Russell’s answer to “WHEN THIS BOOK WILL BE OUT ? I AM REALLY NERVOUS THAT WE'LL WAIT A FEW MORE YEARS LIKE THE PREVI…” > Likes and Comments
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Calls people idiots and then compares constructing a 500 page fantasy novel to grilling up a steak.
Brendan: It's called an analogy. They don't have to be of similar scope, only of similar structure. If you had a good English teacher, you might've learned this. Maybe you should take some remedial post-secondary education classes at your local community college; you obviously need it.
Russell, actually they are not our bitch and they do not rely on us as customers. Do you think that there is a financial motivation for Rothfuss or GRRM to write another book in a timely matter? These authors are under no obligation to us as readers at this point. If you are fed up with any delays then simply take a stand that you will not read their future novels. These authors don't need our money any longer at this point so any further book they publish should be a welcome gift.
Aron: If you say so, man. I'm pretty sure they want the money.
And quite frankly, if they don't want the money, that's fine. I still have a right to be pissed off about it.
@Russell. It is fine that you are annoyed and it is also ok that you loose interest. No one argues with that. The only thing people complain about that you feel that you should vent your frustration at the author.
If your biggest threat against the author is that you would loose interest - loose it already. In my experience however most people don't loose interest. They are very interested and just frustrated.
But then we are back to you, as the consumer, not being entitled to anything. You don't have a right to a new book or to a timely delivery. Your analogy with the steak is also wrong, as you didn't "order" a new book, nor did the author take your order nor promise you a certain delivery. By the very nature of writing, this is simply not possible.
So - just calm down, wait for the next book. And if you need something to do - reread the first 3. After all, they are excellent.
I think you have a fair point, Russell. While the person who placed this question in the first place did not do so in a way which inspires sympathy with them at all, BECAUSE WHO EVER GIVES A F*** ABOUT ANYONE WHO TYPES LIKE THIS?, the underlying point is that when a book that is part of a series is announced to be published at a certain time, it should be reasonably expected that it will be published around then - perhaps a little delayed, but within a reasonable time. If that time is not accurate and is the result of publishers or book sites making stuff up, then the author's own information should reflect that. A lot of people will not agree with analogy of the steak, due to the skill and effort required to write a (good) book. However, with a steak, if you are waiting for an hour you are rightly annoyed. With a book, the time will go up considerably, but waiting a couple of years is not unreasonable. Three years perhaps begins to stretch things, and after that one begins to wonder what the hell is going on. Now, this is only so in a series. This does not happen in stand alone books. Wow... I really wish author X would put out a new book. I have not read anything by them for AGES. I know that feeling. However, perhaps they got tired of writing, perhaps they are researching something new, perhaps they have some personal issues to deal with, perhaps they are suffering from writers block, perhaps they are enjoying their pay check and spending a few years on a beach and living a life. Whatever. However, when this happens in the middle of a series - and fantasy is a genre which trilogies and longer abound - then there is a compact between the writer and the reader that they will produce the whole of the story in a reasonable period of time. Stand alone books do not have this. Series do. So, to those people who say that we are not ordering the book, I say that in fact we are. Based on the sales of the previous books, publishers will extend advances to writers to produce the full series. This money came from the readers. This is the compact.
Authors are not our bitches, but neither should we treated like bitches for being foolish enough to start reading a series with the reasonable expectation that it will be finished within our lifetimes. Now, in my opinion Lynch does not fall into this category. There was quite a long wait for the Republic of Thieves after a short gap between Lies and Red Seas, which was a bit odd, as we generally expect books to come out at a similar pace - be it one a year, every two years, or every four years. There are well known reasons for this delay and it was quite brave of the author to open his personal life to the public to let us know what the issues were. If Thorn comes out somewhere between the two, I shall be perfectly happy. The current wait does not seem excessive at this stage - and I could probably wait a further year happily enough. Beyond that, I will begin to get frustrated and that frustration may affect my enjoyment of the next book, which in turn may result in my feeling like abandoning the series, which if I am representative of a portion of the reading base means a drop in sales, which could mean a direct loss to the author - we return to the compact.
Now, as I said, for me Lynch has not reached this point yet, and I totally agree with a number of people in that I would rather see a really good book and wait longer than see a crappy book sooner. There is a law of diminishing returns here and at some point the graph curve no longer means the benefit is going to meet the waiting. When this exactly will differ for different people - but I am forced to remember that there are supposed to be a further three in this series following Thorn and if we say 4 years between books, then I am looking at a good twelve years before I get to finish this series. There are a lot of authors out there who seem to have this problem more significantly, and I certainly hope that Lynch does not join them. He may not be the fastest writer, but I am currently with him - unlike a couple of other authors I have largely abandoned due to becoming disillusioned with the ridiculous wait for the books and when the next part finally does arrive it fails to meet any sort of standard at all. I know someone who refuses to read any series unless they have been published in full. I do not want to become this kind of person, but I must say there is a benefit in knowing that when you sit down to something that you know you will be able to finish it... One of my greatest literary sorrows is the late, underappreciated Hugh Cook only wrote ten books in his Chronicles of an Age of Darkness series, and never got to write more due to first the publisher failing to pick him up for more and then later his untimely death.
So walk out and don't return. You haven't paid for this book yet, Lynch owes you nothing.
Anastasia: That's one opinion. Another opinion is that he sold the thing as a series of books, which implies a completion and reasonable timeliness. I am with Brandon Sanderson on this one; if you do a series, you set an expectation and you should honor that expectation.
Russell's simplistic, capitalistic, uncompassionate, and entitled comment is just...sad. You're a sad person, Russell, and I'm sorry for whoever hurt you.
Russell - Series end prematurely all the time. Do you scream at TV writers whose shows get cancelled without another season? Authors who die and leave series unfinished? You get the book you pay for, when you pay for it. You hope there will be more, but you're not paying for a promise of more. That's why you can't pre-order books before they're written.
Brandon Sanderson is a brilliant author, who I'm also a huge fan of, and since he's incredibly prolific, he's a good one to like if you read quickly. I'd suggest you use this time to find more authors you enjoy and discover more books, instead of yelling into the void at the ones who don't write fast enough for you. Peter V Brett and Brent Weeks are good to check out if you haven't yet.
Anastasia: I scream at the network or studios that cancel them. There are some channels I won't watch shows from until they've concluded, becuase they cancel shows too often. Everything has consequences. The consequence of disappointing me is that I am less likely to read the next series you write.
Alex: If they want future business from me, they do. That's how a business works.
Nbhr: the expectation was a completed series in a reasonable amount of time. He hasn't fulfilled that. I am justified in my annoyance.
There is a bit of a difference between television and literature. Television production, while it may make good use of film media and draw from the work of many talented artists, has a lot in common with the production of that fat juicy steak at a Ruth's Chris that you verbally abused your waitress for delivering overcooked last weekend. These are products whose very conception takes place with the bottom line in mind, they are designed to be profitable first and foremost, and quality will always take a back seat to marketability. Good literature, like any pure, expressive art-form, should not be expected to conform to that model. This is obviously complicated by the business element that sustains authors and other professional artists, but when we start confusing writers, painters, poets etc. with the short order cook who fucked up our dinner, something has gone seriously wrong. I'm not saying that people have no right to be annoyed (though I'm not sure there's any 'justice' in your annoyance), but people should understand that writers generally don't 'blow off' deadlines because they are lazy or because they lack respect for you and the rest of their readership, and they don't make you wait 5-6 years between releases because they are sadistic and cruel--and they might be, at that, but that isn't why. No, no... Delays occur because the writing process is unpredictable, and because writers are sometimes unwell--and sometimes, often, mentally unwell. AND... because, in many authors' cases, they have impossibly high standards (which is probably why they have a readership in the first place). OR, in G.R.R.M.'s case, because he spent all year getting ready for comic-con (hehehe). It's always good to keep in mind that you are talking about an art-form (as easy as that might be to forget as these books are shoved down your throat along with every other corporate product). And you're absolutely correct: the customer has every right to complain, protest, boycott, do some light internet-bullying, or don a white robe and a little pointy hat and burn a cross--but that doesn't mean you aren't going to look like an asshole while you're doing it.
I hope the people who think the author owes them nothing, get nothing.
Except you didn't order a steak. You didn't order anything. Scott never even gave you a menu.
Scott said, "Heeeey guys. I have some things i need to work out, but I might be having a BBQ soon, and you can have some steak when its done!"
There's no promises here. He never said, "Hey, come to my backyard BBQ THIS weekend for steak!" You never made an order...or if you did, you were stupid to do so.
Sit down, shut up, and wait patiently for an invitation to the BBQ like everyone else.
russell you are 100% correct on all points
Really not, Arthur. Russell, if you did even a scrap of research into the delays in this series you'd be aware that Scott Lynch struggles with clinical depression. I doubt, from your previous comments, that this will spark any empathy in you, but it should at least cause you to cut the man a bit of slack, for goodness' sake. Try finding some patience in your life, why don't you? He's not doing this stuff on purpose.
Also... I have very little sympathy with those of you whining about a gap of eight years between books. Fans have been waiting on the last of Diane Duane's Tale of the Five quartet for more than twice that long as of summer 2021 (it'll be twenty years come next year!), and we're not moaning at her about it, because we understand that the books that make more money are a higher priority to her publishers, and her cats need feeding, and that's okay.
If you haven't got the patience to wait for Thorn of Emberlain, go find some other authors to occupy yourself in the meantime. That's what the rest of us do!
Dude, I commented in December, and this was the best insult you could come up with months later? Congrats.
James, I just saw your comment yesterday, obviously.
Oh good god, am I now going to have to explain that was a joke. Not the sharpest knife are you.
Jokes are supposed to have punchlines and be funny, not just like random statements. I don't understand your avant garde comedy style.
I'm going to guess you don't understand a lot of things.
I'm sure you could fill infinite volumes with the things I don't understand. I hope I never have the hubris to believe I know anywhere approaching everything.
"I'm sure you could fill infinite volumes with the things I don't understand."
Yes.
I won't presume what you understand or don't. You can do that for yourself.
lol, you're a prick. I could explain it to you, but I'd need an industrial drill to get through that thick skull and it would still be a wasted effort. Writing requires effort that you don't seem to understand, so please, lose interest, vow to never read any of his books again, take up gardening, whatever. You didn't order shit and you sure as hell are not going to get it this way.
Russell, you make some fine points and use an analogy that seems valid at the surface. But I'd like to respectfully point out a flaw in your analogy: when you pay for a steak and they say it will be 20 minutes, there is a clear expectation that is set. However, that is equivalent to paying a book, for example, on Amazon and getting it delivered to you in reasonable time. When you buy book 1, it isn't shipped with a promise of delivery of book 2. That is where you're wrong. So the true equivalent of pressuring authors as if we are entitled for a next timely release, is this: you walk into a restaurant you ate at 2 years ago, expecting to be served the same kind of steak in the same amount of time even if it is a Sunday and the chef is in the hospital for an appendectomy. Think about it.
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Brendan
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Jan 05, 2017 08:05AM
Calls people idiots and then compares constructing a 500 page fantasy novel to grilling up a steak.
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Brendan: It's called an analogy. They don't have to be of similar scope, only of similar structure. If you had a good English teacher, you might've learned this. Maybe you should take some remedial post-secondary education classes at your local community college; you obviously need it.
Russell, actually they are not our bitch and they do not rely on us as customers. Do you think that there is a financial motivation for Rothfuss or GRRM to write another book in a timely matter? These authors are under no obligation to us as readers at this point. If you are fed up with any delays then simply take a stand that you will not read their future novels. These authors don't need our money any longer at this point so any further book they publish should be a welcome gift.
Aron: If you say so, man. I'm pretty sure they want the money.
And quite frankly, if they don't want the money, that's fine. I still have a right to be pissed off about it.
@Russell. It is fine that you are annoyed and it is also ok that you loose interest. No one argues with that. The only thing people complain about that you feel that you should vent your frustration at the author. If your biggest threat against the author is that you would loose interest - loose it already. In my experience however most people don't loose interest. They are very interested and just frustrated.
But then we are back to you, as the consumer, not being entitled to anything. You don't have a right to a new book or to a timely delivery. Your analogy with the steak is also wrong, as you didn't "order" a new book, nor did the author take your order nor promise you a certain delivery. By the very nature of writing, this is simply not possible.
So - just calm down, wait for the next book. And if you need something to do - reread the first 3. After all, they are excellent.
I think you have a fair point, Russell. While the person who placed this question in the first place did not do so in a way which inspires sympathy with them at all, BECAUSE WHO EVER GIVES A F*** ABOUT ANYONE WHO TYPES LIKE THIS?, the underlying point is that when a book that is part of a series is announced to be published at a certain time, it should be reasonably expected that it will be published around then - perhaps a little delayed, but within a reasonable time. If that time is not accurate and is the result of publishers or book sites making stuff up, then the author's own information should reflect that. A lot of people will not agree with analogy of the steak, due to the skill and effort required to write a (good) book. However, with a steak, if you are waiting for an hour you are rightly annoyed. With a book, the time will go up considerably, but waiting a couple of years is not unreasonable. Three years perhaps begins to stretch things, and after that one begins to wonder what the hell is going on. Now, this is only so in a series. This does not happen in stand alone books. Wow... I really wish author X would put out a new book. I have not read anything by them for AGES. I know that feeling. However, perhaps they got tired of writing, perhaps they are researching something new, perhaps they have some personal issues to deal with, perhaps they are suffering from writers block, perhaps they are enjoying their pay check and spending a few years on a beach and living a life. Whatever. However, when this happens in the middle of a series - and fantasy is a genre which trilogies and longer abound - then there is a compact between the writer and the reader that they will produce the whole of the story in a reasonable period of time. Stand alone books do not have this. Series do. So, to those people who say that we are not ordering the book, I say that in fact we are. Based on the sales of the previous books, publishers will extend advances to writers to produce the full series. This money came from the readers. This is the compact.Authors are not our bitches, but neither should we treated like bitches for being foolish enough to start reading a series with the reasonable expectation that it will be finished within our lifetimes. Now, in my opinion Lynch does not fall into this category. There was quite a long wait for the Republic of Thieves after a short gap between Lies and Red Seas, which was a bit odd, as we generally expect books to come out at a similar pace - be it one a year, every two years, or every four years. There are well known reasons for this delay and it was quite brave of the author to open his personal life to the public to let us know what the issues were. If Thorn comes out somewhere between the two, I shall be perfectly happy. The current wait does not seem excessive at this stage - and I could probably wait a further year happily enough. Beyond that, I will begin to get frustrated and that frustration may affect my enjoyment of the next book, which in turn may result in my feeling like abandoning the series, which if I am representative of a portion of the reading base means a drop in sales, which could mean a direct loss to the author - we return to the compact.
Now, as I said, for me Lynch has not reached this point yet, and I totally agree with a number of people in that I would rather see a really good book and wait longer than see a crappy book sooner. There is a law of diminishing returns here and at some point the graph curve no longer means the benefit is going to meet the waiting. When this exactly will differ for different people - but I am forced to remember that there are supposed to be a further three in this series following Thorn and if we say 4 years between books, then I am looking at a good twelve years before I get to finish this series. There are a lot of authors out there who seem to have this problem more significantly, and I certainly hope that Lynch does not join them. He may not be the fastest writer, but I am currently with him - unlike a couple of other authors I have largely abandoned due to becoming disillusioned with the ridiculous wait for the books and when the next part finally does arrive it fails to meet any sort of standard at all. I know someone who refuses to read any series unless they have been published in full. I do not want to become this kind of person, but I must say there is a benefit in knowing that when you sit down to something that you know you will be able to finish it... One of my greatest literary sorrows is the late, underappreciated Hugh Cook only wrote ten books in his Chronicles of an Age of Darkness series, and never got to write more due to first the publisher failing to pick him up for more and then later his untimely death.
So walk out and don't return. You haven't paid for this book yet, Lynch owes you nothing.
Anastasia: That's one opinion. Another opinion is that he sold the thing as a series of books, which implies a completion and reasonable timeliness. I am with Brandon Sanderson on this one; if you do a series, you set an expectation and you should honor that expectation.
Russell's simplistic, capitalistic, uncompassionate, and entitled comment is just...sad. You're a sad person, Russell, and I'm sorry for whoever hurt you.
Russell - Series end prematurely all the time. Do you scream at TV writers whose shows get cancelled without another season? Authors who die and leave series unfinished? You get the book you pay for, when you pay for it. You hope there will be more, but you're not paying for a promise of more. That's why you can't pre-order books before they're written.Brandon Sanderson is a brilliant author, who I'm also a huge fan of, and since he's incredibly prolific, he's a good one to like if you read quickly. I'd suggest you use this time to find more authors you enjoy and discover more books, instead of yelling into the void at the ones who don't write fast enough for you. Peter V Brett and Brent Weeks are good to check out if you haven't yet.
Anastasia: I scream at the network or studios that cancel them. There are some channels I won't watch shows from until they've concluded, becuase they cancel shows too often. Everything has consequences. The consequence of disappointing me is that I am less likely to read the next series you write.Alex: If they want future business from me, they do. That's how a business works.
Nbhr: the expectation was a completed series in a reasonable amount of time. He hasn't fulfilled that. I am justified in my annoyance.
There is a bit of a difference between television and literature. Television production, while it may make good use of film media and draw from the work of many talented artists, has a lot in common with the production of that fat juicy steak at a Ruth's Chris that you verbally abused your waitress for delivering overcooked last weekend. These are products whose very conception takes place with the bottom line in mind, they are designed to be profitable first and foremost, and quality will always take a back seat to marketability. Good literature, like any pure, expressive art-form, should not be expected to conform to that model. This is obviously complicated by the business element that sustains authors and other professional artists, but when we start confusing writers, painters, poets etc. with the short order cook who fucked up our dinner, something has gone seriously wrong. I'm not saying that people have no right to be annoyed (though I'm not sure there's any 'justice' in your annoyance), but people should understand that writers generally don't 'blow off' deadlines because they are lazy or because they lack respect for you and the rest of their readership, and they don't make you wait 5-6 years between releases because they are sadistic and cruel--and they might be, at that, but that isn't why. No, no... Delays occur because the writing process is unpredictable, and because writers are sometimes unwell--and sometimes, often, mentally unwell. AND... because, in many authors' cases, they have impossibly high standards (which is probably why they have a readership in the first place). OR, in G.R.R.M.'s case, because he spent all year getting ready for comic-con (hehehe). It's always good to keep in mind that you are talking about an art-form (as easy as that might be to forget as these books are shoved down your throat along with every other corporate product). And you're absolutely correct: the customer has every right to complain, protest, boycott, do some light internet-bullying, or don a white robe and a little pointy hat and burn a cross--but that doesn't mean you aren't going to look like an asshole while you're doing it.
I hope the people who think the author owes them nothing, get nothing.
Except you didn't order a steak. You didn't order anything. Scott never even gave you a menu.Scott said, "Heeeey guys. I have some things i need to work out, but I might be having a BBQ soon, and you can have some steak when its done!"
There's no promises here. He never said, "Hey, come to my backyard BBQ THIS weekend for steak!" You never made an order...or if you did, you were stupid to do so.
Sit down, shut up, and wait patiently for an invitation to the BBQ like everyone else.
russell you are 100% correct on all points
Really not, Arthur. Russell, if you did even a scrap of research into the delays in this series you'd be aware that Scott Lynch struggles with clinical depression. I doubt, from your previous comments, that this will spark any empathy in you, but it should at least cause you to cut the man a bit of slack, for goodness' sake. Try finding some patience in your life, why don't you? He's not doing this stuff on purpose. Also... I have very little sympathy with those of you whining about a gap of eight years between books. Fans have been waiting on the last of Diane Duane's Tale of the Five quartet for more than twice that long as of summer 2021 (it'll be twenty years come next year!), and we're not moaning at her about it, because we understand that the books that make more money are a higher priority to her publishers, and her cats need feeding, and that's okay.
If you haven't got the patience to wait for Thorn of Emberlain, go find some other authors to occupy yourself in the meantime. That's what the rest of us do!
Dude, I commented in December, and this was the best insult you could come up with months later? Congrats.
James, I just saw your comment yesterday, obviously.
Oh good god, am I now going to have to explain that was a joke. Not the sharpest knife are you.
Jokes are supposed to have punchlines and be funny, not just like random statements. I don't understand your avant garde comedy style.
I'm going to guess you don't understand a lot of things.
I'm sure you could fill infinite volumes with the things I don't understand. I hope I never have the hubris to believe I know anywhere approaching everything.
"I'm sure you could fill infinite volumes with the things I don't understand."Yes.
I won't presume what you understand or don't. You can do that for yourself.
lol, you're a prick. I could explain it to you, but I'd need an industrial drill to get through that thick skull and it would still be a wasted effort. Writing requires effort that you don't seem to understand, so please, lose interest, vow to never read any of his books again, take up gardening, whatever. You didn't order shit and you sure as hell are not going to get it this way.
Russell, you make some fine points and use an analogy that seems valid at the surface. But I'd like to respectfully point out a flaw in your analogy: when you pay for a steak and they say it will be 20 minutes, there is a clear expectation that is set. However, that is equivalent to paying a book, for example, on Amazon and getting it delivered to you in reasonable time. When you buy book 1, it isn't shipped with a promise of delivery of book 2. That is where you're wrong. So the true equivalent of pressuring authors as if we are entitled for a next timely release, is this: you walk into a restaurant you ate at 2 years ago, expecting to be served the same kind of steak in the same amount of time even if it is a Sunday and the chef is in the hospital for an appendectomy. Think about it.
