Ken’s Comments (group member since Jan 21, 2020)

Ken’s comments from the The Obscure Reading Group group.

Sending my best wishes your way as well, Darrin. Hope you're up and at 'em again soon!

The June poll is up at the bottom of this group homepage.

To explore the nominees, click COMMENTS AND DETAILS below the poll, then covers of the six individual books under poll.

If you accidentally vote for a book, no worries. Simply click your actual choice after the fact and the software will switch your vote.

Thank you to those who sent in titles.

Plateresca wrote: "Hi everybody! I'm finishing leading a read in another group and I think we could read the first volume of the 'Journey' in May before the official group read in June, what do you think? And then ma..."

I hope some have contacted you about this, Plateresca. My reading commitments (not to mention RL) have complicated my joining such an ambitious project, but I wish that stout party of readers the best!

Dawn wrote: "I share Ken’s fantasy. All this greed for money and power is a contemptible trait of man. It never ceases to amaze me how similar our lives really are to those who lived over a century ago despite ..."

Any old book that is deemed "classic" depends on the sameness you point out. Sameness in a world of constant change.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Ours is a God of Irony.

Dianne, I agree with your last sentiment about poverty. I often wonder how far money could put a dent in it -- or is it like cancer research, where gains only seem to be limited.

My fantasy is that all the money poured into political campaigns be diverted to social causes: housing and food for the poor/hungry, education along with before and after care plus respecting teachers with professional-grade pay. treatment for the mentally ill and those addicted to drugs, alcohol, gambling and all that nether world kind of stuff.

Really. Have you seen the dollar amounts that companies, lobbyists, and political action committees dole out? And for what? Mostly politicians who are useless as legislators and use their positions to grandstand for the camera (think monkeys in front of mirrors).

OK, off my soap box. Nether Worlds come in many flavors, I fear. I wonder if Gissing was politically-minded, too, in his battle.

Nice thoughts, Dawn. Did it open and end in a cemetery? I don't recall that interesting fact. Of course, Great Expectations opens similarly with the Magwitch scene. Not sure if there's a Hardy start by a grave. Seems as good a place to start as to end, in books and other matters.

Interesting that Gissing took Italian for the sake of Dante. I can relate, having read my share of poetry in translation. I'm always asking myself if the poor poet is being shortchanged by the language change. How can it help but be, especially in poetry?

Re: your final thought. Interesting (but true to life) that people can be victims of idealism. When you think about it, this occurs more frequently than you'd expect. Idealism, as Snowden proves, is a trickly thing and hardly an absolute. Definitions. They're so important (and not just to authors of dictionaries!).

Thanks for your great insights, Plateresca. As is always true on any discussions of last book segments here, readers can weigh in whenever they finish the book, whether that's tomorrow, next week or the end of the month.

There are authors who appreciate the complexities in making statements about "the poor," and then there are those who charge in with generalizations they consider "truth."

Trouble is, when it comes to poverty and the two sides of money, truths are few and far between. Or maybe too many in number. I was reading Camus' Journals this morning and came across this quote:

"For rich people, the sky is just an extra, a gift of nature. The poor, on the other hand, can see it as it really is: an infinite grace."

Camus was hailing back to his own impoverished childhood. He was raised in a rural setting (Algiers), setting quite a contrast to Gissing's London setting. In The Nether World, the poverty is handcuffed to the city -- what Blake called those "dark Satanic mills" of the Industrial Era (fertile romping ground for Dickens' moral outrage, too).

Still, it should be noted that there are many versions of what he's calling a "nether" world, some of them worthy of nostalgia and romanticism (as seen in Camus, a man not noted for capital-R Romanticism).

I agree, though, that Jane seems to be the key character here (i.e. the author's compass).

I found the second half of this book quite compelling, as by then Gissing had all his plots and subplots in the air and each character willing to surprise. How about you?

Some possible lines of thought:

1. Clara vs. Jane. Which character is more realistic? More sympathetic? Did you, like me, learn that "vitriol" was more than an abstract thing?

2. Jos. Snowden -- the Good, the Bad, or the Ugly? Make your own spaghetti western with this guy. I didn't know what to make of him.

3. Kirkwood. He sort of lost me down the stretch of this book. Or maybe Gissing's use of his character lost me. I said, "Really?" when he married "a family," so to speak.

4. Bob Hewitt. Pitiful or pitiable? I always have to look up the difference, but he's as good a poster boy for Nether Worlds as you could want.

5. Clem. To me, she took on less and less significance, even though I'm almost sure Gissing intended the opposite. Am I wrong on this?

6. Theme. I mean, on the Nether World, as seen through the lens of Michael Snowden's unusual will, Jane's reaction to it (or ability to execute it), Kirkwood's take on it, etc. This hit me in interesting ways, right down to how I feel when I see a homeless person begging on the street. I want to help, but also feel like money might feed a habit that isn't called "food." Is Gissing going after this vibe or something bigger, like you can't help people who won't help themselves (or, better yet, you're a fool to make such generalizations about the poor)?

The floor is open...

Plateresca wrote: "Ken, do you mean the passage I quoted in my message 26, about music and destruction? What did you think of it?"

Oops. Yes, that's the flavor and gist. I thought the chapter as a whole, though, came across as something that could have been cut, almost like a rant. Maybe it was necessary, though.

Did anyone else note the authorial soapbox that, more than any other chapter, shouted at us in "Saturnalia, Io"? I made a note of the chapter title, but maybe it's just me.

Sara wrote: "Cherisa, I'm right there with you in my reaction to Gissing's comments about Mrs. Hewitt. UGH! I absolutely cringed, and definitely swore aloud at him.

That said, in spite of the absolutely ceasel..."

You all are remembering a happier Dickens than I recall reading. I think of Hard Times and A Tale of Two Cities and recall little light and happiness in either. About the only happy Chuck D that comes to me is his early effort The Pickwick Papers, which was a rum-go (as Sam Veller kept saying).

And for the record, I find Gissing's over-the-top soap narrative a lot of fun. Just not Pickwick kind of fun. A yellow journalism kind of fun, maybe?

Kathleen wrote: "I expected this to be dreary, and thought I might not like it, so I've been very pleasantly surprised, and find lots of positives here.

Excellent points about the comparisons with Jane Eyre and Gr..."



You find Jane a complex character? To me, there's not enough of her to develop. In the beginning, she's the Cinderella stock character punching bag for step-sister Clem and the mean old stepmother with the Dickensian name of Peckover (though nothing beats "Pennyloaf").

Then she's just a quiet, demure, kind thing once Grandpa arrives. The model of quiet, gentle, unassuming female characters meant to be seen and not heard. So far, at least.

In my mind, then: So far, so stock.

Kathleen. Thanks for reminding me that I've never read Wuthering Heights. Maybe there's a phobia I can use by way of excuse? Fear of Wuthering Heights?

Dianne. I, too, noticed the butt-inski habits of Gissing on those two counts. Many references to the title (OK, we get it) and then, the authorial intrusions for commentary. I'm more forgiving of the latter as I think it is a Victorian thing, like Prince Albert reading in the can.

Sue. I see as many redeeming light characters as I do mean-spirited ones. Chiefly Kirkwood, the poor guy. But yes, Clara, too. Jane, of course, who might be called a stereotypical sort in the same mold as Tiny Tim. John Hewitt, though he says some dumb things and takes some dumb actions, does them out of clumsy love.

Plateresca. I see this comment box has become a confession box. I've yet to read Bleak House. I suppose it'll be easier reading the Bronte first, as it is shorter, but I am allergic to heaths.

BarbaraW -- Enjoying more than Dickens? Good for you!

Our discussion begins with the first half of George Gissing's THE NETHER WORLD. Feel free to ask any question or make any observation you wish. Some ideas:

1. Similarities to and differences from Charles Dickens

2. Characterization -- realistic characters vs. stock characters

3. Social commentary

4. The architecture of Gissing's plot

5. Writing style

What did you like best and least in the first half of the book? Which characters speak to you (positively or negatively) more than others and why? What connections to the real world did you make while reading the first half of the book?

And so on and so forth!

...and names.

I'll put a thread up before I retire for the evening.

Oh, the horror of reading schedules!

No reason you can't read on to the end, Sue.

You'll just have to confine your Week #1 comments to the first half of the book, is all. Easy like peas (-y) on Sunday morning.

I'm about 50 pp. from the end of the Week #1 segment. It's so Dickensian and, like the master, Mr. Gissing knows how to soap up his operas!

Week One: Feb. 1 -- Feb. 7

Chapters I through XXI ("Death the Reconciler")

************************************************************

Week Two: Feb. 8 -- Feb. 14

Chapters XXII ("Waiting from Ambush") through END.

Ginny wrote: "For an "obscure" author, Gissing has certainly been showing up in my reading groups lately. I did read about half of The Odd Women, and didn't care for it, but now am planning a group..."

Agree, Ginny. As I said, not one but TWO Gissings were nominated in the first round. Writer, meet moment.

Reading schedule coming this week. Simply going to divide it into two pieces so there'll be just over 200 pp. per week.

For reasons beyond my ken, I cannot read a book online, either. And my ILL failed me. They have a few other Gissing titles, including Grub Street, but nary a Nether World.