Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen spoiler thread
It occurred to me that it might be useful and amusing to set up a thread where people who had already read the book (currently in eARC only) could talk to each other about it freely, and the spoiler-sensitive could safely steer clear. So, you speed readers (the book took me 4 years to write, you know...), this comment space is yours.
The book may be seen at:
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2892-gent...
if you missed the note. Four free sample chapters are up there.
***
Meanwhile, someone had asked about the audio version -- there will be one, from Blackstone Audio, due to release simultaneously with the hardcover on February 2, 2016.
http://www.blackstonelibrary.com/cata...
The downloadable version, which is 99% of my audiobook sales, does not yet have a page on downpour.com but I expect one will appear closer to time. I'm not sure what the lead-time is over on that e-arm. (I know they can't have recorded it yet, because they won't have the final version in hand for several more weeks.)
***
Later: It also occurs to me this thread could be used by folks to report typos. I already have "as she forced herself though what had seemed the endless gauntlet"... Feel free to mention any others below.
Ta, L.
Later still: The file has gone to the printer, so the shop is now closed for further typo reports. Thanks, all!
Ta, L.
The book may be seen at:
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-2892-gent...
if you missed the note. Four free sample chapters are up there.
***
Meanwhile, someone had asked about the audio version -- there will be one, from Blackstone Audio, due to release simultaneously with the hardcover on February 2, 2016.
http://www.blackstonelibrary.com/cata...
The downloadable version, which is 99% of my audiobook sales, does not yet have a page on downpour.com but I expect one will appear closer to time. I'm not sure what the lead-time is over on that e-arm. (I know they can't have recorded it yet, because they won't have the final version in hand for several more weeks.)
***
Later: It also occurs to me this thread could be used by folks to report typos. I already have "as she forced herself though what had seemed the endless gauntlet"... Feel free to mention any others below.
Ta, L.
Later still: The file has gone to the printer, so the shop is now closed for further typo reports. Thanks, all!
Ta, L.
I was not surprised that Aral and Cordelia had some interesting things going on in the background. The clues to that were pretty well laid in the beginning with the discussion of Aral's past and the fact that he married a Betan.I was surprised by the long relationship that Jole represented. Which I think was the point. After the viewpoint had shifted to Miles and company, the audience is subject to all of the same precautions that the principals took to keep their relationship quiet for political reasons if nothing else.
For me, that quietly proud "Was bisexual, now he's monogamous" from Barrayar. Even smug. Oh, well, turns out Atticus Finch was a racist as well...
Louann wrote: "For me, that quietly proud "Was bisexual, now he's monogamous" from Barrayar. Even smug. Oh, well, turns out Atticus Finch was a racist as well..."That was 20 YEARS before Oliver came into their lives. Things change. People change. Cordelia obviously made it known she wouldn't mind.
I'm really struggling with your comment. I'm trying to figure out what you are linking Atticus Finch's racism to in this story.
I might have been happier if it were spelled out that Cordelia gave prior consent. Sleeping with your secretary while your wife is out of town does not have happy connotations. A bit of "Surprise! Oh, and you're on damage control duty" feel. I'm trying to be a good reader/fan/sport, but I still feel a loss. I'm amazed Miles doesn't feel it too. I may have overstated the Atticus Finch part, but it does remind me of a P&P sequel I declined to read because it starts off with Mr. Darcy grown indifferent to his wife. I expect getting them back Together was the whole point of the book, but I still didn't want to go there.So, testing the ground underfoot with new caution: when Miles didn't sleep with the geisha in Cryoburn, was that a "I don't do that" moment or a "I don't feel like/need to do that this time" moment?
Re Atticus: he seemed to be one kind of person, as potrayed by Gregory Peck, and he turned out to have different principles.
It's a bit interesting to me to see some of negative reactions to Aral and Oliver because a giant theme of this book was essentially, "Your heroes are only human after all." And that revelation does not always sit well with a particular hero's supporters.Though I do suspect that at some point, Cordelia being Cordelia, had noticed her husband's interest in other men who fit a certain mold, and initiated a very Betan conversation with Aral giving permission for him to pursue his attraction. Aral was appropriately embarrassed and horrified, but when Oliver came along, was probably glad for that discussion.
I also suspect it was Cordelia who first suggested to Oliver Aral's birthday present when he joined them on Sergyar.
I had to restrain myself from going back and starting the entire series again, to fill in the lovely little new tidbits along the way. I loved the "mature" romance, which so very clearly says that life goes on (not just for relationships, but their discussions about career are important as well), and the gorgeous interactions between them. I had no idea what to expect going in, and was delighted every step of the way. Wonderful, thank you Lois!
I suspect that part was left vague on purpose. Oliver won't tell Cordelia how he and Aral started. I do feel, though, that Aral and Cirdelia's relationship was always so honest that nothing could have blown it. Cordelia kept him sane in the crazy world he was forced to inhabit.
Not that Miles is in any way a Mary Sue, but I really do love the way you have managed to portray him from other people's points of view from time to time, and in this book particularly, showing up his faults. In the middle of a Miles POV narrative, the reader gets taken along with the Miles view of things (probably rather like people in Miles's actual presence), and the view of him from the outside is delightfully refreshing.
Oops I posted on LiveJournal (though it wasn't spoiler-y).I think the one line (out of the many many snork-worthy lines) that sticks with me most of all is "Sturdy baby!" So perfectly *non-gendered*.
Of course, it was always my suspicion that her daughter(s) might one day be upset to realize Cordelia waited *on purpose* until after their father had died before bringing them into the world. I did in fact say at one point that I would hate /y/o/u/ Cordelia if she deliberately deprived a daughter of Aral Vorkosigan as a father.
Why no, I'm not projecting a thing, why do you ask?
Although...I guess I can *perhaps* understand him not wanting to put another child in the line of fire, considering what had befallen Miles.
I deeply deeply appreciated the inclusion of realio trulio bisexual characters, considering that vast swathes of straights and gays don't believe they exist. Although, if a person is a) turned on by males and also b) turned on by women, what the heck else would you describe that as, but "bisexual"?
Leslie wrote: "Oops I posted on LiveJournal (though it wasn't spoiler-y).I think the one line (out of the many many snork-worthy lines) that sticks with me most of all is "Sturdy baby!" So perfectly *non-gender..."
Since it was Cordelia's plan for Aral to live to 110 (at least), I don't think one can call that "waiting on purpose". Though by the time this book opens, it's certainly become "not waiting any damn longer to get her own way dammit finally." :-)
Given the Vorkosigan penchant for both charisma and melodrama, I have no doubt that the future teen years around Port Nightingale are going to be interesting times for all concerned. Though as a father/father-figure/stepfather, I expect Jole is going to be a source of sanity.
Ta, L.
I have a question if this is a typo- several times cordelia I believe refers various peoples as clots is it supposed to be clots or clods?once where cordelia refer's to her betan's clot's betrayal in chapter 5
and once in referring to the electorate to finally get rid of the clot chap 12
i think there were several more references that as I read the word clot i autocorrected in my head to clod
Brandy wrote: "I have a question if this is a typo- several times cordelia I believe refers various peoples as clots is it supposed to be clots or clods?once where cordelia refer's to her betan's clot's betrayal..."
Clot is intended. (Although clod is close in meaning as well as spelling.)
Ta, L.
Lois wrote: "Brandy wrote: "I have a question if this is a typo- several times cordelia I believe refers various peoples as clots is it supposed to be clots or clods?once where cordelia refer's to her betan's ..."
good to know, although I suspect my brain will continue to autocorrect it
Does Aurelia (and the rest of the names for Cordelia's girls) have symbolism I'm not catching?Also - how is Jole pronounced? I've always wondered. Does it rhyme with prole? Or is it more a French pronunciation with a hard a sound?
Reading through less frantically a second time, will watch for typos for you - most of what I caught the first time has been mentioned already.
A fun read all around. Once I got over the surprise of Oliver, it made sense to me that they could be a discreet trio like that. Now I need to go back looking for hints.I had tremendous fun imagining everyone receiving the messages from Cordelia.
Gregor: Less surprise than most as I expect a trip by Cordelia to the genebank would have made it into the Impsec reports. Perhaps a bit of surprise at the eggshell part and then once he realizes what all Miles doesn't know, some amusement at his foster-brother's expense.
Miles: Wait? What? Quietly has kittens at the thought of sibs at this late date. Calms down. Six? Well, I have six. That means eight of us in total....I wonder if I can talk Ekaterine into that full dozen? Sisters? I've got to check this out....
Mark: Good for her; she's always wanted a genetic empire. I wonder if she'll quit pestering us about grandchildren for a while.
Alys and Simon: Goodness! At her age? Well, she is Betan.
Ivan: Oh, God...MORE of those hyperactive creatures! The Nexus isn't going to be big enough!
Kerry wrote: "Does Aurelia (and the rest of the names for Cordelia's girls) have symbolism I'm not catching?Also - how is Jole pronounced? I've always wondered. Does it rhyme with prole? Or is it more a French..."
Aurelia is as close as Cordelia (and I) could come to a feminine version of "Aral".
Nile is, iirc, Ekaterin's middle name, so probably intended to honor her. Cordelia is a little peeved that Miles snitched "Simone" before she could grab it.
Jole does indeed rhyme with prole -- which suggests scurrilous limericks about the pair from someone, but not me tonight, too tired.
Ta, L.
Christopher wrote: "Lois wrote: "What, you missed the Great Picnic Blowup...?:-), L. "
Hahaha - I would classify that more as an exciting incident rather than a major crisis. Sorry Lois, but once you've raised the ..."
Heh.
But it was Jole's epiphany that capped that scene and made it the climax of the book, not the firestorm. A man makes a decision to choose life, and the future of the world is in that moment changed profoundly.
We won't see all the consequences, which will play out subtly for centuries to come, but they are inherent, as the seed in the fruit.
Ta, L.
I loved this story. It satisfyingly illuminates the back-story when we were all focused on Miles. Cordelia rings true at every juncture. I love it when she mutters "crap" when her granddaughter leads the surprise invasion of the Barrayaran Vorkosigans, not that she (Cordelia) doesn't love them all dearly, but it was a kind of hubris to just drop in on her like that without warning and per Oliver Jole-a stealth arrival ( per Miles, I mean). And, Septuagenarian sex! I love Lois' Betan sensibility about sex and "you can get over it, if you really wanted to" attitude. Lois is a National Treasure and Long May She Write.
my mind just keeps returning to cetagandan haut worries as expressed by the adults on board the prince serge. I was rereading Cetaganda when the E-Arc popped up, maybe that's why. As I am incurably curious, I really want to read Duv's book now! There is another link between the past and the future taking root there I think.
Possible typo: Ch. 11, "Scientific excitement at the U. of K., it seemed, had edged over into scientific hypomania," should that be hypermania?
For me one interesting bit of the book is something that is not in it. I have sometimes wondered if, after Aral's death, Cordelia would ever tell Miles the truth of the Escobar invasion, she being by then presumably the last living holder of that secret. If nothing else he would need to know the possible consequences should, say, Cordelia ever be kidnapped or arrested and subjected to fast penta interrogation.
William wrote: "Am I the only one who does not know where the name Kosigan came from?"It took me a minute to remember, too. It's Vorkosigan without the military caste prefix 'Vor' in front of it.
Gordon wrote: "For me one interesting bit of the book is something that is not in it. I have sometimes wondered if, after Aral's death, Cordelia would ever tell Miles the truth of the Escobar invasion, she being ..."
Would it still be relevant with Ezar, Serg and Aral all dead? Who would care? It would maybe hurt Gregor personally, but politically it wouldn't make waves, I think.
Would it still be relevant with Ezar, Serg and Aral all dead? Who would care? It would maybe hurt Gregor personally, but politically it wouldn't make waves, I think.
Serendi wrote: "Possible typo: Ch. 11, "Scientific excitement at the U. of K., it seemed, had edged over into scientific hypomania," should that be hypermania?"Nope. It sounds like it ought to be, I agree, but that's not the usage.
As per dictionary.com:
noun, Psychiatry.
1.
a mania of low intensity.
Ta, L.
Makes sense - I'm not sure why I didn't think of hypomania as more intense than excitement. Oh well....
As someone with a PhD in Biochemistry, thank you, thank you for science that is clear and correct. Sadly too often I feel as if I'm reading a deranged science MadLib. I can't imagine how challenging this book was to write. I must admit I started out feeling like someone had taken a beloved movie and suddenly spliced in new scenes to create a completely different story. There was some internal resistance on that, but as the book progressed I instead came around to feeling like I'd only seen a sanitized G-rated version before and now I had the full adult picture of the story. Well done on leading us through that journey.
Separately, I loved Oliver Jole. He is a wonderful character and I rooted for him from the beginning. I felt like I'd gone through grief therapy with Cordelia and Jole. I finished this book in a bittersweet place, both missing Aral more and delighted that Cordelia and especially Jole could be happy in the metaphorical sunlight.
Jessica wrote: "As someone with a PhD in Biochemistry, thank you, thank you for science that is clear and correct. Sadly too often I feel as if I'm reading a deranged science MadLib. I can't imagine how challeng..."
Thank you for the kind words about the science! I do care (and I do get help), but a lot of reviewers seem to shoot right past that aspect of my works.
Ta, L.
Thank you for the kind words about the science! I do care (and I do get help), but a lot of reviewers seem to shoot right past that aspect of my works.Considering that a three-parent baby due to mitochondria donation and the CRISPR/Cas9 discovery, many of the concepts you're covering are very cutting edge. It's fascinating to see them play out. Some of these may not be in our too distant future.
I loved the book, but now I need a short story about Cordelia coming back home and having to calm down Simon (and convince Oliver that his head will stay attached);)
I just sprinted my way through this, and really enjoyed it.One odd thing I noticed - about halfway through, I found myself missing women friends on Cordelia's behalf. After the way she cultivated women friends in Barrayar, she felt oddly isolated. Then she messaged Alys, and thought about talking to Ekatrin, and started talking to Ivy, and it was okay.
But it was a subtle buildup of tension, Cordelia's isolation, which was nicely resolved just as it began to itch.
Grown-up indeed.
Serendi wrote: "Makes sense - I'm not sure why I didn't think of hypomania as more intense than excitement. Oh well...."Possibly because of the word-echo with "hypothyroid" and like terms.
Ta, L.
William wrote: "But why are all the kids to be named Kosigan?"Lois wrote: "William wrote: "Am I the only one who does not know where the name Kosigan came from?"
It's Russian, I suspect you know by now. I first ran across it attached to Andrei Kosigan, ambassador to the..."
The "Vor" is dropped under some circumstances. For example, at the Academy Miles was "Cadet Kosigan".
In this case, the idea would be to honor Aral without the kids becoming Vor.
"Such a sturdy baby" - heartbreaking, after fragile Miles.
Lois wrote: "Serendi wrote: "Makes sense - I'm not sure why I didn't think of hypomania as more intense than excitement. Oh well...."Possibly because of the word-echo with "hypothyroid" and like terms.
Ta, L."
excitement < hypomania (mild mania)< mania < hypermania (extreme mania)
Christopher wrote: "I really enjoyed the book - Cordelia being one of my favourite viewpoint characters - and even though I usually get annoyed by 'retcons', I thought the revelation of the Aral-Cordelia-Oliver Triad ..."Dittoes on this, I enjoyed the Picnic Blowup, but more in the sense of the Bug Butter Fight, not as a major event. I was sort of expecting an earthquake or eruption. A very good book, though much more introspective from the character's perspective than others. CVA and ACC remain my favorites, though of course CVA is my favorite by anyone. Still, I read it before the new 1632 series book (the only things I buy in eArc are Vorkosigan and 1632) and I don't regret it. :)
One minor quibble: there is a reference to the Time of Isolation being about 100 years before. It's about 100 years since the Cetagandan Invasion, according to Piotr being a general at 22 and dying at about 95 or so thirty years before. It's always seemed like there was a ten to twenty year gap between rediscovery and invasion.
Typo hunt==All communications were routed through his office while Jole was supposedly off-duty; in theory, Bobrik ought let nothing through this filter but emergencies and personal messages, and any notification of emergencies should come immediately by wristcom.==
=ought let nothing= perhaps ++ought to let nothing++
Little Egret in Walton-on-Thames
==Although by far the most dangerous animal on the planet was an invasive species of chimpanzee. ==This caught me on my first read - shades of elephants.
++Although by far the most dangerous animal on the planet was an invasive species closely related to the chimpanzee.++
Typo? The goals were three baskets sited around the field according the evil ingenuity of the crew laying it out.Missing a to?
Little wrote: "==Although by far the most dangerous animal on the planet was an invasive species of chimpanzee. ==This caught me on my first read - shades of elephants.
++Although by far the most dangerous ani..."
Not according to Frans de Waal...
:-), L.
Lois wrote: "Little wrote: "==Although by far the most dangerous animal on the planet was an invasive species of chimpanzee. ==This caught me on my first read - shades of elephants.
++Although by far the mos..."
Lois> Not according to Frans de Waal...
{Wiki} "With his students, he has also worked on elephants, which are increasingly featured in his writings."
So Money, Sex amd Elephants.
Typo question - I assumed on first read this was a joke but I thought it worth double-checking - Ch. 15, the cider is "full of vitamins and animals".
Serendi wrote: "Typo question - I assumed on first read this was a joke but I thought it worth double-checking - Ch. 15, the cider is "full of vitamins and animals"."No, that was a joke. Based on my experience of Asturian untreated hard cider on a trip to Spain, some years back. Yummy but scary.
Ta, L.
I think I've found a conceptual 'typo':"You do realize there are more than three categories, all on one axis, for human sexual preferences, don’t you? I think you may just be suffering from a shortage of categories.”
“And here I thought I was plagued with too damned many. More than one axis? [snip]
More than one axis isn't mentioned; in fact, a single axis is specified. I think perhaps the first 'categories' should be changed to 'axes', and the comma and next clause deleted entirely.
I also thought it odd that Jole describes Cordelia looking so devastated when she returned alone from Aral's state funeral. Jole was also at the funeral as pallbearer - did he return earlier and separately for some reason?
Matthew wrote: "I think I've found a conceptual 'typo':"You do realize there are more than three categories, all on one axis, for human sexual preferences, don’t you? I think you may just be suffering from a shor..."
I believe that the point is that Jole is thinking in terms of three categories on a single axis - gay/bi/straight, while Cordelia is suggesting multiple axes, such as straight/gay, dom/sub, etc. And Jole's primary sexual attraction isn't focused on men vs. women, but on people in authority.
I think you're probably right, but it seems a very awkward wording.
Another possible typo, chapter 6:"I see.” He swallowed his tilted grin, and more tea.
I suspect a verb is needed - he drank, gulped, swallowed, etc. more tea.
Lois,You mentioned in an early comment that you didn't write about the poly relationship before due partly to commercial viability reasons.
Are you able to share why you felt you could write this story now? I'm assuming Baen was supportive, since it's being published. :)
Matthew wrote: I also thought it odd that Jole describes Cordelia looking so devastated when she returned alone from Aral's state funeral. Jole was also at the funeral as pallbearer - did he return earlier and separately for some reason? Yes, he did; he had to get straight back and run Sergyar Fleet/the planet in the absence of all its Viceroys; Cordelia had to stay and deal with a lot of estate and other legal stuff.
Death. More complicated than you can imagine. (Speaking as an executor, once, with no desire to repeat the experience.)
Ta, L.
Hey, what’s wrong with a Radial Kaiju? Not counting the Kaiju itself it would also mean the Sergyaran (sp?) scietists could return, save the world – and maybe finally get some decent funding! (Hey, it’s SF, right?)
:-D