Carol’s Comments (group member since Jun 05, 2013)

Carol’s comments from the Ask Carol McGrath group.

And Kathleen that is a fascinating story. It ought to be written into a novel one day. Thank you for sharing it.

Anna, this discussion is becoming exciting because I am learning new things too. Kristin Lavransdotter is one of my all time favourite novels. I re read it. I also love Katherine by Anya Seton. I shall google the laws on women's protection. I am now writing in 1085 when Domesday came. My heroine is the lady of Castle Richmond in Yorkshire and she was King Harold of England'syoungest daughter. I can use this information. So do tell us more and about other great historical novels too.

Wonderful. I read Medieval Irish History at Queens Belfast and this takes me back. Thank you for posting this story. I agree with you. The Normans changed a lot. They were interesting conquerors too. Their castles in Ireland too and the abbeys changed the landscape. We could get onto castles. I am writing about Richmond in Yorkshire at the moment. I wonder how they looked inside then! Very different to how we see them now I suspect.

Possibly, I don't know about Northern Europe enough. I do know that women in theory had more rights here before the Norman take over than after it. The Normans followed primogeniture which had been introduced in France. I know the Normans were influenced by the previous Carolingian laws too and here they kept some basic English law codes bar inheritance. In fact, second sons of nobility made their way in the Church and others became knights fighting for others! I love a book called Kristan Lavransdatter and will add it to our bookshelf here. It is later, set in medieval Norway.

Sex and Marriage

'Just as in modern England, a relationship between couples could be romantic, full of love, or it could lead to heartbreak, deception and recrimination'-Daily Life in Anglo-Saxon England by Sally Crawford is good on this subject. Anglo-Saxon poetry is filled with such stories and warnings. Here are a few titles of such poems or maxims-Beowulf, translated by Seamus Heaney, The Wife's Lament and the poem Wulf and Eadwacer. Several Anglo-Saxon texts denounce bigamy including a late Anglo-Saxon text where one woman married two brothers! Sally Crawford states that there is very little evidence for the form taken by marital ties or associated rituals for pre Christian marriages. We have to use informed guess work here. The Church seriously got involved in marriage ceremonies during the 11thC. The bride-price has been interpreted in terms of the 'sale' of a woman but a weight of evidence suggests that married Anglo-Saxon women had an independent economic status from their husbands-the 'bride-price' may in fact have been a guarantee of good faith and good behaviour on the part of the bride-groom. On the morning 'after' the bride-groom had to provide his wife with a morgenifu, morning gift, a sum of money which was absolutely her own property. The husband had no further control over this gift. It gave the Anglo-Saxon woman economic and social independence in compared to women in later stages of English history. Countess Gytha in The Handfasted Wife had Exeter as her gift, an important and wealthy trading city-port in Wessex which became Godwin territory.

Any questions or discussion??

Pins found in graves were fasteners for veils. Single pins were found near the jaws, at the foreheads and under the skulls. They might have fastened veils or hoods worn as in every day life. Head dresses may have had ornaments too. Long white and even colourful headdresses were attached to fillets and sometimes they had artificially curled hair at the forehead peeping out. These were bands to hold a veil in place. A veil which is squarish rather than long is held by and angel over the head of Queen Alfgifu in the Stowe manuscript miniature. There is a suggestion that queens wore distinctive headgear, maybe a veil of this kind held by an elaborate fillet or even a crown. A veil could be decorated at the front and hanging down at the back leaving the neck exposed. The veil came to stand for religious life . We speak of taking the veil today. Then the religious veil was called a rift. The cuffie was secular. Often the best fillet might be bequeathed as a special possession. Women in Anglo-Saxon England later are depicted sometimes with their hair in a plait over the crown. We see this in pictures of the Virgin from this time. The headdresses of late Anglo-Saxon England were loose. The veil, wimple or hood would then be pinned to the coil of hair.

Thank you for reading and enjoying the novel Kathleen. Hope this answers the question. The information comes from Gale R Owen- Crocker, Dress in Anglo-Saxon England.

I wonder if we could have a chat about early medieval costume, women and men. Hair and headgear, women and men. To kick off , uncovered heads and loose hair on women were considered undesirable. No surprises there. The headcloth concealed hair, neck and shoulders. There is variation in the way the headdress is depicted by Anglo-Saxon artists. How much freedom did women have with personal style? What do you think. Also as readers and maybe also writers do you really enjoy descriptions of clothes, hair fashions, and how do you like these to be integrated into the fabric of a story? Third, have you a memorable fashion or hair description from historical fiction?

Oh Edith Swan-Neck of course but she is closely followed by Gytha , his mother. She seems formidable. I loved the way she gathered noblewomen around her in Exeter and resisted William's tax. It was well recorded in Oderic Vitalis and has a mention in The A S Chronicles. I would love to know more about Algyth though.

I think you especially could use this as you are a tad earlier!

I think that is the most popular theory. Either that or the Odo one suggested by Helen.

Oh and I am convinced re the elopement date and that the Anselm letters refer to the second Alain, Niall in my version.

I call the half brother, for that is his status, Niall as it is a Celtic version of Black and he is Breton as you know . Why not use this too! As long as one explains in a fictive way as I did re Elditha or in notes fine. This is fiction we are writing, informed for sure but it is story telling. Shall have to read the book.

David A E Pelteret on medieval slavery. Brilliant.

One wonders exactly where Harold's new wife Algyth was on the eve of Hastings. She could have been at Nazing, in the North or at Chester. Nazing indeed is the popular Edith Swan-Neck residence. It is just not necessarily where she was that year following Harold's coronation. Equally, although Waltham is very significant where is there a chronicle entry that even suggests she ever lived there? It comes out of traditional legend. And it especially is a story loved by Victorians. Yet it is , of course, possible too.

I think the fact she had title to a great deal of land means she could have been anywhere . If she is Edgyth the Fair of Domesday probably she moved around. They did move around estates. The Nazing idea is because there is the Godwin connection with Waltham Abbey and Nazing is recorded in Domesday too. Harold evidently did marry a second time that year. Why should she necessarily be at Nazing particularly if she had estates and two houses in Canterbury. Look at my blog on Edith Swan-Neck. I have quoted from Domesday. There is a lot of romantic legend around Edith Swan-Neck and Harold. Most of this was instilled into us by Victorians viewing the period romantically. One such was Edward Bulmer- Lytton . I don't dispute the romance. Simply we don't know. I have read all the books on the Tapestry and found Bridgeford very plausible. I also have seen for myself in John of Wocester chronicle entry re Ulf and his long captivity. He was knighted after William's death and freed by Robert Cuthose. Not sure myself exactly when Ulf was taken. But the Bridgeford idea certainly appeals and that vignette on the Tapestry inspired The Handfasted Wife. I do know when Ulf was released as it is recorded even though I view much of early primary source material with cynicism. It contained agendas. So really we do not know. And, of course, I think novelists are not historians and sure, spin away, take an idea whether Nazing or Reredfelle or Crowhurst and run with it. But preserve whatever atmosphere that is faithful to the historical era that you can via research as a writer of fiction.

It was Andrew Bridgeford who wrote so well about The Bayeux Tapestry and about the House that Burned. I think it is open season with theories about women in the tapestry. I think that there are some superb theories about them. What do you think? Join in please.

Oh I meant to say that Richard Sharpe in Haskins Journal thought that maybe the Anselm letters referred to Alan's half brother also called Alan and who inherited Richmond. That was when she was told to go back to Wilton. All this is so long ago that it is hard to work out historical truths but these events make fabulous stories.

Oh now I have to read it, absolutely have to. You know there is new research suggesting he eloped with Gunnhild in the 1070s not later. She took up with his brother after his death in 1089. In my second book I do imagine Gunnhild at Castle Richmond and maybe a tad disappointed with the elopement. And the marriage. The research in Haskins Journal suggests that they had a daughter, Maud who married William D'Aincourt of Lincoln. Do you know anything about this story?

Ah well yes, novels are novels and in novels there is a bit of spinning and speculation , though I would like to imagine it was so. Chosen King takes us as far as mthe Battle and is a lovely book. Novels are wonderful but we don't really know. We can only make informed speculation. Viking Ireland is a fabulous topic. You must visit Dublinia, the Viking exhibition in Dublin if you have not done so yet. It is excellent.

Paula wrote: "According to the laws of Alfred, women were not to be forced to marry without their consent. However I am sure that it was often a case of "you need to marry this man,Aldith for the sake of peace."..."

This is indeed true. Absolutely. In fact though.....