the events: following Yu-ri back into the water when she knew she shouldn't, perhaps she could have used her knife more effectively to release her mother...

Lynn wrote: "#3
On page 17, Young-sook's mother recites a traditional haenyeo aphorism: Every woman who enters the sea carries a coffin on her back."
I felt this referred to the extreme dangers they could encounter every single time they dove.

"But she also says the sea is like a mother (page 22)."
My interpretation of this was that it did provide them with food and money.

"Then, on page 71, Grandmother says, "The ocean is better than your natal mother. The sea is forever."
I took this to mean that it is (literally) always there, whereas a mother can die/disappear.

"How do these contradictory ideas play out in the novel?

What do they say about the dangerous work of the haenyeo?"
We witness some of the divers suffering severe injury or even dying in the sea. But they also make a living by collecting both flora and fauna from the sea. It can give but it can also take away...

Lynn wrote: "#2
When Young-sook and Mi-Ja are 15, Young-sook's mother says to them: "You are like sisters, and I expect you to take care of each other today and every day as those tied by blood would do" (page 13)"
My first thought was, "That doesn't necessarily mean they will get along!" I know many siblings who are estranged from each other as adults... I also felt this put a ton of pressure on both girls, but especially Young-sook since she was the one expected to share her family with another person.

"How are these words of warning?"
My comment above. Just because you are biologically linked to someone doesn't mean it will be easy to have a close relationship. Personalities can be very different and not necessarily compatible.

"The friendship between Young-sook and Mi-Ja is just one of many examples of powerful female relationships in the novel. Discuss the ways in which female relationships are depicted and the important role they play on Jeju."
I felt the depiction of various friendships among the females were very realistic overall.

Teri wrote: "#1
The story begins with Young-sook as an old woman, gathering algae on the beach. What secrets or clues about the past and present are revealed in the scenes that take place in 2008?

Why do we understand the beginning of the novel only after we have finished reading it?

It really made for an intriguing start to the book. Why did Young-Sook lie to Mi-Ja’s family? What happened to their relationship? I’ve enjoyed that aspect of this book more than any other, probably because I am waiting to see what happens (I’m only 3/4ths the way through)."
I agree that the beginning scene really gave a great start to the book and pulled me right in, asking all those same questions!

"#2
When Young-sook and Mi-Ja are 15, Young-sook's mother says to them: "You are like sisters, and I expect you to take care of each other today and every day as those tied by blood would do" (page 13)

How are these words of warning?

The friendship between Young-sook and Mi-Ja is just one of many examples of powerful female relationships in the novel. Discuss the ways in which female relationships are depicted and the important role they play on Jeju.

This was once again a foreshadowing of something that tears them apart at some future point. It keeps the mystery alive with these types of comments about a forever friendship thrown in every once in a while. Up to where I am now in the book, I think the author is doing a really good job showing how easily friendships can change."
Ooohhh, yes! She does depict changes really well, and mainly due to the fact that we don't always know exactly what the other person is going through in their life, regardless of the closeness of the relationship.

"The relationships of the haenyeo show how important female friendships can be. It is the place they can be most themselves. At least that’s what I’ve found in my life. Often other types of relationships require you to be a certain type of women, and those are all part of who you are, but good female friends tend to love the good and tolerate the bad parts of you. You don’t have to hide any part of yourself. The haenyeo have such a dangerous job that it is vital for them to have friends that understand it."
That can be so true, that we are role-playing many times in relationships. I don't believe males typically do that as much... Though I admit I rarely change to play a role. And I have discovered males who accept me as I am, warts and all, just as with my closest female relationships. My husband, for one!

"It took me awhile in my life to realize that very close friendships can come and go. Situational friendships, I call them - friends that are needed for a particular part of your life, but fade away as things change. They can be just as important as the lifelong friend that we all want but rarely find."
While I don't know your age, Teri, and don't need to, I very much agree with this assessment. I am in my mid-60s and it is interesting to me to note the various relationships I have had throughout my life that served me (and hopefully the other person) well at that point in my life, but certainly did not last over time. I used to grieve those relationships but now I realize that is just how it is. I make it a point now to reach out and try to form a relationship when I'm interested, but if the other person doesn't respond I do not consider it a rejection, but simply assume they were not as attracted to me as I was to them, and go on with my life... It took many years to reach that point however! LOL

Stephanie wrote: "1. Have you read any other of Lisa See's books? If so, what was your reaction to it/them? I have not, but would love to in the future. Lisa is an amazing writer with a gift for details."
I am definitely looking forward to reading more of her writing!

"2. What expectations do you have for this book knowing that it could be used to fulfill POPSUGAR 2022 prompt #3 A book about or set in a nonpatriarchal society? I expected it to be about strong women and I was correct."
👍

"3. Have you already fulfilled this prompt? Or do you have a different book selected for prompt #3? I chose this book for this prompt because of the Monthly Read selection."
Me as well.

"4. Nonpatriarchal society: a society where men are not the ones holding power. Do you have any thoughts regarding the fact that there are very few such societies/cultures in our world today? The world was founded on the belief that men are the holding powers and women are a supplemental element to help men reach their highest level of power (which technically means, women have all the power, but I'll save that for another day). In order to have a thriving nonpatriarchal society today, would require a completely different mindset."
I love your parenthetical comment! Sounds as if that would prove to be a very interesting discussion! I agree. I feel as if the world overall may be moving in that direction. But I tend to be an eternal optimist... 😊

"5. Do you believe societies around the world could evolve into nonpatriarchal societies? Or do you believe men will retain power, and thereby control? It is possible, but as mentioned above, it would take a completely different mindset and changes to how we view the roles of men and women."
Agreed...

AF wrote: "This book was so good. It gave me all the feels as well. Those women divers worked so hard and gave up so much so that their family could have more.

I especially appreciated the parts when the women would laugh about how silly men were.

My heart broke over what happened to them all during the war. So much pain and suffering, yet determination to continue on. I can't imagine how they moved past the atrocities they witnessed."
I honestly have been suffering from a book hangover with this one. I think it just hit me at a time when I found it very difficult to read about and then not obsess about the atrocities/killings. It has been very difficult for me to 'get over' this book... I actually shed some tears at several different times while reading it. It really hit me hard...

Teri wrote: "I'm listening to this on audiobook and had no idea how to spell the names, so this thread has helped me a lot with that."
It's so funny you mention this, because I keep thinking I would like to listen to parts of the audiobook just to know exactly how some of these names/words are pronounced! LOL

Books listing...

Popsugar: 33/50
ATY: 41/52
RHC: 12/24

FINISHED:
Writers & Lovers by Lily King ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ King is now one of my all-time favorite authors. This is the third book of hers I’ve read and I loved all three. I can especially appreciate the fact that each one is very different from the other two. Her writing skill kinda reminds me of Taylor Jenkins Reid in that way. (Fulfilled that cutlery on the cover/title prompt!)
POPSUGAR: NEW #14, #36, #40-2016: prompt #14 Read a book you can finish in one day
ATY: #1-Adam-Casey’s landlord, #4-A book whose author is younger than you, #15, #17, #29, #34, #36-Bob and Ophelia, #40-The Lovers, Strength, Death, Judgment, The World, #41

A couple of short children's books as pallet cleansers before Murderbot!
Johnny's in the Basement by Louis Sachar ⭐️ did not work for me at all! It was so nonsensical and absurd that…well…it just didn’t make any sense and wasn’t even humorous to me. I would love to know what actual children think of it! LOL
POPSUGAR: #24, #36, #38-Johnny’s 11th birthday, #40-2015: prompt #6 A book written by an author under 30 years of age-Sachar was 27 when it was published in 1981
ATY: #14-151 ratings, #21-Dog, #25-126 pages, #31-1981, #40-Judgment, The World, #41
RHC: #24-2016 Read a middle grade novel

Wayside School Is Falling Down (Wayside School #2) by Louis Sachar ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ was a good read. I am relatively certain that most children would totally enjoy this! It was silly but also depicted acceptance of all, regardless of our individual quirks!
POPSUGAR: #24, #25-“Benjamin”, #26, #40-2015: prompt #12 A book of short stories
ATY: #1-Todd, #3, #7-the substitute teacher, #21-Shoe, #25-152 pages, #31-1989, #34, #40-Strength, Justice, Judgment
RHC: #24-2018: prompt #15 A book you can read in one sitting

All Systems Red (Murderbot Diaries #1) by Martha Wells ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ was an amazing read the second time around even if I already knew the (shocking to me the first time around) ending! I just connect with Wells’ writing on so many levels!
POPSUGAR: NEW #5, #9, #22, #24, #25, NEW #27-2018 Hugo Award for Best Novella, #29-I read Artificial Condition in 2021, #31, #40-2015: prompt #7 A book with nonhuman characters, #46
ATY: #2-I read Artificial Condition in 2021, #4-A book whose author is younger than you, #7, #13, #15, 25-152 pages, #36-Something BIG attacked two of the researchers, #40-Strength, Justice, Death, Judgment, The World, #46, #49
RHC: #11, #24-2018: prompt #3 A classic of genre fiction—SFF

Artificial Condition (Murderbot Diaries #2) by Martha Wells ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ was I think even more enjoyable the second time around! Love me some ART!! LOL
POPSUGAR: #9, #22, #25, #27-2019 Hugo Award for Best Novella, #31, #40- 2016: prompt #20 Science Fiction, #46
ATY: #1-Tapan, #2-I first read this in 2021, #4-A book that won the Hugo Award, #7, #13, #15, #25-158 pages, #33, #40-Strength, Justice, Death, Judgment, The World, #44, #46, #49
RHC: #11, #24-2017: prompt #9 Read a book you’ve read before

Rogue Protocol (Murderbot Diaries #3) by Martha Wells ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ was extraordinary! I adore Murderbot’s loyalty to the humans, well, the ones he wants to protect, but even he submits to leaving the two ‘hired guns’ alive in the end. Especially since they can serve as witnesses and confirm the others’ claims. And now back to Mensah! YAY!!
POPSUGAR: #22, #24, #25, #27-2021 Hugo Award for Best Series, #29-I read Artificial Condition in 2021, #31, #40-2015: prompt #7 A book with nonhuman characters, #46
ATY: #1-Abene, #2-I read Artificial Condition in 2021, #4-A book whose author is younger than you, #7, #25-158 pages, #33, #40- Strength, Justice, Death, Judgment, The World, #44, #46, #49
RHC: #11, #24-2018: prompt #15 A book that can be read in one sitting

Exit Strategy (Murderbot Diaries #4) by Martha Wells ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ OMG! I didn’t think there was any way out for Murderbot this time around! His determination, along with that of the human “friends” he has adds up to beating absolutely incredible odds! YAY! I love Dr. Mensah’s apologies and the way they all pitch in to try to help him obtain options for his future.
POPSUGAR: #9, #22, #24, #25, #27-2021 Hugo Award for Best Series, #29-I read Artificial Condition in 2021,#31, #40-2021: prompt #15 A book with a black-and-white cover, #46
ATY: , #2-I read Artificial Condition in 2021, #4-A book whose author is younger than you, #7, #13, #15, #25-172 pages, #40-Strength, Justice, Death, Judgment, The World, #46, #49
RHC: #11, #24-2020: prompt #9 The last book in a series
POPSUGAR: #9, #22, #25, #27-2019 Hugo Award for Best Novella, #31, #40- 2016: prompt #20 Science Fiction, #46
ATY: #1-Tapan, #2-I first read this in 2021, #4-A book that won the Hugo Award, #7, #13, #15, #25-158 pages, #33, #40-Strength, Justice, Death, Judgment, The World, #44, #46, #49
RHC: #11, #24-2017: prompt #9 Read

Home: Habitat, Range, Niche, Territory (Murderbot Diaries #4.5) by Martha Wells ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ Dr. Mensah’s first name is Ayda! I like that! And this is a short story in-between installments from her point of view. Glad I read it before launching into Network Effect. Not counting for any challenges.

CONTINUING:
*Network Effect (Murderbot Diaries #5) by Martha Wells
I admit to briefly wondering if Wells could keep me engaged and focused over the course of 352 pages rather than 150+ pages. I needn’t have wondered about that! I wanted to finish this so badly last night and I just kept reading until finally exhaustion forced me to quit and when I looked at the clock I was amazed to see I had stayed up until 1AM! (That is really late for me!)
Furious Hours: Murder, Fraud, and the Last Trial of Harper Lee by Casey Cep
*Yes, Chef by Marcus Samuelsson
*Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston.
*Hidden Valley Road: Inside the Mind of an American Family by Robert Kolker
*Paradise by Toni Morrison

PLANNED:
Fugitive Telemetry (Murderbot Diaries #6) by Martha Wells
Then I’ll have Murderbot out of my system for awhile! 😊
1 more for March Buddy Reads:
*London Bridges (Alex Cross #10) by James Patterson
POPSUGAR April Monthly Group Read:
A Good Girl's Guide to Murder by Holly Jackson
1 for April Buddy Reads:
Mary, Mary (Alex Cross #11) by James Patterson
To complete some 2021 year-long challenges:
1) *Marjorie Morningstar by Herman Wouk
2) *The Beautiful and Damned by F. Scott Fitzgerald
To complete the 2021 Read Harder Challenge:
*Ordinary Girls by Jaquira Díaz
*Death Comes to Pemberley by P.D. James
*Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff