MR Round Table: An App that Facilitates Marital Affairs?

Leandra Medine: Ashley Madison is an app that facilitates affairs. It’s currently newsworthy because it’s pursuing an IPO on the London Stock Exchange. Important to define is the word ‘affair,’ which tends to insinuate that both parties in a relationship are unaware of the other’s infidelity. I think the question that immediately comes up for me is how far is too far to go with your genius app idea? I think that by all definitions of immoral, adultery is high up there.

In Judaism, one of three sins you are commanded to favor is death over committing adultery. But my point is not only whether or not it’s okay that such an app exists, but that it is thriving. The app currently supports over 34,000,000 users.

Amelia Diamond: I think there’s something to your point about, “How far is too far to go with your genius idea.” It’s almost like digital cigarettes or something. Just because there’s a hole in the market doesn’t mean it needs to be filled. I prefer monogamy, personally, but back to our round table, “You Do You,” I think if a couple who identifies as polyamorous want to swing to spice up their sex life, or have a threesome, that’s cool. Great. As long as it’s consensual and agreed upon by all parties, who cares?

In the Sex and the City movie, I remember Miranda saying, “It’s not so much the cheating, it’s the going behind my back that bothers me,” when talking about Steve’s infidelity. That’s what I find troubling about this app. If it was, invite others into your sex life, I’d be like, “Good for them. I hope everyone’s been tested.” But Ashley Madison is basically saying, “Lie to the person you’ve legally, financially, and emotionally committed yourself to.”

Esther Levy: Well that’s the problem with it right? The site is encouraging lying. It’s encouraging secrecy. The photo on the website is of a woman with a finger over her mouth as if to say, “Shh.” That’s the main issue with it. It’s not like it’s an open forum to be communicative with your spouse and experiment together. It’s advocating affairs.

I think that for generations, people have had affairs, it just wasn’t so openly spoken about. We’re in this new generation where we’re questioning whether or not marriage and monogamy for life is sustainable.

LM: I often tell people that what you look for in a partner ends up running counter to what you need in a marriage, and I think that’s exactly what you’re talking about. The passion versus the safety, or the lust versus the loyalty. The thing is though, it’s not really called an affair if it’s an agreed upon, polyamorous relationship, right?

EL: It’s okay to ask those questions. And I think that you should be having that conversation with your partner. These are things that people think about and they’re grounded in a lot of truth. We should be open and honest — it’s that transparency that defines our generation. This app does not advocate that. That’s the difference. Ashley Madison runs counter to what our generation is about, which is being open and honest and asking questions and speaking about things that maybe make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. The fact that this is rooted in lies and moreover, secrecy, is what makes it feel so wrong.

LM: One of the huge selling points is that your information is so incredibly safe that nobody will find out that you’re using the app. It would be one thing I guess, if they were marketing themselves as a swingers app, right? I keep coming back to the question of, why is it okay? Why is there no conversation on the app’s immorality? Or maybe there is one that I just haven’t found it — I read somewhere that the founder doesn’t tell people what he does. But it’s about to go public, right? What does this mean for future generations of humanity?

AD: Businesses do shitty things every single day for the sake of making money. People deal drugs that kill people in order to make money.

LM: That also presents the question of, “What happens in the wake of such blinding self-awareness?” We were talking about this when we spoke about political correctness, and how The Fat Jewish gets away with things that others wouldn’t because he presents himself knowing full well that what he says is often offensive. He provokes for the sake of comedy, and we will still listen. This app is not trying to market itself as anything but a home wrecker. It’s not hiding anything. Does it get a free pass for that?

AD: But it also goes back to our conversation, does “You Do You” perpetuate narcissism? In this case, 100% it does.

LM: How do you mean?

AD: If your friend is on this app because, “I’m gonna do me,” in no way is he or she considering their partner. When you’re in a relationship, you’re half of a whole. When you cheat, you completely disregard the other person.

I have friends that have cheated and I hope that I wouldn’t, but it happens. However, to actively seek it out — I can’t wrap my head around that. Did you guys watch that show The Affair? It’s definitely a good example of how two people who love their partners are — for whatever reason — seeking something external. And maybe you don’t feel like you can tell your partner that you’re seeking something external for fear of hurting them.

From a human nature perspective, I can understand it, but not in this way, where an app is facilitating it.

EL: If you’re in a relationship and you have these feelings — well, it’s very easy for a 23-year-old who’s been married for one year to sit here and say, “I can’t understand why people would do this” — but these are feelings that most people grapple with at some point in their lives.

AD: I know this is weird but in Downton Abby — 

EL: You are always quoting Downton Abby.

AD: It’s the only TV show I watch! But Lady and Lord Grantham got into a huge fight because Lady Grantham was engaged in a very serious flirtation with this art dealer, and Sir Grantham caught them in the same room together right before something could have happened. But meanwhile, two seasons before he was kissing the maid! He was so mad at her and refused to come to bed and so she confronted him and said something along the lines of, “If you can honestly tell me that you’ve never engaged in even a mild flirtation with someone then fine, stay in this room. But if you can’t tell me that then you better come to bed.” He got up and went to bed with her.

EL: Right. But this is something entirely different.

AD: King Louis XV was famous for having made a woman, Lady Du Barry, his side piece. He went so far as to get someone to marry her so that she’d have a title and would be allowed to be at functions. That was an affair that was in his wife’s face — nobody could say anything about it. It just goes to show how a) it’s not necessarily tethered to our culture (this is to what Fallon was saying about our culture giving us the tools to act out) and b) that there is a power play involved.

EL: I think it’s also worth noting that we do live in the age of transparency, so I’m not surprised that an app exists to exploit that. The idea is wrong. It advocates lying and cheating and setting people up to get hurt. But from a business perspective, is it so wrong for someone to try to reap rewards from a condition that already exists? I mean, the guy didn’t invent cheating. People have been cheating forever. He’s giving them a platform to do it.

LM: This is the problem with living in a capitalist country, right? Everything is fair game if you can monetize on it meaningfully. I do wonder, though, even if he is operating his business with the utmost honesty and paying his taxes on time and sometimes overpaying, does that make it an honest and honorable business man? A benchmark to look up to?

The content of the app reminds me of what we’re cautioned against as kids with marijuana. You know when your parents tell you, “You’re going to get used to it and then you’re going to move on to cocaine and before you know it you’ll have a needle in your arm.” It does feel very much like social media has been a gateway drug: Facebook became a place for trolling, Jews called it “the new J-Date,” then along came Tinder in its various permutations and now that those resources have been exhausted, we’re talking about affair apps? If this guy does make huge money on it, number one: who is buying its stock and why (can you really look at it as a viable business model from that point of view without batting an eyelash?), and number two: will his wealth incite the next generation of sinister business handling a la Wolf of Wall Street.

You know what I mean? It’s like, you get high off of someone else’s success and then you think, “I can do this too, but I have to one up the one that came before.” Can you imagine if quick-pay apps turn into quick-steal apps?

AD: To your question on morality. Humans are immoral. We fuck up all the time.

LM: But fucking up and being moral are two different things.

AD: Right. But businesses are not humans, and they do immoral things regularly. I would argue that companies — especially ones that are about to rake in so much money — do have moral obligations. That’s why giant conglomerates are required to perform community service or give back in some way. We talk about companies’ moral obligations all of the time in fashion, like when we talk about sustainability and recycling and treating your employees well. I think that if the question is, “Is it okay for a company to put out something that is immoral?” I would argue that the answer is no.

It’s a company’s job to better society.

EL: But the fashion industry has that responsibility. Ashley Madison does not pretend to have that responsibility. It’s like the tobacco industry.

LM: This is such a direct jab at morality. Tobacco is one thing and it took years of control tests and medical and scientific research to learn that it kills and we’re seeing this happen now across the sugar industry — more and more researching is pointing towards the sugar causing the obesity and the disease and ultimately the deaths. We’re killing ourselves, yes, but that’s still technically inference. Whereas with an affair, we all know — because we experience human emotion — that to feel betrayed by someone who we’ve sworn our lives to in front of a tenured, religious, ordained figures, is soul-crushing. It’s almost worse than dying.

I don’t know what the point is, and I don’t know what the conclusion is. Maybe there’s a P.O.V that I’m not seeing here. Maybe this really is a great release for some people. Maybe this brings relationships closer together in some cases. I can’t wrap my head around it, but that doesn’t mean that no one else can.

EL: I think everyone can agree that the most important thing in a relationship is honest and open communication. If you feel like you need a release and that it might help your relationship, that’s something that you should communicate to your partner.

AD: I wonder how the CEO would react if he found out that his spouse was on the app. Would he be like, “Thanks for the download!”

EL: I bet he’s not married.

AD: Let’s look it up. [Reads founder’s bio.] Married. Says he hasn’t cheated, “yet.”

For more Round Tables, click here. 

Illustration by Kate Worum. Visit her website here, and follow her on Instagram here.